Preterists Cannot Prove Their Assertions !

[Steve of Brownsburg]

Full does not use a literal method of rightly dividing Gods word. in 1 Cor 6:1-3, Just to give and example, Christ said that we would help judge the world and angels. If that has already happened then why wasn't Gods elect notified? Oh, it happened in 70 AD.

 

[robycop3]

Full does not use a literal method of rightly dividing Gods word. in 1 Cor 6:1-3, Just to give and example, Christ said that we would help judge the world and angels. If that has already happened then why wasn't Gods elect notified? Oh, it happened in 70 AD.

Same for "partial". In Matt. 24:29-30, Jesus said that IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trib, there'd be a great cosmological disturbance, during which He'd return.

 

[Yeshua1]

Paul also said that those who are in Christ are the "Israel of God". Judgment came upon the apostate Jews. (No, I don't believe in "Replacement Theology".)

Judgment comes from God to all who are still now In Adam though!

 

[Yeshua1]

Full does not use a literal method of rightly dividing Gods word. in 1 Cor 6:1-3, Just to give and example, Christ said that we would help judge the world and angels. If that has already happened then why wasn't Gods elect notified? Oh, it happened in 70 AD.

They see the AD 70 as the second coming of Jesus to judge reprobate Israel, and yet, Paul stated that God was not finished with her yet, and how much more glorious will it be when the Jews, the natural branches, are set back into salvation?
Also, the second coming will be the judgment against all of the kingdoms of Mankind, destroying mans world order in order to set up the Kingdom of Christ! That never happened yet...

 

[Covenanter]

They see the AD 70 as the second coming of Jesus to judge reprobate Israel, and yet, Paul stated that God was not finished with her yet, and how much more glorious will it be when the Jews, the natural branches, are set back into salvation?
Also, the second coming will be the judgment against all of the kingdoms of Mankind, destroying mans world order in order to set up the Kingdom of Christ! That never happened yet...

I've stayed out of this so far - only the watchers will be informed, the antipreterists will only be hardened.

I hope all would agree that AD 70 saw the judgment of the defiant & unrepentant Israelites for rejecting their Messiah, and the Apostolic Gospel offering free & full forgiveness & salvation. "This generation" perished as Jesus warned.

True, believing Israel comprised many thousands including -
the faithful remnant such as Zechariah & Elisabeth, Simeon, Anna, Mary, Joseph, the Shepherds;
the crowds who responded to John's preaching & baptism, who subsequently followed Jesus;
those baptised by Jesus & his disciples - many more than baptised by John;
3,000 converted at Pentecost, & 5,000 soon after, with continuous additions;
a large number of priests;
those of the dispersion who heard the Gospel from Paul & the 12 Apostles & other missionaries;
All these forming the New Covenant Church.

Israel as a nation was rejected, whereas Israel as a people was never rejected, nor could bein the eternal purposes of God. The church, which soon included Gentiles became God's Holy Nation in Christ. Compare God's conditional promise (IF) in Exodus 19 with the secure status of believers in Christ in 1 Peter 2.

Paul in Rom. 11 does not prophesy a future for Israel as a nation but salvation 7 "regrafting" for those who do not continue in unbelief. He has already expalined who are Israel in preceding chapters. And the future tense in Rom. 11:26 is because it is a quote from Isaiah, not because there will be a future deliverer from Zion. And of course many Jews would be saved in the future (from the time of Paul writing) as they turned to Christ.

There is no prophecy by Jesus or his Apostles of a reestablishment of a Jewish/Israelite nation. The "holy nation" was established by the saving work of their Saviour. As Zechariah explained -

2:3 While the angel who was speaking to me was leaving, another angel came to meet him 4 and said to him: ‘Run, tell that young man, “Jerusalem will be a city without walls because of the great number of people and animals in it. 5 And I myself will be a wall of fire around it,” declares the Lord, “and I will be its glory within.”
......
10 ‘Shout and be glad, Daughter Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,’ declares the Lord. 11 ‘Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you. 12 The Lord will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be still before the Lord, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling.’​

Notice the oft-repeated Covenant relationship - "11 ‘Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you."

Jer. 11:1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 ‘Listen to the terms of this covenant and tell them to the people of Judah and to those who live in Jerusalem. 3 Tell them that this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: “Cursed is the one who does not obey the terms of this covenant – 4 the terms I commanded your ancestors when I brought them out of Egypt, out of the iron-smelting furnace.” I said, “Obey me and do everything I command you, and you will be my people, and I will be your God. 5 Then I will fulfil the oath I swore to your ancestors, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey”– the land you possess today.’​

In the New Covenant Gospel, Jerusalem is a heavenly city, of which all believers are citizens.

 

[robycop3]

I've stayed out of this so far - only the watchers will be informed, the antipreterists will only be hardened.

I hope all would agree that AD 70 saw the judgment of the defiant & unrepentant Israelites for rejecting their Messiah, and the Apostolic Gospel offering free & full forgiveness & salvation. "This generation" perished as Jesus warned.

True, believing Israel comprised many thousands including -
the faithful remnant such as Zechariah & Elisabeth, Simeon, Anna, Mary, Joseph, the Shepherds;
the crowds who responded to John's preaching & baptism, who subsequently followed Jesus;
those baptised by Jesus & his disciples - many more than baptised by John;
3,000 converted at Pentecost, & 5,000 soon after, with continuous additions;
a large number of priests;
those of the dispersion who heard the Gospel from Paul & the 12 Apostles & other missionaries;
All these forming the New Covenant Church.

Israel as a nation was rejected, whereas Israel as a people was never rejected, nor could bein the eternal purposes of God. The church, which soon included Gentiles became God's Holy Nation in Christ. Compare God's conditional promise (IF) in Exodus 19 with the secure status of believers in Christ in 1 Peter 2.

Paul in Rom. 11 does not prophesy a future for Israel as a nation but salvation 7 "regrafting" for those who do not continue in unbelief. He has already expalined who are Israel in preceding chapters. And the future tense in Rom. 11:26 is because it is a quote from Isaiah, not because there will be a future deliverer from Zion. And of course many Jews would be saved in the future (from the time of Paul writing) as they turned to Christ.

There is no prophecy by Jesus or his Apostles of a reestablishment of a Jewish/Israelite nation. The "holy nation" was established by the saving work of their Saviour. As Zechariah explained -

2:3 While the angel who was speaking to me was leaving, another angel came to meet him 4 and said to him: ‘Run, tell that young man, “Jerusalem will be a city without walls because of the great number of people and animals in it. 5 And I myself will be a wall of fire around it,” declares the Lord, “and I will be its glory within.”
......
10 ‘Shout and be glad, Daughter Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,’ declares the Lord. 11 ‘Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you. 12 The Lord will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be still before the Lord, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling.’​

Notice the oft-repeated Covenant relationship - "11 ‘Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you."

Jer. 11:1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 ‘Listen to the terms of this covenant and tell them to the people of Judah and to those who live in Jerusalem. 3 Tell them that this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: “Cursed is the one who does not obey the terms of this covenant – 4 the terms I commanded your ancestors when I brought them out of Egypt, out of the iron-smelting furnace.” I said, “Obey me and do everything I command you, and you will be my people, and I will be your God. 5 Then I will fulfil the oath I swore to your ancestors, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey”– the land you possess today.’​

In the New Covenant Gospel, Jerusalem is a heavenly city, of which all believers are citizens.

OTOH, literal Judah and literal Israel are quite prominent in prophecy. AN ENTIRE CHAPTER OF SCRIPTURE, EZEKIEL 37, IS DEVOTED TO THIS PROMISE OF GOD'S ! !

Please remember that Zeke was quoting God directly! What symbolism there is in that chapter is in the vision of the dry bones, etc. but God explains its meanings to Zeke.

Fact is, right now, the majority of Jews don't live in Israel. Only about 6 million outta approx. 13 million Jews do. And we don't know who the people of the other tribes of Israel are right now. But God's promise/prophecy in Eze. 37 is unmistakable, and WILL cometa pass.

And when Jesus returns, He will reign from the current earthly city of Jerusalem. The "New J" won't descend until God redoes earth after the millenium is over.

 

[robycop3]

Rev. 21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[Yeshua1]

I've stayed out of this so far - only the watchers will be informed, the antipreterists will only be hardened.

I hope all would agree that AD 70 saw the judgment of the defiant & unrepentant Israelites for rejecting their Messiah, and the Apostolic Gospel offering free & full forgiveness & salvation. "This generation" perished as Jesus warned.

True, believing Israel comprised many thousands including -
the faithful remnant such as Zechariah & Elisabeth, Simeon, Anna, Mary, Joseph, the Shepherds;
the crowds who responded to John's preaching & baptism, who subsequently followed Jesus;
those baptised by Jesus & his disciples - many more than baptised by John;
3,000 converted at Pentecost, & 5,000 soon after, with continuous additions;
a large number of priests;
those of the dispersion who heard the Gospel from Paul & the 12 Apostles & other missionaries;
All these forming the New Covenant Church.

Israel as a nation was rejected, whereas Israel as a people was never rejected, nor could bein the eternal purposes of God. The church, which soon included Gentiles became God's Holy Nation in Christ. Compare God's conditional promise (IF) in Exodus 19 with the secure status of believers in Christ in 1 Peter 2.

Paul in Rom. 11 does not prophesy a future for Israel as a nation but salvation 7 "regrafting" for those who do not continue in unbelief. He has already expalined who are Israel in preceding chapters. And the future tense in Rom. 11:26 is because it is a quote from Isaiah, not because there will be a future deliverer from Zion. And of course many Jews would be saved in the future (from the time of Paul writing) as they turned to Christ.

There is no prophecy by Jesus or his Apostles of a reestablishment of a Jewish/Israelite nation. The "holy nation" was established by the saving work of their Saviour. As Zechariah explained -

2:3 While the angel who was speaking to me was leaving, another angel came to meet him 4 and said to him: ‘Run, tell that young man, “Jerusalem will be a city without walls because of the great number of people and animals in it. 5 And I myself will be a wall of fire around it,” declares the Lord, “and I will be its glory within.”
......
10 ‘Shout and be glad, Daughter Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,’ declares the Lord. 11 ‘Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you. 12 The Lord will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be still before the Lord, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling.’​

Notice the oft-repeated Covenant relationship - "11 ‘Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you."

Jer. 11:1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 ‘Listen to the terms of this covenant and tell them to the people of Judah and to those who live in Jerusalem. 3 Tell them that this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: “Cursed is the one who does not obey the terms of this covenant – 4 the terms I commanded your ancestors when I brought them out of Egypt, out of the iron-smelting furnace.” I said, “Obey me and do everything I command you, and you will be my people, and I will be your God. 5 Then I will fulfil the oath I swore to your ancestors, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey”– the land you possess today.’​

In the New Covenant Gospel, Jerusalem is a heavenly city, of which all believers are citizens.

In this present Age, both Jews and Gentiles saved make up spiritual Israel, but at time of the second coming, Kingdom age ushered in, and national Israel shall be reborn again unto God at that time!

 

[Yeshua1]

OTOH, literal Judah and literal Israel are quite prominent in prophecy. AN ENTIRE CHAPTER OF SCRIPTURE, EZEKIEL 37, IS DEVOTED TO THIS PROMISE OF GOD'S ! !

Please remember that Zeke was quoting God directly! What symbolism there is in that chapter is in the vision of the dry bones, etc. but God explains its meanings to Zeke.

Fact is, right now, the majority of Jews don't live in Israel. Only about 6 million outta approx. 13 million Jews do. And we don't know who the people of the other tribes of Israel are right now. But God's promise/prophecy in Eze. 37 is unmistakable, and WILL cometa pass.

And when Jesus returns, He will reign from the current earthly city of Jerusalem. The "New J" won't descend until God redoes earth after the millenium is over.

Zech prophecy was for Israel to be reborn unto God, and that did NOT happen in 1948!

 

[Covenanter]

OTOH, literal Judah and literal Israel are quite prominent in prophecy. AN ENTIRE CHAPTER OF SCRIPTURE, EZEKIEL 37, IS DEVOTED TO THIS PROMISE OF GOD'S ! !

Please remember that Zeke was quoting God directly! What symbolism there is in that chapter is in the vision of the dry bones, etc. but God explains its meanings to Zeke.

Fact is, right now, the majority of Jews don't live in Israel. Only about 6 million outta approx. 13 million Jews do. And we don't know who the people of the other tribes of Israel are right now. But God's promise/prophecy in Eze. 37 is unmistakable, and WILL cometa pass.

And when Jesus returns, He will reign from the current earthly city of Jerusalem. The "New J" won't descend until God redoes earth after the millenium is over.

Zech prophecy was for Israel to be reborn unto God, and that did NOT happen in 1948!

Ezekiel was prophesying during the exile to those who had lost land, city and temple.

The prophecy was fulfilled for its hearers by the return. The perfect fulfilment needed the incarnation of Messiah and his saving work, and his ascension to the throne the LORD, David's promised throne.

The Gospel is the fulfilment of God's promises to the Patriarchs. Perfect fulfilment awaits his return to establish the New Heaven and New Earth.

 

[robycop3]

Ezekiel was prophesying during the exile to those who had lost land, city and temple.

The prophecy was fulfilled for its hearers by the return. The perfect fulfilment needed the incarnation of Messiah and his saving work, and his ascension to the throne the LORD, David's promised throne.

The Gospel is the fulfilment of God's promises to the Patriarchs. Perfect fulfilment awaits his return to establish the New Heaven and New Earth.

Ah, but please note that ONLY THE JEWS returned. Just a few members of any of the other tribes of Israel went with them. But GOD told Zeke the bones represented the WHOLE House of israel.

 

[Covenanter]

Full does not use a literal method of rightly dividing Gods word. in 1 Cor 6:1-3, Just to give and example, Christ said that we would help judge the world and angels. If that has already happened then why wasn't Gods elect notified? Oh, it happened in 70 AD.

Hi Steve - welcome to the forum. I hold to what is called "partial preterism" and an amillennial understanding that considers that the present age is referred to in Rev. 20. Jesus will return at the end of the age for resurrection & judgment.

Jesus assured his Apostles that the prophecies concerning Messiah in the OT were fulfilled in himself. The people of God would comprise the redeemed from all nations, as promised to Abram in Gen. 12, & the Patriarchs. Peter takes up this Covenant in Acts 3, as he warns the Israelites about not listening to the Prophet. They are in danger of being completely cut off. Acts 3:17-26

Same for "partial". In Matt. 24:29-30, Jesus said that IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trib, there'd be a great cosmological disturbance, during which He'd return.

The language is that of judgments in OT times - see Isa. 13 concerning the destruction of Babylon by the Medes.

No. We don't follow a literal interpretation of OT prophecy but we see it, As Hebrews tells us, as being "copies & shadows" of the New Covenant. See Heb. 8.

The events prophesied are real events, often given in figurative terms. We need to understand the circumstances of the prophecy, & to see a relevance in the life & ministry of Jesus, & further fulfilment in the Gospel, first to Israel & the new formed church, then to the Gentiles as the Gospel went out to all nations.

God's dealings with Israel as a nation ended in AD 70. His Gospel welcome to Jews & other Israelites continues down the Gospel age.

 

[Revmitchell]

Ah, but please note that ONLY THE JEWS returned. Just a few members of any of the other tribes of Israel went with them. But GOD told Zeke the bones represented the WHOLE House of israel.

You are wasting your time. Prets redefine things like generation and throne of David. If they started actually defining them as scripture does their doctrine falls apart.

 

[robycop3]

Hi Steve - welcome to the forum. I hold to what is called "partial preterism" and an amillennial understanding that considers that the present age is referred to in Rev. 20. Jesus will return at the end of the age for resurrection & judgment.

Jesus assured his Apostles that the prophecies concerning Messiah in the OT were fulfilled in himself. The people of God would comprise the redeemed from all nations, as promised to Abram in Gen. 12, & the Patriarchs. Peter takes up this Covenant in Acts 3, as he warns the Israelites about not listening to the Prophet. They are in danger of being completely cut off. Acts 3:17-26



The language is that of judgments in OT times - see Isa. 13 concerning the destruction of Babylon by the Medes.

No. We don't follow a literal interpretation of OT prophecy but we see it, As Hebrews tells us, as being "copies & shadows" of the New Covenant. See Heb. 8.

The events prophesied are real events, often given in figurative terms. We need to understand the circumstances of the prophecy, & to see a relevance in the life & ministry of Jesus, & further fulfilment in the Gospel, first to Israel & the new formed church, then to the Gentiles as the Gospel went out to all nations.

God's dealings with Israel as a nation ended in AD 70. His Gospel welcome to Jews & other Israelites continues down the Gospel age.

No, God is NOT finished with literal Israel & Judah. He has miraculously preserved the Jews as a distinct people, though by all human standards, they shoulda gone "extinct" long ago. And he knows who the rest of the Israelis are today. Remember, He has promised to make them one nation again.

As for partial preterism, I shall go back to Matt. 24:29-30 again & again. The words of Jesus are pretty plain there. They prove partial preterism as false as full preterism is.

 

[robycop3]

You are wasting your time. Prets redefine things like generation and throne of David. If they started actually defining them as scripture does their doctrine falls apart.

Well, we can't let their hooey go unanswered, lest some newer Christians lose their faith in Jesus' coming return.

 

[Lodic]

Lodic, two little probs with your view....

The first is obvious - The eschatological events Jesus & others prophesied have simply NOT YET OCCURRED! I have three encyclopediae in fronta me, Britannica, Collier's, & World Book - and NONE of those events are said in any of them to have already occurred.

Second is, the prophecies are LITERAL. Jesus said not one stone of the temple would be left upon another, & that was fulfilled LITERALLY, EXACTLY, TO THE LETTER, as were several others, such as war, rumor of war, persecution of Christians, etc.

The AOD was NOT the defiling of the temple by Antiochus. That occurred some 160 years before Jesus came. And Jesus said, "WHEN you see..."

And again, there were some 8 months between the Roman sieges of Jerusalem. The need for hasty flight has not yet arrived. That'll be when the antichrist performs the AOD in the coming temple.

And I refer to Matthew 24:29-30 in reference to Jesus' return. He said "IMMEDIATELY after the trib..." So, if the great trib has already occurred, those Scriptures are incorrect.

But the FACT is, that trib has not yet occurred. I believe that's pretty obvious, as it'll be worse than the world wars or any natural disasters that've already occurred.

You see, Lodic & Asterisk Tom, preterism is simply NOT SUPPORTED BY FACT!

From the Preterist perspective, it's quite obvious that these events have occurred. Jesus quoted from the OT in Matt. 24:29-31. The prophets often used symbolic language to describe events. The disciples were familiar with this "language", and understood it to be symbolic and not literal. Consider how Acts 2 quotes Joel 2. Yet, the sun was not turned into darkness nor the moon into blood.

Regarding the 8-month break - Nobody in Jerusalem had any idea how long the Roman armies were going to be gone. For all they knew, the Romans could come back in a few days. To make a long answer short, the Dispensationalist interpretation is weak and cannot be supported by Scripture. We can go back and forth all day on this, because each of us are fully convinced that their view is correct and the opposing view is ridiculous. It really comes down to how one interprets Scripture, and each of us are sure we interpret correctly.

 

[Lodic]

Judgment comes from God to all who are still now In Adam though!

Not quite sure what your point is here. Are you suggesting that the Jews are judged differently from Gentiles? In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor free.

 

[Lodic]

You are wasting your time. Prets redefine things like generation and throne of David. If they started actually defining them as scripture does their doctrine falls apart.

From the Preterist perspective, those terms have been redefined by the Dispensationalists. As I mentioned to Roby earlier, it's largely a matter of interpretation - especially as to what is "literal" vs symbolic. Good thing our salvation doesn't depend upon our eschatological view .

 

[robycop3]

From the Preterist perspective, it's quite obvious that these events have occurred. Jesus quoted from the OT in Matt. 24:29-31. The prophets often used symbolic language to describe events.

The disciples had asked Jesus some questions, and He answered them matter-of-factly. And we see those parts of the Olivet Discourse that HAVE come to pass have done so LITERALLY, EXACTLY, TO-THE-LETTER. I pointed out those things in the OP of this thread. Thus, there's no reason to believe the rest of the OD isn't as literal as the parts that are fulfilled.

While you seemtabee a bright fellow, you need to learn that preterism is all man-made and false. The jeezits invented it to protect the pope from being called the antichrist.

The disciples were familiar with this "language", and understood it to be symbolic and not literal. Consider how Acts 2 quotes Joel 2. Yet, the sun was not turned into darkness nor the moon into blood.

That's for the simple, obvious reason that it HASN'T HAPPENED YET! The sun & moon will be partially obscured by the smoke & dust from the cosmological disturbance Jesus prophesied in Matt. 24:29-30 & that Joel mentioned as well. Remember, Joel mentioned columns of fire as well.

Regarding the 8-month break - Nobody in Jerusalem had any idea how long the Roman armies were going to be gone. For all they knew, the Romans could come back in a few days. To make a long answer short, the Dispensationalist interpretation is weak and cannot be supported by Scripture. We can go back and forth all day on this, because each of us are fully convinced that their view is correct and the opposing view is ridiculous. It really comes down to how one interprets Scripture, and each of us are sure we interpret correctly.

Well, actually, the "dispy explanation" is supported by reality and actual history. And Jesus said that when the "abomination of desolation" was seen, it'd be time to skeedaddle at once! (Matt. 24:16-17) He didn't say anything in Matthew about armies surrounding J, but He did in Luke 21:20-24. Putting these Scriptures together, we see that the destruction of J & the temple was part of the "days of vengeance" Jesus had prophesied against the Jews for all the murders of the righteous up til that time, from Abel onward. BUT THE PROPHESIED ESCHATOLOGICAL EVENTS SIMPLY HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED!

Now, why do I believe my view of Biblical prophecy is correct? As I said earlier, I have three encyclopediae, Britannica, Collier's, & World Book, in fronta me, among many other boox. And NONE of them have the slightest hint of any of these events having already occurred. Remember, SCRIPTURE SHAPES HISTORY, not vice versa, so a reality check shows those prophesied events are still future. Prets attempt to "symbolize" any "inconvenient" Scriptures of prophecy that's yet to be fulfilled, as their doctrine is more important to them than the TRUTH is.

As I said, you seemtabee a bright fellow, so isn't it time for you to take another closer, detailed, in-depth look at preterism and realize it can't possibly be true?

 

[robycop3]

From the Preterist perspective, those terms have been redefined by the Dispensationalists. As I mentioned to Roby earlier, it's largely a matter of interpretation - especially as to what is "literal" vs symbolic. Good thing our salvation doesn't depend upon our eschatological view .

Again, can you give us ONE GOOD REASON why the unfulfilled parts of the Olivet Discourse should be viewed as symbolic, when the rest has been fulfilled LITERALLY, TO-THE-LETTER, as I pointed out in the OP of this thread?