Present your BEST argument for church tithing

[Bluefalcon]

Originally posted by KJVO:
This is a very interesting thread.
I do not believe that tithing is commanded for the Church, I pretty well agree with Soulman on this issue.
I do have one point to make.
If you have decided to give a set amount that week and you notice a brother in need in your church, slip the money to him instead of it going into the plate, is this wrong?
In the OT God would meet them in the temple.And the tithes of the people went to supporting the Levites and the temple.
Now we are the temple, God is in us. We are the "church" the building is where we meet that is all.
Would it displease God to give to a brother truly in need.

Hey KJVO, I have my own views but I'd like to see what other baptists are saying about your interesting question. Why not give it to the Church and let the Church give it to the man in need, maybe through the one who noticed him, maybe not?

 

[Bluefalcon]

I have another argument I just thought of and wanted to run it by you all. Tithing was going on by those who believed in God far before the Levitical law (cf. Abraham in Gn. 14:20; Jacob in 28:22), therefore it is possible that tithing, as a general number of 10% of everything being given to God, supercedes the Law and in fact is not a "law" at all. It is a principle that was established long before the Law, and therefore cannot be summarily dismissed after the Law became outdated. It is like faith that was around before the Law and should be around after the Law, because it has nothing to do with the Law as a principle.

Cheers, Bluefalcon

 

[Soulman]

KJVO,
It would not displease God for tou to give a portion to a brother in need. We are to give to further God's work. While the church needs our support we are not bound to O.T. storehouse tithing. You can give to anything that promotes God's work. Just remember that the church needs money to pay it's bills and support it's ministries.

Posted by Bluefalcon:I have another argument I just thought of and wanted to run it by you all. Tithing was going on by those who believed in God far before the Levitical law (cf. Abraham in Gn. 14:20; Jacob in 28:22), therefore it is possible that tithing, as a general number of 10% of everything being given to God, supercedes the Law and in fact is not a "law" at all. It is a principle that was established long before the Law, and therefore cannot be summarily dismissed after the Law became outdated. It is like faith that was around before the Law and should be around after the Law, because it has nothing to do with the Law as a principle.

This was explained on page two and I will repost it. This was to Joman but should answer your questions Bluefalcon.

Posted by Joman: Gen.14:19-20 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Joman, Abram had just returned from battle. He tithed to Melchizedek from the spoils of the battle. He did not tithe of his own money or goods. In fact Abram gave the rest to the king of Sodom and kept nothing for himself. There is no record that Abraham ever tithed again.

Also if you look at the old testament doctrine of tithing it is very different to how it is being taught in churches today. Tithing was usually done with food and livestock, not money.

Tithing was for the temple to support the priests. It was never transferred to the church.

Jesus set up giving in the New Testament. Churches that teach tithing in this dispensation are doing so outside the will of God. The bible never gave any man the right to take 10% of a mans wages.

They will tell you you are robbing God if you don't tithe, twisting the scriptures out of context.

Malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

He was speaking to the Levitical priests of the temple. NOT the Church.

Pastors will tell you to tithe no matter what your financial situation is. Trust God to bless. This statement has no basis in scripture and was invented by the church to get you to tithe.

Tithing as taught today never was a biblical concept or principle and definately not new testament.

 

[Bluefalcon]

First, the record of Abraham's tithe (Gen. 14:20) does not say he tithed to Melchizedek a tenth of the spoils only, but that he gave a tithe "of all". And this is consistent not only with Heb. 7:2, where it says Abraham gave a tenth part of all without refering to certain spoil, but it is also consistent with Jacob's tithing in Gen. 28:22, where it says he will tithe "of all" that the Lord gives him. This is specific: not just clothing and animals, but money and anything else that falls under the category of "all" here. And in fact it implies a continual giving of the tenth of everything the Lord gives him, not just a one-time tithe. The OT record is quite selective, and that other recordings of tithing before the OT Law was introduced is not surprising. After all, both occurrances are in Genesis, the only book for such a record before the Law comes down in Exodus. Any arguments against tithing as a pre-Law principle by faith's Fathers themselves (Abraham & Jacob) seem to fall hopelessly to the ground.

Cheers, Bluefalcon

 

[Bluefalcon]

Originally posted by Soulman:

Tithing as taught today never was a biblical concept or principle and definately not new testament.

This is about as false a statement as one can make.

Yours, Bluefalcon

 

[Bluefalcon]

Okay, Abraham's tithe is clearly from the spoil, but not so with Jacob's, and Jacob's oath seems to include a promise of continual tithing. Both are pre-Law and as such cannot be summarily dismissed by saying that tithing is only some obsolete law. Tithing is a valid biblical principle. And I have to question throwing out basically 4/5 of the Bible just because most of it was under THE LAW. What kind of exegesis is this? The earliest church's main guide for faith and practice was the OT. It is clear that giving a tithe of all one's increase pleases God. Withholding of tithes & offerings was counted as robbing God, just as in Mal 3:9 it says that even the whole nation had robbed God, not just the Levites, presumably by not giving their tithes and offerings (Mal 3:8). And I surmise that one reason Paul didn't command tithing is because none of his churches had any problem with giving, and in fact if early Church believers began only giving a tithe there wouldn't have been enough for the ministry! It's clear that the early Church gave much more than just a measly tithe. We should do likewise, but certainly not anything less than a tithe as the basic starting point.

Yours, Bluefalcon

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Hey Blue...just for the record I disagree with YOUR "exegesis" on this and side with Soulman.....but one things for sure...you probably just became a HERO with 95% of the baptist preachers in this country.As far as what Paul would have taught regarding tithing,I feel safe in saying he would have preached the "whole counsel" of God even regarding this subject IF it had been in effect for the church.Remember...he was a scrupulous Law Keeping Jew before the Lord got hold of him and he knew full well ALL the laws concerning tithing.Seems kinda odd that he NEVER...not ONCE,at least not in the recorded record of the Scriptures commanded or exhorted ANYONE under GRACE to "tithe".Hummmmmmmmmmmm!?!Bless you brother!

Greg Sr.

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by Bluefalcon:
It's clear that the early Church gave much more than just a measly tithe. We should do likewise, but certainly not anything less than a tithe as the basic starting point.

This "tithe as a starting point" is unbiblical nonsense. If it's not, where is the 'ending point?' Everything,, I'm sure. Then why do you extol the principles found of Abaraham, Jacob, then Malachi? Why not go by the principles of Barnabas and the others who sold everything and laid the money at the apostles' feet? Do you do that, or do you defy that as not a requirement?

You can place validity on what Abraham and Jacob did, or 'vowed' to do. But as for the Malachi passage, which guarantees blessings from tithes and offerings, that can be logically put to a test.. as God Himself said to test Him in this. I have. I went over records running over 3 years of which sometimes I did give at least a tithe, sometimes I did not. There was no correlation between tithing and 'financial blessings', and quite the contrary-- the more I give, the less I have. The statistical test of hypothesis failed. So there is one of 2 reasons... (1)the scripture is untrue here, or (2)this passage is not applicable to a NT Christian and his church, as it was given to a nation and complex system of temple sacrifices, priests, and workers.

So, as I said, base your reasoning that tithing is a minimal requirement for NT Christians based on anything, biblical or nonbiblical, but if you try to make the claim that I have encountered about tithing resulting in financial blessings, I have a ready answer that disproves it.

 

[Alcott]

 

[Soulman]

People that are for tithing seem to have all the canned answers such as " Peoplw are against tithing because they don't want to tithe". Or some other rude unsubstantiated comments.

This is not the case at all. I am all for giving. Give as the Lord leads. N.T. giving simply puts the blessing on the giver rather than the receiver. With tithing people are shamed into giving a certain amount wether they have it or not. People give out of constraint. By demanding your congregation to tithe, sign up for faith promise for missions and make offerings, it puts strain on people that are barely making it as it is. There is very little blessing for the believer.

When a person puts what he can into the plate, be it large or small he can be blessed because he did it cheerfully. Does this mean we should put a dollar into the plate instead of more? I am not saying that. But the Lord WAS pleased with the widows mites. We should give sacrificially as the Lord leads.

Those that say it is an excuse not to give, take it up with the Lord. This is how He set up N.T. giving.

 

[Bluefalcon]

Originally posted by Alcott:
This "tithe as a starting point" is unbiblical nonsense. If it's not, where is the 'ending point?' Everything,, I'm sure. Then why do you extol the principles found of Abaraham, Jacob, then Malachi? Why not go by the principles of Barnabas and the others who sold everything and laid the money at the apostles' feet? Do you do that, or do you defy that as not a requirement?

The biblical pattern of giving to God is unmistakable, as we all agree. As for how much, for some reason God chose for a tenth of everything off the top to be surrendered to him without question, the "firstfruits" so to speak. In fact there are several tithes spoken of in the OT. It is expected that before one uses anything that has come to him, he has already given a portion off the top to God. How much traditionally, ever since God himself told us, has been a tithe. This is a traditional and important act of worship. Giving to God something left over from what has come to him goes against the biblical pattern. God doesn't care about "left-over-fruits" because he wants our "firstfruits". Yes, I agree, the NT pattern is to give far more than a mere tithe, just as Barnabas and others seem to have done, and giving with alterior motives or personal gain can be deadly (cf. Acts 5). The widow's two mites seems to have been "all" she had, 100 percent. Yet statistics show that more members of todays churches give nothing than give anything at all.

Originally posted by Alcott:
but if you try to make the claim that I have encountered about tithing resulting in financial blessings, I have a ready answer that disproves it.

I've never claimed that tithing results in financial blessings. But Jesus seems to have summarized Mal. 3:10 where he says, "Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again" (Lk. 6:38).

And Lk. 11:42: "But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

And that is NT.

Cheers, Bluefalcon

 

[Bluefalcon]

I just found a Barna Research Group statistic:

"In mid-May, the Barna Research Group reported the results of a survey of 1,010 adults last January and February. It showed that the proportion of households tithing – giving 10 percent of income – to churches dropped from 8 percent in 2001 to just 3 percent in 2002."

[Source is: http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/1256.article]

Now only 3 percent of churchgoing housholds give 10 percent or more.

In my opinion this is not a good trend.

Yours, Bluefalcon

 

[Alcott]

Yes, I agree, the NT pattern is to give far more than a mere tithe, just as Barnabas and others seem to have done

Then do you do this same thing and give everything you have, or do you not do so?

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Hey, I've got a question . . .
When Jacob vowed to God after the vision of the ladder, and mentioned he would tithe a tenth of all that God blessed him with . . .

Who did Jacob pay his tithes to? What priest, rabbi or church? What was the manner of that religous observance?

 

[Soulman]

Posted by Bluefalcon: And Lk. 11:42: "But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."And that is NT.

True. It is N.T. Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees
for their legalisim. However as far as the tithe being mentioned in the N.T. While Jesus walked the earth the O.T. law was still in force. On the cross He fulfilled the law.

 

[Bluefalcon]

Originally posted by Alcott:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yes, I agree, the NT pattern is to give far more than a mere tithe, just as Barnabas and others seem to have done

Then do you do this same thing and give everything you have, or do you not do so? </font>[/QUOTE]I've never said we're supposed to give everything we have monetarily to the Church. You've said that. I don't see that as a pattern at all in the Bible. Do you have Scripture to back up this claim? Barnabas had land and sold it. I doubt that was "all" he had. The only one I can think of who gave everything was a widow, and that wasn't even to the Church. However, I don't see any indication that anyone gave less than a tithe in the NT. Do you? All that is talked about is sacrificial giving. And in part because I am a gentleman I will not ask if you are obeying the biblical pattern.

Cheers, Bluefalcon

 

[Bluefalcon]

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
Hey, I've got a question . . .
When Jacob vowed to God after the vision of the ladder, and mentioned he would tithe a tenth of all that God blessed him with . . .

Who did Jacob pay his tithes to? What priest, rabbi or church? What was the manner of that religous observance?

Good question, and the Bible doesn't say. I suppose he could have given it to Melchizedek as it is recorded his grandfather did. Or maybe he offered his tithe in the form of sacrifices on altars (cf. Gen. 31:54; 46:1). We just don't know for sure, just that from the biblical statement it is assumed that he did.

Cheers, Bluefalcon

 

[Alcott]

I've never said we're supposed to give everything we have monetarily to the Church.

I'll accept that as long as the one saying it does not make some claim "the more we give the more we have," as I have heard. Because if that were true, obviously every one of us should give everything we have or earn.

However, I don't see any indication that anyone gave less than a tithe in the NT.

Entirely biased and subjunctive. We are informed, of course, about those who sold their houses and land so that no one in the fellowship would be in need; so did those to whom the essentials were given give more than a tithe? If they 'gave back' a tithe of what they received, we are not told that. And there are many NT personalities for whom are told nothing about their giving (or 'tithing' or 'sacrificing'). And Paul did not use a word such as tithe, neither did he indicate any particular percentage or base value, when he told the Corinthians to give (for the saints in Israel who has suffered under the famine) "as he has prospered."

And in part because I am a gentleman I will not ask if you are obeying the biblical pattern.

Alright, I will also be a "gentleman" and not answer the question you state that you are not asking.

 

[IAD]

Taking a good look at our checkbook will tell us where our priorities are.

Absolutely. And any pastor who feels the need to threaten, strongarm or guilt-trip people about giving from the pulpit is leading a church that has not been taught proper biblical financial principles -- which is HIS fault!

If the issue is giving in general, then the matter is a simple one. We are to give because God is a giver. He owns the cattle on a thousand hills, and He owns the hills as well. John 3:16 states, "For God so loved the world that he GAVE..." The reason to give is not to overcome guilt for not giving, or to check off some line item on our spiritual checklist. It makes us more like our Father, like a kid who watches his dad shave and then mimics what he sees because he wants to be like Daddy. God is the Giver of all Good Things, and giving helps me conform to the Image in which I was created.

If it boils down to whether or not to give a literal tithe (tenth), well, there is Biblical precedent for that. We see the word in both the OT and the NT. What is more, the first recorded case of a tithe/tenth is in Genesis 14, where Abraham gives a tenth of his wealth to Melchizadek (sp?) after he bails Lot out of trouble. Melchizadek is typically held up as a type of Christ, so we see an OT picture of one way we should be worshipping the Lord. Giving IS worship.

Many inside and outside the church criticize tithes and offerings, because they feel like if God's so big then why does He need our money? As Bono said on U2's "Rattle And Hum" album, "And I can't tell the difference between ABC News, Hill Street Blues, and a man on the Old Time Gospel Hour taking money from the sick and the old. Well, the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister." Well of course He's not, Bono. But that's because He already owns it all anyway. There's nothing that we have that wasn't given to us by God. If He owns it and has just entrusted portions of His holdings to us to manage for Him, then who are we to argue when He tells us what to do with it?

 

[Bluefalcon]

Originally posted by Alcott:
And Paul did not use a word such as tithe, neither did he indicate any particular percentage or base value, when he told the Corinthians to give (for the saints in Israel who has suffered under the famine) "as he has prospered."

I was waiting for someone to bring this up

1 Cor. 16:2: "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

This is about as specific as it gets. (1) EVERYONE must give; (2) WEEKLY; (3) PROPORTIONATELY.

If one makes $1000 a week and tithes $100, he will be giving much more than one who makes $100 a week and tithes $10, but in God's eyes they are giving the same because he is for proportionate giving. Paul was a master of the OT and understood this well.

Cheers, Bluefalcon