Preterism and the Necessity of Honoring the Timing Statements of Christ’s Return

[thomas15]

Question for you, HankD:

Are the following verses from Isaiah meant to be taken literal? If so, when did it happen?

Isa 13:10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light.

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger.

I know this was directed to HankD but I will answer. The verses are to be taken literally. They are future events, will happen on the day of the Lord, that is why they are not recorded in history. Quite simple really.

 

[Greektim]

Isaiah 13 has yet to be fulfilled.

HankD

Seriously... do you even know the historical context of Isaiah???

I have a feeling the only reason you are saying that is b/c it obviously was not fulfilled literally. But the fall of Babylon was an earthshaking moment in the history of the nations. So figurative (apocalyptic) language was used for a normal even in history... imagine that.

 

[thomas15]

I really don't have a lot of time to play in the sandbox today but a few comments...

Everyone agrees when Jesus said not one stone left upon another that was fulfilled by the temple’s destruction in 70 AD.

From a normal reading of the Gospel accounts one could infer that the destruction of the temple and the second coming of Christ are not same thing. There is about 2000 years of Christian belief on that that would agree with me on this.

Some more literal translations do say fight with the beast not against him. I don’t think you would argue that God didn’t fight with heathen armies to sack Jerusalem and bring judgment on other nations as well so why wouldn’t the same line of thought and interpretation be valid in the New Testament?

The New testament clearly states that when Jesus returns he will lead the army made up of his holy ones. I don't understand why you would try to argue against this, it is that plainly taught in the Holy Bible.

Yes the heathen Roman army was the Lord’s instrument and he did fight with them to bring judgment on Jerusalem as described in Revelation. You can deny it, but of course it won’t change the fact.

Again, it is true that God did in the past use heathen armies but the Bible clearly states that when Jesus returns in judgement that that army will be from heaven.

Just as your denying the time statements of the bible don’t change the fact that if the context of a soon, first century, coming of the Lord isn’t honored then we have by definition rendered the bible not as inerrant and then all its claims are called into question which leaves us with a Christian doctrine riddled with holes and nothing solid to place our faith in.

The reason I disagree with your take on the time statements is because I hold a high view of the Scriptures. There are a lot of details regarding the second coming that didn't happen in AD 70 so that tells me that the second coming didn't happen in AD 70.

 

[Greektim]

I know this was directed to HankD but I will answer. The verses are to be taken literally. They are future events, will happen on the day of the Lord, that is why they are not recorded in history. Quite simple really.

That seems very unlikely in light of v. 13

"Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold."

I'm sure you know, the Medes & Persians ended the Babylonian empire. This was a prophecy of things soon to come.

 

[HankD]

That seems very unlikely in light of v. 13

"Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold."

I'm sure you know, the Medes & Persians ended the Babylonian empire. This was a prophecy of things soon to come.

Yes it did have an immediate fulfilment but as many of us believe there are often both an immediate and far reaching fulfilment of prophecy.
e.g. I called my Son out of Egypt.

The Medes (Heb - Madai) were descendants of Japhet.
A culture and people can continue on after their nation and/or empire is defeated. e.g. the Romans became the Italians.

Today we would call the Medes Iranians.

Babylon of Isaiah 13 would be identified with Mystery Babylon of the Revelation.


HankD

 

[Greektim]

Yes it did have an immediate fulfilment but as many of us believe there are often both an immediate and far reaching fulfilment of prophecy.
e.g. I called my Son out of Egypt.

The Medes (Heb - Madai) were descendants of Japhet.
A culture and people can continue on after their nation and/or empire is defeated. e.g. the Romans became the Italians.

Today we would call the Medes Iranians.

Babylon of Isaiah 13 would be identified with Mystery Babylon of the Revelation.


HankD

Or John is playing off of the concept of Babylon since the empire had long been defeated. I can't believe I used to believe this stuff.

But the one that gets me most is the inconsistencies of verses having dual fulfillments when dispo's in the same breath talk about single meaning and stable meaning.

Isa. 13 very clearly pictures the fall of the Babylonian empire by the Medes. Figural, apocalyptic language was used to describe said fall. And that is a plain reading of the text.

 

[Iconoclast]

Isaiah 13 has yet to be fulfilled.

HankD

ISA 13 was already fulfilled

 

[DHK]

ISA 13 was already fulfilled

Please document and give historical evidence of this:

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (Isaiah 13:10)

Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isaiah 13:13)

When and where did this happen. Documentation is required, not just people's fantasies.

 

[convicted1]

I'm just a simple country boy without a seminary education but I sure don't see things the way most of you do. This whole thread is concerned with when Christ makes his second appearance and when prophesy is fulfilled. Ok so here goes:

As for the temple being destroyed and rebuilt scripture is plain, it is Christ crucifixion and resurrection:

(Joh 2:19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

(Joh 2:20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

(Joh 2:21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

Now for his appearance:

He came to me the first time and brought condemnation:

(Rom 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

And his second appearance when he brought me salvation

(Heb 9:28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Doesn't anyone want to discuss this wonderful post written by Bro. Jeff???

Very good job!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

Please document and give historical evidence of this:

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (Isaiah 13:10)

Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isaiah 13:13)

When and where did this happen. Documentation is required, not just people's fantasies.

UHHHH, how 'bout while Jesus was dying on the cross??

 

[HankD]

Look everyone, we each have a methodology to interpret prophecy.

From Isaiah 13 I fully expect that Iran will attack Israel at the foreordained time.

I became weary of the verbal dunnybrook the last time we did this.

Scan the BB if you wish to see all of my answers to preterists. I sense that this is going down a path I don't want to go over again.

HankD

 

[DHK]

UHHHH, how 'bout while Jesus was dying on the cross??

You might stretch verse 10 to coincide with the death of Christ; a partial fulfillment.
But verse 13?

Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isaiah 13:13)

Were the heaven shaken? Was the earth removed out of her place? I don't think so.

 

[Logos1]

The NT clearly tells us no one has ever seen God

Hi logos1,

I have thought about it and obviously there won't be a meeting of the minds except to say that discernment is necessary when interpreting scripture.

I have no problem with the theophanies of God or God appearing to man in a recognizable form and/or God doing some very "material" things.

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.​

"presence" in this passage is the Hebrew word for "face".
He walked, they heard His voice and hid themselves from His face.​

Exodus 24
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.​

God appeared to Abraham as three men and ate a meal with Him:​

Genesis 18
1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.​

God has chariots and horses in heaven:
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.​

As to God riding a cloud:​

Acts 1
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

"this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven"​

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.​

As I said there will not be a meeting of the minds therefore I respond for the benefit of others to know and discern the traditional point of view.​

This is the essential difference between preterism and futurism:

The visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth as was promised in Acts 1:11 of which we are told in Zechariah 14 that He will fulfill this promise and return to to earth to the Mount of Olives (from whence He was taken up in a cloud) to save the remnant of Israel.​

In Zechariah 14 though the Lord gathers the nations against Israel, the Lord saves Israel, He does not allow the gentile nations to destroy her.​

Let the readers discern for themselves.​

Logos1 you speak of plain language:​

2 Peter 3
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.​

Here Peter appeals to a literal happening- the perishing of the earth by the flood and then speaks of the next cataclysm of both the heaven and earth by fire with an explanation of a very material like katharsis.​

And on and on and on... every passage indicating the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ and/or the day of the Lord both in the Old and New Testament must be spiritualized.​

OK if you wish to call my literalness of the several passages discussed "desparation", so be it.​

BTW, If Christ is ruling and reigning why are there still cemetaries being filled? Why the violence in the world escalating in a geometric progression?​

Also, if all has been fulfilled, you must of necessity believe the resurrection has already occured in spite of the plain language of​

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

If the message of full preterism (discovered after almost 2000 years) is so plain and simple how is that these passages (among a multitude of others) need pages of explanation as to the supposed fact that they do not say what they appear to say in plain and simple language?

Again, let the reader discern.​

HankD​

Hi Hank,

OK I admit I’m a little surprised that you would try to literalize any of these OT verses as a physical appearing of God when one verse, and there are at least two in the N. T, which. blows them all away. I think we can agree that the N.T. should be used to interpret the OT.

You could say these OT verses tell of a spiritual presence, or angel, or use whatever means necessary to rationalize them, but clearly they can’t be used to claim a physical appearing of God where people actually see God in view of the NT writings.

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

So therefore it would have to follow if God has not come to earth in physical form and the father is like the son as John 5:19 tells Then when Jesus comes it won’t be in physical form either.

I think it would be tough to create a bible based case that Christ would return to the earth in a literal, physical form.

You can reference Acts and Rev 1:7, but if those are the best verses to make a case for a physical return I think as many times as it has been shown the correct interpretation of those verses that anyone not enamored by their preconceived notions would quickly dismiss those verses also.

Logos1

 

[DHK]

OK I admit I’m a little surprised that you would try to literalize any of these OT verses as a physical appearing of God when one verse, and there are at least two in the N. T, which. blows them all away. I think we can agree that the N.T. should be used to interpret the OT.

You could say these OT verses tell of a spiritual presence, or angel, or use whatever means necessary to rationalize them, but clearly they can’t be used to claim a physical appearing of God where people actually see God in view of the NT writings.

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

You can reference Acts and Rev 1:7, but if those are the best verses to make a case for a physical return I think as many times as it has been shown the correct interpretation of those verses that anyone not enamored by their preconceived notions would quickly dismiss those verses also.

Logos1

With John 1:18 you neglected John 1:14:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
According to John 1:1 the Word is God. I am not sure I am following you. We don't have to prove the deity of Christ, and that he walked and talked on the earth 2,000 years ago, do we? I assume you believe that--an historical Christ who was deity?

As John says he saw God (full of grace and truth), so did the disciples see him ascend into heaven, and so will every eye see him when he comes again. Also we will see him when he comes for us, for we shall see him, and we shall be like him.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

 

[Greektim]

Please document and give historical evidence of this:

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (Isaiah 13:10)

Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isaiah 13:13)

When and where did this happen. Documentation is required, not just people's fantasies.

Documentation??? How about when Babylon was defeated by the Medes (cf. 13:17)? The figural language was used because when Babylon fell it was an earth shattering event. You have to be able to allow apocalyptic language to include real world historical events such as clearly referred to in Isa. 13.

 

[DHK]

Documentation??? How about when Babylon was defeated by the Medes (cf. 13:17)? The figural language was used because when Babylon fell it was an earth shattering event. You have to be able to allow apocalyptic language to include real world historical events such as clearly referred to in Isa. 13.

If the passage was confined from verses 1 to 5 then you might have a case. But we are not dealing with first five verses which are directed at Babylon.
This paragraph starts at verse 6:

Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. (Isaiah 13:6)
--This is no description of Babylon. It is a description of "The Day of the Lord," which all Jews knew to be well into the future, a day when the judgement of God would come, and then Messiah would come at that time as well. Both events were connected in the Jewish mind. And both events are still connected. Nothing has changed.
The Messiah is still to come.
Judgment is still to come.
That description is still future.
It does not deal with Babylon.

 

[Logos1]

With John 1:18 you neglected John 1:14:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
According to John 1:1 the Word is God. I am not sure I am following you. We don't have to prove the deity of Christ, and that he walked and talked on the earth 2,000 years ago, do we? I assume you believe that--an historical Christ who was deity?

As John says he saw God (full of grace and truth), so did the disciples see him ascend into heaven, and so will every eye see him when he comes again. Also we will see him when he comes for us, for we shall see him, and we shall be like him.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

Your confusing the Father with the Son.

Seeing a physical Jesus has nothing to do with not seeing God in the OT.

But remember when Jesus was here it was HE who said he would come back Like the Father which clearly established his coming back as not being literal.

 

[DHK]

Your confusing the Father with the Son.

Seeing a physical Jesus has nothing to do with not seeing God in the OT.

But remember when Jesus was here it was HE who said he would come back Like the Father which clearly established his coming back as not being literal.

One cannot so handily dismiss the triune Godhead.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14:8-11)

When they saw Christ they saw the Father.
Christ revealed the Father.
The Father was revealed through Christ.
God was manifest in the flesh through Christ.

 

[Logos1]

One cannot so handily dismiss the triune Godhead.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14:8-11)

When they saw Christ they saw the Father.
Christ revealed the Father.
The Father was revealed through Christ.
God was manifest in the flesh through Christ.

This would be double speak. It really has nothing to do with my post.

There has still been no real attempt to rebut the imperative nature of the time statements as outlined earlier. If the first generation context of the various time statements aren’t honored then there is no basis for honoring any other aspect of Christian tenants either and we are left with nothing.

All the various time statements of the coming of Christ can only point to one conclusion—the bible (inspired words of the Holy Spirit) are telling us HE shall return in the time frame of the first generation of believers.

If you knew nothing of eschatology and just read the bible for the first time that would be your only possible conclusion of Christ's return.

Only preconceived notions blur the obvious truth of the matter.

 

[Iconoclast]

Please document and give historical evidence of this:

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (Isaiah 13:10)

Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isaiah 13:13)

When and where did this happen. Documentation is required, not just people's fantasies.

DHK,
Because you have not learned how to deal with the language God uses here to describe the fall of Babylon.....does not mean others do not see it....greektim,and Logos have answered this correctly...it also explains the languge of Mt 24...which you also mangle.

To see it clearly look at how God uses the same or similar language elsewhere.....

8And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

9And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.