Predestined to what?

[StefanM]

I'm not this big 5-point Calvinist, so you know.

Election after salvation makes little sense. It makes it "God has chosen you because you first chose him."

Now, if the verse said, "God has chosen to grant salvation to those who choose to believe," such a concept would be rock-solid.

But the verse does not refer to a choice of a system or of a method. It refers to a choice of persons. That radically redefines the concept of choice if you take it your way.

 

[Brother Bob]

StephanM;
You know, I believe God was in the arrangements of the Bible being written and translated so we could read the written word of God. I doubt there were chapter and verses. I know in Greek, a word has several meanings so we can pick out which one fits our case the best. But all that being said, I don't think I have ever heard anyone refer to the Greek text when it comes to the sayings of Jesus Himself. I trust that God will lead me in the ways of all truth.

 

[StefanM]

My wrestling is more with the passages in the Pauline Epistles than with Jesus' words.

I have no problem in believing that Jesus died for the sins of the world and offered salvation to whosoever would come.

My biggest "wrestling" is with the election passages in Paul because they seem to address the reason why some come and others don't. I assure you, I've looked at 2 Thess 2:13 and tried to think of any grammatically feasible way of interpreting it. I can't escape the clear sense of it. I try this method on different parts of scripture--I try to let the text say what the text says with no reference to a theological system. Sometimes it comes out sounding Arminian, and sometimes Calvinist. But the election passages make little sense from an Arminian perspective, IMO.

 

[StefanM]

StephanM;
You know, I believe God was in the arrangements of the Bible being written and translated so we could read the written word of God. I doubt there were chapter and verses. I know in Greek, a word has several meanings so we can pick out which one fits our case the best. But all that being said, I don't think I have ever heard anyone refer to the Greek text when it comes to the sayings of Jesus Himself. I trust that God will lead me in the ways of all truth.

I apologize, but I'm confused as to what you're trying to say.

I haven't referred to the Greek to redefine any word.

 

[Brother Bob]

StephanM;
Please look at the Scripture the way I do and think on it for a while and see if just maybe, I might be looking at it right. The reason is, the way I believe is more in line with what our Saviour said. I cannot see Jesus saying "whosoever" and it not be what He meant. The way I study Scripture is to always refer back to what Jesus Himself said. I study Revelations that way also.

I can see how someone would take the Scripture of Eph the way you do but I had to look a little deeper to see it in harmony with Jesus.

 

[Brother Bob]

StephanM;
Sorry if I am bringing in some of the posts of other threads that are left in my mind. I have a hard time getting rid of some of them. Some use Greek words on me all the time.

But the election passages make little sense from an Arminian perspective, IMO.

It makes sense if what God chose before the world was "how He was going to save man". I know Jesus stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world.
I agree it those are hard Scriptures and so is all the double married Scriptures. Also, I have found the Law to be the deepest subject in the Bible.

 

[StefanM]

I did. I promise you, Brother Bob, I have. I've had my Greek NT out on my desk. I've been thinking about this verse for quite a bit of time, most of which trying to salvage an Arminian view of election. I realize that the word typically used for election isn't used in this passage.

At the end of the day my mind comes down to this:

Who is doing the choosing, according to these verses? Me or God?

 

[StefanM]

It makes sense if what God chose before the world was "how He was going to save man". I know Jesus stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world.
I agree it those are hard Scriptures and so is all the double married Scriptures. Also, I have found the Law to be the deepest subject in the Bible.

Oh, I've tried so hard to justify that position exegetically. I truly wish that one side could be crystal clear, and I wouldn't have to do some theological fence-sitting. Unfortunately, the direct object in these passages is generally not a plan or a system; it's people.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, You sound like you are certainly sincere StephanM and that is the most important thing and let God lead you.

Joshua, chapter 24

"15": And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[StefanM]

You are correct in that mankind has a choice. Unfortunately, that's not the issue in the election passages.

When it says "God chose you"...how can it actually mean that God chose a system into which you decided to place yourself?

 

[Brother Bob]

If God chose before the world began when he was creating man to give man a choice to accept Him or deny Him, how would that be taking anything away from God for it would be Him that did it.

The creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope.

That is exactly what that Scripture is saying.

There was when the plan was prechosen certain men prechosen to fulfill that plan such as the Apostles, the coming of Jesus, John the Baptist and Apostle Paul a chosen vessel to preach to the Gentiles.

 

[StefanM]

I don't want to get into a Greek discussion, but the "creature" is the personification of creation.

It would not be taking anything away from God. I don't bring the "Sovereignty of God" chip on my shoulder. I think God is completely sovereign under whatever system he chooses.

A few questions:
1) Since everyone is offered the choice, how many will of themselves choose God?

2) If none choose God of themselves, is not the Holy Spirit's work required?

3) What is the difference between one sinful being choosing and one sinful being rejecting? What causes the one to believe?

and a rabbit to chase...

4) What about someone born in a country where God knows that the gospel will never reach him? Does he have a choice?

 

[Brother Bob]

A few questions:
1) Since everyone is offered the choice, how many will of themselves choose God?
According to the Bible a "few". But according to the number John saw in Heaven it still is a number that no man can number. Scripture says there was a remnant under the Law and even so there will be a remnant today.

2) If none choose God of themselves, is not the Holy Spirit's work required?
Titus, chapter 2
"11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
"12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
"13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour
The Spirit is always needed for man cannot save himself but must let the Spirit lead him. Jesus stands at the door of our heart and knocks and there are many factors, mostly fear of God, fear of dying and going to a devils hell, tired of the world, belief there is a God and the choice is always there and if you choose God the Spirit will lead you to repentance and then are you "born again".
The woman who had the issue of blood? She said within herself "if I can only touch the hem of His garment I shall be made whole and push her way through the crowd to get to Jesus and then she received virtue. That kinda gives her something in it doesn’t it. Now when she got to Jesus she was not saved it still took Jesus Himself to save her but when He saw her faith, He did save her.

3) What is the difference between one sinful being choosing and one sinful being rejecting? What causes the one to believe?

and a rabbit to chase...

They love darkness rather than light because their deed were evil and neither do they come to the light lest their deeds be reproved.
This Scripture explains both those who chose God and those who chose evil.
The only way to get rid of the devil is to have the fear of God in you.

4) What about someone born in a country where God knows that the gospel will never reach him? Does he have a choice?

Revelation, chapter 14
"6": And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Hebrews, chapter 8
"11": And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

The Book of Job, chapter 32
"8": But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Titus, chapter 2
"11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
"12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
"13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
"14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I think I answered them all to the best of my ability.

 

[StefanM]

Thank you for your responses, Brother Bob.

 

[Brother Bob]

Anyone?
2 Peter, chapter 1
"5": And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

"6": And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

"7": And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

"8": For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"9": But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

"10": Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


Why would this Scripture say for brethren to make your calling and election sure if it had already been foreordained, how would they have anything to do with it?

 

[4His_glory]

Anyone?
2 Peter, chapter 1
"5": And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

"6": And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

"7": And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

"8": For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"9": But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

"10": Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


Why would this Scripture say for brethren to make your calling and election sure if it had already been foreordained, how would they have anything to do with it?

Hello Brother Bob,

The making of ones calling and election sure is our our sake, not God's. God is already sure of who His elect are, but the Christian is not always sure of his slavation and is sometimes plagued with doubts. So a believer who pursues the qualities mentioned earlier in the chapter, will produce spiritual fruit which is a "guarante to himself that he was indeended called and chosen by God to salvation. As Peter says he will never stumble. That is to say the Christian will will not be plagued with doubts and fear regarding his salvation because he sees his life producing spiritual fruit, and he will find joy in the assurance of salvation. I blieve this is the main point of the passage the Peter is writting of here.

 

[Brother Bob]

4His_Glory;
It seems that you could make it unsure also and what happens, do you lose your "elect" status?

 

[4His_glory]

4His_Glory;
It seems that you could make it unsure also and what happens, do you lose your "elect" status?

Ceartainly not. Nothing can separate me from the Love of God in Christ. Even if I am plauged by doubts I am still His.

 

[JackRUS]

Mt two cents worth

I believe that the making of our calling and election sure goes back to James 2 in that we need to make sure that we are really saved. It is similar to 2 Cor. 13:5 which states:

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in

you, except ye be reprobates?"​

As for the choosing, I believe that God makes the dynamic, ultimate choice on who gets saved (Rom. 9:15), but He does not capriciously chose some folks to get saved and the others are doomed.​

God wants us to see our own sinfulness and believe the Scriptures (Isa. 66:2) that say that we are going to hell without Christ (John 12:48) and that salvation is through Him alone (John 6:47, 14:6). So we have to make a choice as well. But our choice is dependant one God showing us mercy and giving us grace.​

I also had to comment on the Calvinist that brought up 2 Thes. 2:13 as a proof-text without mentioning verses 10-12 which state:​

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be

saved.​

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."


I gotta say that those verses make no sense in the realm of Calvinistic election.

Why is God angry that these folks don't choose to believe? And why does He have to send a "delusion" to dead people?




​

 

[Hope of Glory]

That fits all of who have been born again for "how could He quicken someone who was already alive".

The problem with Calvinist doctrine is it does not align with the teachings of Jesus and when it is against "God so loved the world" and "whosoever will" and "whosoever is athirst". If it does not align with those Scriptures then you need to start over with your studies.

The problem with both Calvinist and Arminian doctrine is that neither aligns with the teachings of Jeus completely. Both sides have to ignore a lot of Scripture.

Brother Bob is correct in stating that election does not have to do with spiritual salvation.

The calling is not unto simple spiritual salvation! It's a calling unto his Kingdom and Glory! It's about inheritance. It's a family matter.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.