Preterists Cannot Prove Their Assertions !

[robycop3]

Let's see what parts of the Olivet Discourse have come to pass...
Matt. 24: 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
This came to pass literally in 70 AD. The Romans pulled the temple apart, believing there was gold concealed between its stones.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
This is still going on right now.

Matt. 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
There's been war/rumor of war since shortly after Jesus was here. While He was here, the Pax Romana was still ongoing. Now, the last hundred years has seen the two greatest wars ever, by far. And right at the end of WW1 was the greatest pandemic in history, that of the flu. While not as spectacular as that of the plague before it, it killed far more people. And among earthquakes, there was the huge explosion of Krakatoa in 1883, the Tokyo-Yokohama quake of 1923, the massive flood of China in 1931, to name a few.(Not to mention the various famines, many brought about because of war & natural disasters) Now, while these events seem far apart, they've actually occurred in a short span of time compared to the whole of the 2 millenia that've passed since Jesus was here.

Matt. 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
I don't know who the "they" are, but I'll say it's the non-Christian peoples & nations. We know this started even while Jesus was here, as the Jews had the Romans kill Him, and shortly afterwards, the apostles were persecuted & slain, as were many other Christians such as Stephen. And there have been false prophets from that time onward. The lawlessness Jesus mentioned, I believe is the disregarding of proper Christian behavior, such as the huge acceptance of LGBTQ, false mega-ministries, etc. with a large number of congregations merely going thru the motions of worship, with their "services" more of a party than anything else.

Matt. 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The Gospel has been preached to MOST, not yet ALL the world, but it soon will be. You've likely seen the story of the missionary who illegally went ashore on North Sentinel Island in the Bay of Bengal & was slain by its people. They have yet to hear the Gospel.
Matt.24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
Now, we must differentiate this event from the destruction of Jerusalem already mentioned, and covered in Luke 21. First, here's what the AOD will be. gabriel told daniel it'll be when the evil ruler enters the temple, sets up his statue in it, & proclaims himself to be the only god there is. (At that time, his sidekick the false prophet, will institute the "mark of the beast" as he supernaturally makes his boss' statue speak.) Very shortly afterwards, the great trib will begin. OBVIOUSLY, THIS HAS NOT YET OCCURRED!
Remember, Jesus said in Luke 21 that when Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies, its destruction was at hand. Vespasian brought an army, which joined with another nearby army, to cause "armies" to surround J, but political chaos in Rome caused V to leave with the armies, with V named as Caesar shortly after. His son Titus returned to J with an army 8 months later, so those in jerusalem who chose to flee had 8 months between the sieges to do so; thus it's obvious that was NOT the hasty flight Jesus spoke of.

Please read Luke 21 CLOSELY.You'll see that ALL JUDEA was warned of coming devastation, which DID occur in 70-71 AD. Now, this was NOT the "great trib"! It was the "days of vengeance", proclaimed by Jesus against that generation of Jews, whom He charged with all the murders of the righteous from Abel to that time. A much-greater punishment on the Jews for murdering Jesus began a coupla generations later when Hadrian expelled the Jews from their land, with the Jews being hated & persecuted wherever they went for over 1800 years, culmination in the nazi holocaust.

If the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple in 70 AD was the great trib, then Jesus missed the bus, His words were incorrect, or both, for He said, in Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We plainly see that the Olivet Discourse prophecies that HAVE come to pass have done so LITERALLY; thus, there's no valid reason to believe the others won't come to pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY! Reducing them to "symbolic/apocalyptic language" status is just plain silly!

The SIMPLE TRUTH is those events have NOT YET OCCURRED! Thus, preterism remains phony as a Ford Corvette!

 

[robycop3]

Can someone please explain to me how a preterist can hold on to preterism's assertions when he/she cannot show one bit of proof that those prophesied events have already occurred? They remind me of a "flat-earther" I met in the Navy. Watching ships sail over the horizon while others appeared on the horizon, he said it was all a mirage or optical illusion. Preterists' excuses are on that same par.

 

[Lodic]

Hi @robycop3 . I've just discovered this post, otherwise I would have replied earlier. It's always an interesting topic. I suspect you are as passionate about Preterism as I am, and maybe even more so. A new understanding of the Olivet Discourse is largely why I changed to the Partial Preterist view. In Matthew 24:34, Jesus said "this generation will not pass until ALL these things come to pass". Couple of points - He said "this generation", not "that generation" or "the generation alive when these things start happening". The generation that saw the destruction of Jerusalem saw ALL of what He had described in the preceding 33 verses.

We certainly agree that the prophecy in Matt. 24:2 literally came to pass. In the next verse, the disciples asked Jesus "When will these things happen? What will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the Age?" Note that "end of the Age" is the proper translation instead of the old "end of the world" we see in the KJV. The end of what age? He is talking about the end of the Old Covenant age. I know, you will object that Jesus instituted the New Covenant at the Last Supper. However, the Old Covenant didn't go away until the destruction of the Temple in AD 70.

Regarding Matt. 24:6-7, you mentioned that we've had wars since the time He spoke these words. True enough. In order for this to be a "sign", there had to be something significant going on. I suggest Jesus was referring to the "War of Four Emperors" (AD 66-70), which was (ironically) during the Pax Romana. This would be more of a sign since it happened during a time of "peace".

Verses 9-13 could easily describe the persecution during the Jewish Wars. Those who endured to the end were saved because Jesus warns them to flee Jerusalem in v. 16. As you know, the Christians fled to Pella to escape the persecution. On that note, it would not be possible to escape a worldwide tribulation in the way Jesus tells His followers. Also, in v. 20, Jesus is making a reference to the Sabbath Laws of His day. This would make no difference to modern Christians.

Has the Gospel been preached to all the world, as Jesus said in v. 14? While I am certainly no Greek scholar, I do know that the word for "world" used in this verse is "oikumene", meaning the known world, or the political realm. In this context, it points to the Roman Empire. The same word is used in Luke 2:1, where Augustus called for a census of the "oikumene". The following passages support the view that the Gospel was, in fact, preached in the whole "oikumene": Romans 1:8 (faith proclaimed throughout the whole world); Romans 16:26 (Gospel has been made known to all the nations); Colossians 1:3-6 (Gospel has come in all the world); Colossians 1:21-23 (proclaimed in all Creation); and 1 Timothy 3:16 (proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world).

In vs. 15-22, Jesus refers to the Abomination of Desolation from Daniel 9:26-27. I believe the sanctuary whose end will come with a flood refers to the temple which would be rebuilt by the returning exiles (Ezra 6:13-15). The AofD is also in Daniel 11:3. This may refer to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who sacrificed a pig on the altar. You stated that this is where the evil ruler enters the temple and proclaims himself to be the only god. I don't see that in Daniel 11. The king in vs. 36-45 could be Herod the Great.

Luke 21:20 gives a specific sign that Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies, and we agree this refers to the siege of AD 66-70. The Christians had to flee while they could. You mentioned that this wasn't a "hasty" flight from Jerusalem. Did Jesus say it would be a "hasty" flight? He told them to flee - to get out while they can.

After reading Luke 21 very closely (per your request), I am more convinced than ever that this was the "great tribulation" (aka "days of vengeance") that Jesus warned them about. The "cosmic destruction" language Jesus used was a common type of hyperbole. In Matthew 24:30, He quotes Daniel 7:13. Note that in Daniel, the Son of Man is going UP to the Ancient of Days - not DOWN to set up His kingdom. We see this "cloud language" used in Acts 2:17-21, which quotes Joel 2. The sun didn't literally turn dark, and the moon didn't literally become blood. In Isaiah 13:10, we see that "the stars will not flash their light". This type of language was common for the prophets - not meant to be taken in a literal sense any more than we look for falling animals if it's raining cats and dogs.

That was a lot to cover, and I my lunch break is over. I may be able to check back in later this afternoon, but no guarantees. I'll be out for a few days, so it will be Tuesday when I can really spend more time with this topic. To paraphrase yourself, the Futurist View is as false as a Chevy Mustang. Take care, Brother.

 

[Revmitchell]

Hi @robycop3 . I've just discovered this post, otherwise I would have replied earlier. It's always an interesting topic. I suspect you are as passionate about Preterism as I am, and maybe even more so. A new understanding of the Olivet Discourse is largely why I changed to the Partial Preterist view. In Matthew 24:34, Jesus said "this generation will not pass until ALL these things come to pass". Couple of points - He said "this generation", not "that generation" or "the generation alive when these things start happening". The generation that saw the destruction of Jerusalem saw ALL of what He had described in the preceding 33 verses.

Your assumption is your personal understanding of "generation". Tell me what generation was it that murdered Zechariah in 23:35?

 

[Lodic]

Your assumption is your personal understanding of "generation". Tell me what generation was it that murdered Zechariah in 23:35?

I know that I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but I am just going over the scene here. Jesus was speaking of Adam (the first murder victim) to Zechariah, who is presumably the last martyr in the Hebrew canon. Jesus was exposing how corrupt the Pharisees were in this passage. Jesus made the context clear starting in verse 29 when He reveals their hypocrisy. The blood of the martyrs was on the heads of all the Pharisees. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus specifically said "this generation", and we should take this in the normal, everyday sense.

Besides the term "this generation", Jesus was telling His immediate audience of things that they would see, warning them of what they should do. The use of "use" was for them, not for an audience far off in their future.

 

[Revmitchell]

I know that I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but I am just going over the scene here. Jesus was speaking of Adam (the first murder victim) to Zechariah, who is presumably the last martyr in the Hebrew canon. Jesus was exposing how corrupt the Pharisees were in this passage. Jesus made the context clear starting in verse 29 when He reveals their hypocrisy. The blood of the martyrs was on the heads of all the Pharisees. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus specifically said "this generation", and we should take this in the normal, everyday sense.

Normal everyday sense to whom? You and me?

Notice it was "this generation" that was being accused of murdering those prophets of the past.

Since it was true that none of those alive at the time could have done so then "this generation" has to refer to something else. The term generation gets used in a number of contexts quite regularly. Simply put in their day "generation" (genea) was often used as "nation".

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi @robycop3 . I've just discovered this post, otherwise I would have replied earlier. It's always an interesting topic. I suspect you are as passionate about Preterism as I am, and maybe even more so. A new understanding of the Olivet Discourse is largely why I changed to the Partial Preterist view. In Matthew 24:34, Jesus said "this generation will not pass until ALL these things come to pass". Couple of points - He said "this generation", not "that generation" or "the generation alive when these things start happening". The generation that saw the destruction of Jerusalem saw ALL of what He had described in the preceding 33 verses.

We certainly agree that the prophecy in Matt. 24:2 literally came to pass. In the next verse, the disciples asked Jesus "When will these things happen? What will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the Age?" Note that "end of the Age" is the proper translation instead of the old "end of the world" we see in the KJV. The end of what age? He is talking about the end of the Old Covenant age. I know, you will object that Jesus instituted the New Covenant at the Last Supper. However, the Old Covenant didn't go away until the destruction of the Temple in AD 70.

Regarding Matt. 24:6-7, you mentioned that we've had wars since the time He spoke these words. True enough. In order for this to be a "sign", there had to be something significant going on. I suggest Jesus was referring to the "War of Four Emperors" (AD 66-70), which was (ironically) during the Pax Romana. This would be more of a sign since it happened during a time of "peace".

Verses 9-13 could easily describe the persecution during the Jewish Wars. Those who endured to the end were saved because Jesus warns them to flee Jerusalem in v. 16. As you know, the Christians fled to Pella to escape the persecution. On that note, it would not be possible to escape a worldwide tribulation in the way Jesus tells His followers. Also, in v. 20, Jesus is making a reference to the Sabbath Laws of His day. This would make no difference to modern Christians.

Has the Gospel been preached to all the world, as Jesus said in v. 14? While I am certainly no Greek scholar, I do know that the word for "world" used in this verse is "oikumene", meaning the known world, or the political realm. In this context, it points to the Roman Empire. The same word is used in Luke 2:1, where Augustus called for a census of the "oikumene". The following passages support the view that the Gospel was, in fact, preached in the whole "oikumene": Romans 1:8 (faith proclaimed throughout the whole world); Romans 16:26 (Gospel has been made known to all the nations); Colossians 1:3-6 (Gospel has come in all the world); Colossians 1:21-23 (proclaimed in all Creation); and 1 Timothy 3:16 (proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world).

In vs. 15-22, Jesus refers to the Abomination of Desolation from Daniel 9:26-27. I believe the sanctuary whose end will come with a flood refers to the temple which would be rebuilt by the returning exiles (Ezra 6:13-15). The AofD is also in Daniel 11:3. This may refer to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who sacrificed a pig on the altar. You stated that this is where the evil ruler enters the temple and proclaims himself to be the only god. I don't see that in Daniel 11. The king in vs. 36-45 could be Herod the Great.

Luke 21:20 gives a specific sign that Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies, and we agree this refers to the siege of AD 66-70. The Christians had to flee while they could. You mentioned that this wasn't a "hasty" flight from Jerusalem. Did Jesus say it would be a "hasty" flight? He told them to flee - to get out while they can.

After reading Luke 21 very closely (per your request), I am more convinced than ever that this was the "great tribulation" (aka "days of vengeance") that Jesus warned them about. The "cosmic destruction" language Jesus used was a common type of hyperbole. In Matthew 24:30, He quotes Daniel 7:13. Note that in Daniel, the Son of Man is going UP to the Ancient of Days - not DOWN to set up His kingdom. We see this "cloud language" used in Acts 2:17-21, which quotes Joel 2. The sun didn't literally turn dark, and the moon didn't literally become blood. In Isaiah 13:10, we see that "the stars will not flash their light". This type of language was common for the prophets - not meant to be taken in a literal sense any more than we look for falling animals if it's raining cats and dogs.

That was a lot to cover, and I my lunch break is over. I may be able to check back in later this afternoon, but no guarantees. I'll be out for a few days, so it will be Tuesday when I can really spend more time with this topic. To paraphrase yourself, the Futurist View is as false as a Chevy Mustang. Take care, Brother.

The Second Coming event will trigger the resurrection of the dead and living in Christ, Israel reborn as a nation in one day, Jesus setting up His kingdom rule, the Messianic Age is ushered in, NONE of that happened AD 70!

 

[Lodic]

Normal everyday sense to whom? You and me?

Notice it was "this generation" that was being accused of murdering those prophets of the past.

Since it was true that none of those alive at the time could have done so then "this generation" has to refer to something else. The term generation gets used in a number of contexts quite regularly. Simply put in their day "generation" (genea) was often used as "nation".

The normal everyday use as His original audience would have understood it - "soon" means "soon", "you will see" means "you will see", etc. It doesn't make sense for Him to have meant "nation" in this context. Occam's Razor would apply the simplest meaning unless it was obviously allegorical.

 

[Yeshua1]

The normal everyday use as His original audience would have understood it - "soon" means "soon", "you will see" means "you will see", etc. It doesn't make sense for Him to have meant "nation" in this context. Occam's Razor would apply the simplest meaning unless it was obviously allegorical.

Can also mean that when the Second Coming event is ready to happen, that itself will be soon!

 

[Lodic]

The Second Coming event will trigger the resurrection of the dead and living in Christ, Israel reborn as a nation in one day, Jesus setting up His kingdom rule, the Messianic Age is ushered in, NONE of that happened AD 70!

This was a "coming" in judgment on Jerusalem, not the Second Advent. Israel wasn't reborn as a nation in one day, though. This was a decades-long process that finally came to pass after WWII, thanks in large part to the Zionist Movement. Having said that, I fully support the modern state of Israel. I've read of His incredible hand of protection on the Israelis during the 6-Day War. They are our strongest ally in the Middle East. But I digress. My point here is that we should take the terms "this generation", "you will see", and similar phrases at their face value - to mean exactly what He said.

 

[Lodic]

Can also mean that when the Second Coming event is ready to happen, that itself will be soon!

Every generation from the 1st Century has been sure they were the generation that will see the Second Advent. Not to be a "Last Days Scoffer", but today is really no different.

 

[Revmitchell]

The normal everyday use as His original audience would have understood it - "soon" means "soon", "you will see" means "you will see", etc. It doesn't make sense for Him to have meant "nation" in this context. Occam's Razor would apply the simplest meaning unless it was obviously allegorical.

Yes in fact it does make sense. Especially given the context that those specific people could not have killed the prophets of the past even though the generation is being accused of it. You have to ignore that to interpret it your way.

 

[Lodic]

Yes in fact it does make sense. Especially given the context that those specific people could not have killed the prophets of the past even though the generation is being accused of it. You have to ignore that to interpret it your way.

To be completely honest, I don't see a conflict. From previous posts, I know you are a pretty smart guy. Maybe I'm just not getting it.

 

[Yeshua1]

This was a "coming" in judgment on Jerusalem, not the Second Advent. Israel wasn't reborn as a nation in one day, though. This was a decades-long process that finally came to pass after WWII, thanks in large part to the Zionist Movement. Having said that, I fully support the modern state of Israel. I've read of His incredible hand of protection on the Israelis during the 6-Day War. They are our strongest ally in the Middle East. But I digress. My point here is that we should take the terms "this generation", "you will see", and similar phrases at their face value - to mean exactly what He said.

Israel is still secular nation and people, but at the second coming, they will be spiritual reborn when they see Jesus Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Every generation from the 1st Century has been sure they were the generation that will see the Second Advent. Not to be a "Last Days Scoffer", but today is really no different.

Paul stated that God has not forgotten nor cast away Israel forever, so there was no "judgement" unto her by God AD 70!

 

[Lodic]

Israel is still secular nation and people, but at the second coming, they will be spiritual reborn when they see Jesus Christ!

I truly wish I could believe that. Then again, maybe us Preterists will be very pleasantly surprised at what happens when Christ returns.

 

[Lodic]

Paul stated that God has not forgotten nor cast away Israel forever, so there was no "judgement" unto her by God AD 70!

Paul also said that those who are in Christ are the "Israel of God". Judgment came upon the apostate Jews. (No, I don't believe in "Replacement Theology".)

 

[Revmitchell]

To be completely honest, I don't see a conflict. From previous posts, I know you are a pretty smart guy. Maybe I'm just not getting it.

Jesus called the people who were not alive when Zechariah was killed the generation that killed him. Not sure why that needs explaining.

 

[Lodic]

Jesus called the people who were not alive when Zechariah was killed the generation that killed him. Not sure why that needs explaining.

Not that I doubt that you see this, as you are a obviously a true Man of God. However, I don't see Him doing that at all, Brother. I see Jesus saying that the Pharisees that He was talking to were just as guilty as the ones who killed Zechariah and the other OT prophets.

 

[robycop3]

Lodic, two little probs with your view....

The first is obvious - The eschatological events Jesus & others prophesied have simply NOT YET OCCURRED! I have three encyclopediae in fronta me, Britannica, Collier's, & World Book - and NONE of those events are said in any of them to have already occurred.

Second is, the prophecies are LITERAL. Jesus said not one stone of the temple would be left upon another, & that was fulfilled LITERALLY, EXACTLY, TO THE LETTER, as were several others, such as war, rumor of war, persecution of Christians, etc.

The AOD was NOT the defiling of the temple by Antiochus. That occurred some 160 years before Jesus came. And Jesus said, "WHEN you see..."

And again, there were some 8 months between the Roman sieges of Jerusalem. The need for hasty flight has not yet arrived. That'll be when the antichrist performs the AOD in the coming temple.

And I refer to Matthew 24:29-30 in reference to Jesus' return. He said "IMMEDIATELY after the trib..." So, if the great trib has already occurred, those Scriptures are incorrect.

But the FACT is, that trib has not yet occurred. I believe that's pretty obvious, as it'll be worse than the world wars or any natural disasters that've already occurred.

You see, Lodic & Asterisk Tom, preterism is simply NOT SUPPORTED BY FACT!