Yes it was.
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Preterism Proof
- Thread starter robycop3
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it's VERY possible God could use the approach of another planet toward earth to bring on the plagues. Many of them could be caused by its gravity, & all the planets have rocks orbiting them that could become meteors.
This could give unbelievers a ready-made excuse, blaming the plagues on "bad luck", etc. insteada attributing them to God. (Remember, He's gonna send strong delusion upon all who take the marka the beast, so they will be condemned.)
'Twas NOT, & you can't prove otherwise.
Then you must have it.
"VERY possible," Could, could, could and a few more "coulds" Very good theology, I must say.
And Pre Mil
How so, as he was a pre mil?
Saint of Circumstance
Member
Again, you have failed to address even ONE of my answers to your myriad of challenges head on... instead you retreat into the age old "Preterism is false neener neener neener" rant with zero substance, and refuse to address even ONE scripture we Preterists provide.
Since you, time and again, REFUSE to support your view to the same Standard you DEMAND preterists support their view, your demands remain baseless and without warrant.
Until such time as you can concretely demonstrate that your view meets the threshold you require my view to meet, I will continue to relegate your objections to the unfounded pile. I am confident our readers will as well.
But, since I'm a fair and decent guy, I'll continue to give you the opportunity to use your threshold of demands you have requird I provide for MY view, and show us how you consistently apply them to YOUR view:
Tells us, WHEN and HOW was Matthew 21:33-45 Fulfilled, if ever?
Show us your PROOF that God was SEEN riding a Cloud and shooting Arrows at Saul and His armies, kindling coals with His brigtness and shaking the entire heavens and earth at that time. (2 Samuel 22:8-16)
Show us your PROOF that God's Physical Arm was SEEN by the eyes of All nations (Isaiah 52:10)
Show us your PROOF that God Destroyed the universe when He Judged Israel through Babylon (Jeremiah 4:22-30)
Show us your PROOF that ALL FLESH SAW God kindle an unqueched fire that devoured EVERY GREEN TREE and that ALL FLESH SAW God draw His sword out of it's sheath at the time of the Babyonian Exile..(Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)
Show us your PROOF that God Came down from heaven and trod upon and Melted mountains at the time Assyria Conqured Samaria & Jerusalem in 721BCE (Micah 1)
Show us your PROOF that God filled rivers with Pharoah's Blood, Covered mountains with his flesh and Caused the Sun, moon and Stars to go Dark when Babylon conqured Egypt (Ezekiel 32:1-12 )
Show us your PROOF Roby, that all these things that you believe have ALREADY HAPPENED, Happened in the way the prophets describe in this clear, visual, literal language.
Remember, since you do not accept "artistic licence" as a valid response for our view, it will likewise not be accepted as proof of your view.
You don't get to claim it's all "spiritualized artistic metaphor" if we don't.
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ROFGuffawing! Spot on!
Tommy = Thomas Ice
From an article by Gary Demar
The problem is, dispensationalists don’t follow the above principles consistently. For example, consider this comment from Tommy:
It appears that DeMar has an image of himself as a literal interpreter because he believes that his interpretation of “this generation” in Matthew 24:34 is “more literal” than other literal interpretations. Since this is the focal point of his entire eschatology, DeMar thinks he is a more literal interpreter than others even though I believe he does not follow a literal interpretation at many points.
It’s interesting that Tommy doesn’t explain my interpretation of “this generation” or his own and why I believe the phrase can only mean the generation to whom Jesus was speaking. I interpret the verse according to “the original sense of the Bible according to the normal and customary usages of its language.”
Each time Jesus uses the phrase “this generation,” it always refers to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking. In fact, in a radio debate that Tommy and I had some years ago, he admitted that every use of “this generation” in the gospels refers to the generation of Jesus’ day except in Matthew 24:34. This is contrary to what Tommy claims for himself: “Literal interpretation looks to the text, the actual words and phrases of a passage.”
Every time “this generation” (he genea haute) is used in the gospels, it refers to the generation of Jesus’ day: Matthew 11:16; 12:41, 45; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12 (twice), 38; 13:30; Luke 7:31; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51, 17:25; 21:32.
The use of the near demonstrative “this” forces the interpreter to understand Jesus to mean the generation to whom He was speaking. If Jesus had a future generation in view, He could have easily alleviated any confusion by using the far demonstrative “that” to distinguish His use of “this generation” in Matthew 24 (and Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32) from every other time He used “this generation.”
Let me call in some experts on the subject to show that Tommy is far off base when it comes to his non-literal interpretation of “this generation” in the Olivet Discourse.
● Robert G. Bratcher and Eugene A. Nida: “[T]he obvious meaning of the words ‘this generation’ is the people contemporary with Jesus. Nothing can be gained by trying to take the word in any sense other than its normal one: in Mark (elsewhere in 8:12, 9:19) the word always has this meaning.”5
● D. A. Carson: “[This generation] can only with the greatest difficulty be made to mean anything other than the generation living when Jesus spoke.”6
● John Nolland: “Matthew uses genea here for the tenth time. ‘This generation’ is the generation of Jesus’ contemporaries.”7
● William Sanford LaSor: “If ‘this generation’ is taken literally, all of the predictions were to take place within the life-span of those living at that time.”8
● Jack P. Lewis: “Others have argued that genea means the final generation; that is, once the signs have started, all these happenings would transpire in one generation (cf. 23:36). But elsewhere in Matthew genea means the people alive at one time and usually at the time of Jesus (1:17; 11:16; 12:39,41,45; 23:36; Mark 8:38; Luke 11:50f.; 17:25), and it doubtlessly means the same here.”9
Tommy wrote that an “allegorical or non-literal interpretation imports an idea not found specifically in the text of a passage.” So how does Tommy change “this generation” into a future generation? He adds words to the text. In their book Charting the End Times,Tommy and co-author Tim LaHaye argue that Matthew 24:34 should read, “The generation that ‘sees’ these things will not pass till all is fulfilled.”10 In order to get this meaning, “this” has to be replaced with “the” and four words have to be added to the verse: “The generation that sees these signs will not pass away. . . .” This is not the way to interpret the Bible. In addition, we are told in Matthew 24:33 who will see the signs: “even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.” The “you” is them not us.
So who’s the more consistently literal interpreter of Matthew 24:34? It’s certainly not Tommy Ice and his fellow dispensationalists.
- The American Vision
Preterism is about the ESCHATOLOGICAL events, that is, those events that will occur at the end of this present age of the New Covenant.
Matt. 21:33-45 is a parable, and the Gospel, which was first given to the Jews, was given to the gentiles, beginning with several whom jesus dealt with directly, such as the Roman centurion. Likewise, the apostles went to non-Jewish nations after Jesus was gone.
2 Samuel 22 is a PSALM, in which David used "artist's license", same as he did in other Psalms he wrote, same as songwriters do today.
Isaiah 52 has been fulfilled in part, especially about the sufferings of Jesus. And we don't know what GOD'S arm looks like. But He has only partially restored Israel, in the persons of the Jews.
Now, let's get back to what preterism is about - ESCHATOLOGY.
Jesus was NOT composing a song nor making poetry when He answered His disciples' questions in the Olivet Discourse. He was answering them in their everyday language. His answers blend perfectly with previous prophecies about "the end" and with the Revelation, in which He appears several times.
As for Ezekiel 20, God did NOT say people would SEE His drawn sword, etc. And He has NOT yet brought back all Israel to His land.
As for Jeremiah 4, the land now occupied by israel was once far-more-fertile than it now is. Lions, leopards, & bears once lined in it. But God is now restoring it.
As for Micah, the people did indeed go into exile.
Now, wnough of this nonsense. Jesus made SPECIFIC PROPHECIES, with no poetry, songwriting, or metaphors included, concerning His departure and return. In His parables, He was the nobleman who went on a long journey TO RECEIVE HIS KINGDOM, & return as King. He was the son of the owner of the vineyard tended by unfaithful stewards, who murdered Him. It was Jesus who was murdered & sacrificed in the manner of a lamb, but who will come back as a Lion to rule the world.
We have the LITERAL fulfillment of the prophecies of Jesus' first coming, including those of His murder & sacrifice, and the LITERAL fulfillment of those parts of His olivet Discourse that have been fulfilled so far. We see He is beginning to restore Judah, and the rest of israel will follow. We see the world conditions He prophesied coming to pass, with the "great falling away" with false worship, cults & apostate sects rampant, & the prevalence of evil everywhere, with most nations accepting homosexuality, fornication, and most other sexual sins & perversions.
And Paul wann't writing poetry nor songs, either, when he prophesied the coming of the "man of sin" in 2 Thess. 2. had he already come, you should've been able to have told us his name.
if one can make the Bible fit any & all man-made doctrines of religion, then it's not God's book of absolutes. But I believe it LITERALLY AS POSSIBLE.
So, let's skip your red herrings & bunny trails & let's see some PROOF that the eschatological events have already occurred, or an admission you were deceived by the preterism doctrine.
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How is that possible? He is the author of salvation and he Himself made it our priority.
Hebrews 5
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
HankD
Never Hank. The priority is Love God and Love neighbor.
Matthew 16
24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26“For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
Jesus Christ for example did not need to die for anyone if his own life is the priority, he could have floated right up to heaven anytime. Instead Jesus Christ says my life for theirs.
John 10
14“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
1 John 3
16We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Jesus Christ is our example. I don't remember seeing him groveling to other men to get salvation.
Well he actually has had many conversations with Thomas Ice, so I doubt seriously if calling him Tommy was meant to demean. Unless of course you can judge his heart. If not, perhaps "carnal" fits someone else.
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No you don't.
A literal understanding would be that the events before the word, 'this generation' were fulfilled and the the word 'But' begins the answers to the second questions about when the Lord will come.
Was Jerusalem destroyed? yes
Was the temple destroyed? Yes.
Did the Christians flee Jerusalem, according the command of the Lord, when they saw the Roman Armies surround Jerusalem? Yes
Such a demeaning use of a nick name is grounds for banning on the BB.
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