Preterists Cannot Prove Their Assertions !

[Lodic]

But what you told me was WRONG. I know better. I have many more years' studying these false doctrines than you do, and more-than-an-average knowledge of history. That "Nero = beast" stuff is garbage, as is "Israel = false prophet". As I said, Gentry, Preston, etc. are crackpots.

I appreciate your wisdom, knowledge, and experience - really. That doesn't guarantee the you are right in this point. Remember that Elihu provided more wisdom to Job than did Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar.

 

[37818]

The rapture, the idea that God has separate plans for the Jews vs Gentiles, the view that we are living in the end times - I don't see Biblical support for any of those views. Having said that, I believe there are several dispensationalist views, but I think the things I've mentioned are common to each of them. Regardless, the Partial Preterist view is the only one that really makes sense to me.

Ah, no. The rapture is explicitly taught, ". . . shall be caught up . . " 1 Thessalonians 4:17. And a distinction is made between the Jews and Gentiles in the church, Romans 1:16; Galatians 6:16; Revelation 21:12-14. So I am not understanding your problem. BTW, I am a post-trib futurist. I hold the Jews and Gentiles are raptured at the same time (Matthew 24:29-31).

 

[37818]

And again, you are mistaken, Brother. I'm not disputing whether "you" can refer to a plural audience, but whether it does in the context. In this case, Jesus is speaking to His immediate audience, not to an audience 2,000 years in the future. Remember, the books / epistles of the Bible were not written TO us, but they were written FOR us. In the example you quoted, Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again. However, this was to teach us that everyone must be born again. Not the same thing as saying that "you will see these signs", because everyone can't possibly see the same signs - especially if they live in different eras.

It can be aruged the Apostle Paul used "we" with the Corithians to include himself regarding the rapture, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, ". . . we shall be changed. . . ."

As for being in different parts of the globe, the implication is that those events will be visible in the nation of Israel.

 

[Revmitchell]

Especially for @Revmitchell and @robycop3 - Since I was asked about the seals, trumpets, and bowls in Revelation, I am providing the following material. This was provided by our good friend @kyredneck :
The Covenant Judgments of Revelation
By Duncan McKenzie, Ph.D.
2006

Four sets of seven:

18 And if ye will not yet for these things hearken unto me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sins.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me, I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
24 then will I also walk contrary unto you; and I will smite you, even I, seven times for your sins.
28 then I will walk contrary unto you in wrath; and I also will chastise you seven times for your sins. Lev 26

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, Come. Rev 6
6 And the seven angels that had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. Rev 8
4 And when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying, Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. Rev 10
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, Go ye, and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth. Rev 16

I want to know your defense using scripture of all of this.

 

[Lodic]

I want to know your defense using scripture of all of this.

Scripture is pretty clear, so I really don't know what you mean here.

 

[Revmitchell]

Scripture is pretty clear, so I really don't know what you mean here.

You disappoint me. You have been so nice up to now and then this arrogance.

 

[37818]

Scripture is pretty clear, so I really don't know what you mean here.

The Preterist interpertation is not a clear understandind of holy scripture.

 

[Lodic]

You disappoint me. You have been so nice up to now and then this arrogance.

My apologies, Brother. I'm not trying to be arrogant. I truly don't know what you are getting to with your question.

 

[Lodic]

The Preterist interpertation is not a clear understandind of holy scripture.

What do you base this on? (By the way, I haven't forgotten your earlier comments regarding the Rapture, etc. I won't have time to address that until tomorrow. Got a report to finish up. I only have time for quick answers right now.

 

[David Kent]

The disciples had asked Jesus some questions, and He answered them matter-of-factly. And we see those parts of the Olivet Discourse that HAVE come to pass have done so LITERALLY, EXACTLY, TO-THE-LETTER. I pointed out those things in the OP of this thread. Thus, there's no reason to believe the rest of the OD isn't as literal as the parts that are fulfilled.

While you seemtabee a bright fellow, you need to learn that preterism is all man-made and false. The jeezits invented it to protect the pope from being called the antichrist.



That's for the simple, obvious reason that it HASN'T HAPPENED YET! The sun & moon will be partially obscured by the smoke & dust from the cosmological disturbance Jesus prophesied in Matt. 24:29-30 & that Joel mentioned as well. Remember, Joel mentioned columns of fire as well.



Well, actually, the "dispy explanation" is supported by reality and actual history. And Jesus said that when the "abomination of desolation" was seen, it'd be time to skeedaddle at once! (Matt. 24:16-17) He didn't say anything in Matthew about armies surrounding J, but He did in Luke 21:20-24. Putting these Scriptures together, we see that the destruction of J & the temple was part of the "days of vengeance" Jesus had prophesied against the Jews for all the murders of the righteous up til that time, from Abel onward. BUT THE PROPHESIED ESCHATOLOGICAL EVENTS SIMPLY HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED!

Now, why do I believe my view of Biblical prophecy is correct? As I said earlier, I have three encyclopediae, Britannica, Collier's, & World Book, in fronta me, among many other boox. And NONE of them have the slightest hint of any of these events having already occurred. Remember, SCRIPTURE SHAPES HISTORY, not vice versa, so a reality check shows those prophesied events are still future. Prets attempt to "symbolize" any "inconvenient" Scriptures of prophecy that's yet to be fulfilled, as their doctrine is more important to them than the TRUTH is.

As I said, you seemtabee a bright fellow, so isn't it time for you to take another closer, detailed, in-depth look at preterism and realize it can't possibly be true?

You just ignore the fact that sun moon and stars in prophecy, OT and NT, refer to people. THAT is the literal interpretation.

 

[David Kent]

The symbolic represents something literal

Of course don't you understand scripture?

 

[David Kent]

Yes, Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed just as Jesus said. But there was NO 'beast', NO marka the beast, NO great trib, and certainly NO physical, visible return of Jesus.

You are severely mixed up. Jesus does not menton the beast or the matk of the beast but doest mention the great tribulation on Israel which happened in AD 66-70.

 

[David Kent]

No, it WASN'T! Jesus said it'd be the worst disaster to ever hit mankind,

Another futurist misquote of scripture. Jesus :

• Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Affliction such as, not worse than.

 

[David Kent]

Ah, no. The rapture is explicitly taught, ". . . shall be caught up . . " 1 Thessalonians 4:17. And a distinction is made between the Jews and Gentiles in the church, Romans 1:16; Galatians 6:16; Revelation 21:12-14. So

Yes we shall all be caught up to meet the Lord in the air as he descends, but that is not what the futurists teach Not one of theose verses you teach say there is a distinction between Jewish and gentile believers.

 

[David Kent]

The Preterist interpertation is not a clear understandind of holy scripture.

The futurist teaching certainly is not.

 

[robycop3]

I would never disagree with Scriptures, but I most certainly disagree with incorrect interpretations of them.

There's only one way to "interpret" most Scripture - AS WRITTEN in the ancient mss.

Great Trib - Yes, it happened from AD 66-70. We will not agree on this.

You're right; we won't agree cuz it DIDN'T happen then. That time was the "days of vengeance" jesus prophesied against the Jews. There have been far-greater disasters since then, such as the nazi holocaust against the Jews.

Agreed, we are still awaiting the 2nd Coming of Christ. (That is the main point where I disagree with Full Preterism.)

Gentry's "Before Jerusalem Fell" makes a very strong case for the early writing of Revelation - in the late 60s.

Then, you should alse agree that partial preterism is false, as Jesus said there'd be a great cosmological disturbance IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib(Matt. 24:29-30) during which He shall return.

I believe the futurist view was virtually unknown before the Council of Nicea (AD 325), but I agree that a few believers had this view. Preterism predates the futurist view.

And preterism is wholly MAN-MADE.

It would be pretty easy to make a case that "futurists" are in it for the money.

Both sides have people in it for the money.

 

[robycop3]

You don't take any of the evidence that I present as "credible" because you are looking for something entirely different. We need to be careful not to interpret fulfilled prophecy as if it were still unfilled. That's the mistake Jews make - still looking for the Messiah when He came 2,000 years ago. The key to understanding the mysteries of Revelation is from the time statements (soon, near, at hand) and from the symbolic language. Many of the figures are not meant to be taken literally (metaphors, similes, hyperbole, etc.)

We've been discussing the Beast and the Great Tribulation, but you disagree with everything I've said. In Revelation 7:3, we see that God seals His bond-servants on their foreheads. The Mark of the Beast was Satan's counterfeit mark. Do you believe God's servants will receive a literal mark in the future? If not, why would you believe the Mark of the Beast will be literal? This is about those Jews who aligned themselves with the Old Covenant system who were "marked" for access into the temple. (For further reading, see "Last Days Madness" by Gary DeMar, page 250.)

Daniel, Paul, and JESUS all spoke of a MAN who will be the 'beast'. I proved that Nero was NOT the beast. That man is yet to come upon the world stage, if he's even been born yet. So, we know he will be a LITERAL man.

The context of the Scripture should showya that the marka the beast will be literal, as no one may buy or sell without it. Buying/selling are not supernatural processes. I believe that mark will be some sorta microchip. The tech for such now exists. As for God's mark upon His servants, it will be real, & it may or may not be visible to other men. (Remember, God set some kinda mark on Cain, so he wouldn't be killed when he entered a town new to him.)

Gary DeMar is an extremist with some rather-heterodox views, who's on my "Clowns" list.

There's simply NO VALID REASON to believe the marka the beast won't be literal. As for believing it's already come & gone, that's nonsense.

 

[robycop3]

I meant to reply to this comment earlier. Brother Roby, if I truly thought that Preterism was false, I would repent and run from it.

Then, you SHOULD! You haven't presented one bit of credible evidence supporting it. But at least you're staying away from the obviously-goofy stuff such as "Josephus saw/heard chariots in the sky above Jerusalem."

Discerning truth from error is far more important than hanging on to any doctrine or view because of stubborn pride. I left the premillennial dispensationalist / futurist view many years ago because I became convinced of the truth of the preterist view. I stand by this view because I believe it to be true, not because it fascinates me or because I like to argue.

I don't see how anyone who has any knowledge of ancient world history could be convinced that preterism is truthful! There's not one quark of EVIDENCE supporting it!

You're acting in typical pret fashion. When asked about such things as the marka the beast, etc. you retreat into the shell of "Those Scriptures are SYMBOLIC!"

Well, it WON'T WORK!

We see Jesus' prophecies that HAVE already been fulfilled as being fulfilled LITERALLY, TO-THE-LETTER, and not just the Olivet Discourse. Jesus prophesied about his own death, saying it'd be by crucifixion, that all His disciples would temporarily desert Him, , etc. etc.

And again, the LITERAL fulfillment so far of the Olivet Discourse is most-telling! No one can truthfully deny the FACTS posted in the OP of this thread. There's simply NO CREDIBLE REASON to believe the fulfillment of the remainder won't be JUST-AS-LITERAL as the already-accomplished fulfillments.

Sorry, but preterism is built upon a man-made foundation of hot air. Scripture & history prove it false. I have asked you to provide **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** that the events prets SAY have already occurred, HAVE actually already occurred, and you've come up EMPTY, still trying to reduce Scriptures that are inconvenient to the pret view to "symbolic" status.WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO FOOL YOURSELF??????????????????????????

This reminds me about a story of Hermann Goering during WW2. Goering told the German people that "if one enemy bomb falls upon Germany, you can call me Meyer."(an insult to Germans of that time) Shortly after he said that, the British bombed a german city; in that fight, some british planes were shot down. Some soldiers had Goering come & inspect the remains of one plane, which was very-obviously British. Goering made all sorts of excuses, and finally issued an "executive order" that this plane was NOT British, & NO British bombs fell upon Germany! That's what preterism reminds me of; A DENIAL OF REALITY!

Stay tuned for the coming "Your Hero Nero" thread!

 

[robycop3]

You are severely mixed up. Jesus does not menton the beast or the matk of the beast but doest mention the great tribulation on Israel which happened in AD 66-70.

Not at all. It was JESUS' messenger angels who gave the Revelation, with Jesus Himself giving the first part.

 

[robycop3]

Another futurist misquote of scripture. Jesus :

• Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Affliction such as, not worse than.

part of why I don't use the KJV too much.

Mark 13;19, NIV - because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.