Predestined to what?

[StefanM]

I also had to comment on the Calvinist that brought up 2 Thes. 2:13 as a proof-text without mentioning verses 10-12 which state:​

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be

saved.​

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."


I gotta say that those verses make no sense in the realm of Calvinistic election.

Why is God angry that these folks don't choose to believe? And why does He have to send a "delusion" to dead people?​

I'm not really a full Calvinist. On my most Calvinistic day, I'm only a 4-pointer, a Christmas Calvinist, as has been said (No-L, No-L!). Also, I'm not really sold on the T.

I'm more of a rebel to both sides. I'm really sorting a lot of this out in my mind, and I can see the strong points of both ends. For me, in general I think that the offer for universal salvation is genuine, but God knew that no one would willingly choose him (which is slightly different from being unable, hence the semi-rejection of T). God, therefore, elected a remnant. God reserves the right to be angry with those who rejected the truth because they made the choice to do so.

I promise you all, neither side is going to be happy with my a-la-carte theology!

 

[2BHizown]

T U L I P

As long as you use man's 'logic' rather than to accept what God clearly says you'll be confused and try to have it both ways!
When one reads and accepts what God clearly states in His word and doesnt try to make all the x's and o's line up in a manner that would be acceptable to our little brain, then you're on to something and you begin to clearly see what God is saying when He both commands us to believe and yet sends us to hell if we dont! Some hearts, eyes and ears He chooses to open and some He does not. Who am I to tell HIm which ones if any He can do as He pleases with.
All I can say is I both see it in scripture and believe it! God is sovereign, man is responsible!
When I read, The Sovereignty of God, AW Pink I held the book in my hand and my bible in my lap and validated every scripture used that I felt questionable! It became so clear, so easy to accept as God's will, even when I prayed and asked Him that whatever was not of His truth to please let it fall to the ground and be forgotten! I so thank Him for leading me into these truths and understand that without His help man finds them to be, "hard sayings, who can hear it?"John 6:60

 

[Brother Bob]

well, U and I , we just got about 2 to go.

 

[2BHizown]

U and I, two to go?

Meaning what?

 

[StefanM]

well, U and I , we just got about 2 to go.

:laugh: Well, I don't have a unified theological system to defend, so if you convince me scripturally why U and I must be wrong, I'll get on board!

 

[Brother Bob]

2BH;
You really hold to Eph and Romans but what about the 4 Gospels that teach "preach the Gospel to every creature and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved," come unto me all ye ends of the earth, God so loved the world, he that is athirst let him drink of the water of life freely, God is no respect of persons on and on, how come these don't bother you? Does it bother you that you have a God that chose to send the majority of creation to Hell?

I can tell you love God but so do I and countless of others and I believe in the same God you do and I intend on going to the same Heaven. Let me tell you something, the Calvinist even though they believe in the elect being prechosen, yet they preach to all and I suspect if I am right their churches are full of people that are not prechosen and will enjoy Heaven as much as those that think they are the only ones going.:tear:

 

[StefanM]

Does it bother you that you have a God that chose to send the majority of creation to Hell?

I really don't think the Arminian position fixes that, though. Whatever means God uses for election, the fact of the matter is that he allows the majority of his creation to go to hell. Ergo, God created the world knowing that doing so would result in that end. Neither system avoids that bitter pill. The only thing that avoids it is universalism, which is unbiblical.

 

[Brother Bob]

U
He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual

Mark, chapter 5
"24": And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.

"25": And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,

"26": And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,

"27": When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.

"28": For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

"29": And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.

"30": And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

"31": And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?

"32": And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.

"33": But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

"34": And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

As you can see the woman did do something and had faith before the virtue, so it was required of her to move out and that is just one for the U.


I
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist.

Revelation, chapter 3
"20": Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This is a beginning :laugh: :wavey:

 

[Brother Bob]

I really don't think the Arminian position fixes that, though. Whatever means God uses for election, the fact of the matter is that he allows the majority of his creation to go to hell. Ergo, God created the world knowing that doing so would result in that end. Neither system avoids that bitter pill. The only thing that avoids it is universalism, which is unbiblical.

No, the majority is going to be lost but at least it would be a fair God and not a prejudice one.

 

[2BHizown]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Does it bother you that you have a God that chose to send the majority of creation to Hell?

Truly, I'm so humbled and thrilled that I would be chosen! Everyone gets what they want! I want to know God and to live for HIm.
Should I be sad that others hate God and reject His gracious offer?
If I tell all I can of HIm and that they need to ask for His mercy and they strongly object the offer and HIm, I myself continue to follow HIm and obediently do as He commands, which is to preach the gospel to every creature! Thats it! They get what they want! They go to hell!
Bottom line is: What does God hold you responsible for?
Remember, YOU cannot be God. You must submit yourself to Him and His will, either now with joy or when He comes in His wrath! Thats everyones choice! Every knee WILL bow!

 

[StefanM]

Those verses may convince those who already agree with your point, but they just aren't clear-cut enough to counterbalance other passages. If you have any clear-cut verses about election or salvation, I'd be glad to hear from you.

Concerning the other post:
1) Who says God has to approach everyone equally?
2) Those who are sinners reap their just punishment--this is fair.
All of us going to hell is fair.
3) I can just see Romans 9 being thrown into the mix!
4) Is it fair for someone who has heard the gospel 500 times and believes on the 500th time when compared to the person who has heard it only once and rejected it?

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, maybe it helps to say that all those going to Hell hate God, I wouldn't know maybe they do but at least seems to me a just and fair God of Love would give all a chance.


StephanM;
One thing I would have you do it study who in Eph 2 it is talking about and remember that Israel was chosen by family and not a rebirth.

 

[2BHizown]

where from here!

I am so happy that an unworthy sinner like me could be shown God's mercy and grace that I searched and searched the scripture and continue to do so, asking His guidance!
I think prayer is of the greatest value in coming to God! Trying to balance the equation and make it 'fair' according to sinful human brains is ludicrous! Give it up, ask for His mercy and truth to be shown to you! Worked for me!
I've got a headache! I'd be glad to give a list of sound theological books that have guided me thus far into what scripture has revealed to me as 'truth'! I'm not being facetious, just tired from celebrating this 75th birthday today!! God bless!

 

[Brother Bob]

I been an ordained minister for 34 years and I didn't just start studing now.

Concerning the other post:
1) Who says God has to approach everyone equally?
God can do what He wants but He said he was a God who loved the whole world not just a few.
2) Those who are sinners reap their just punishment--this is fair.
All of us going to hell is fair.
Agree, we none deserve anything but death but that is not the question here, the question is why would God create something just to send it to hell while picking out a few to send to Heaven. I just not seem like a God who loves the whole world.
3) I can just see Romans 9 being thrown into the mix!
Yea, but the same answers are there too.
4) Is it fair for someone who has heard the gospel 500 times and believes on the 500th time when compared to the person who has heard it only once and rejected it?
Time and chance has happened to all, that does not leave anyone out and nowhere makes room for just a few prechosen.

 

[StefanM]

Sorry, I was trying to say this:

Person 1--believes in Christ on the 500th time of hearing the gospel, then dies, goes to heaven

Person 2- rejects the gospel once, never hears it again, dies, goes to hell

Is this "fair"?

There are potential arguments against Calvinism, but I personally find the "fairness" appeal unsatisfying.

 

[Brother Bob]

Isaiah, chapter 45

Chapter
Book

"21": Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

I believe in a fair and just God for sure, for he is no respect of person. There will be no big I and little you in Heaven.

 

[StefanM]

May I add to the equation:

I am by no means solidly entrenched in my position. I'm "living in the tension." To me, the doctrine of election must be addressed.

The most intriguing Arminian position I have seen is Corporate Election. If anyone wishes to discuss this, I'd love to hear it. I am definitely open to this position, though I'm not sold on it yet.

 

[Brother Bob]

Sorry but I thought that was what we were addressing. How could a God as below pick some and leave some out and fulfill the following scripture. I won't bother you with anymore on this part.

1 Peter, chapter 1
"17": And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

 

[StefanM]

One can argue that that verse refers to God's judging of works, not of salvation. But we've beat that horse to death several times.

I guess I've misunderstood your position on election, Brother Bob. Could you clarify it for me?

 

[Brother Bob]

The Church is a place for the saved not a saving machine. Corporate Election was ended when Christ did away with the old that He might establish the new. There is only one name given under Heaven where a man might me saved and that is Jesus Christ and I don't know any Old Time Baptist that believe in Corporate Election of today and if its an arminian positon that leaves me out.