Preterists Cannot Prove Their Assertions !

[Lodic]

The Second Coming event ends history as we now know it, as all things will then be under the reign of Christ directly!

No argument there, Brother. While I believe Jesus "came" in judgment on Jerusalem in AD 70, that is not the same as the 2nd Advent, which we are still looking forward to.

 

[37818]

passage from Matt. 24:29-31 is symbolic language pointing to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 66-70. Heavenly bodies often symbolize earthly rulers and governments.

That is your assertion. Present the irrefutable hermeneutic for this alleged conclusion.

 

[Lodic]

When did the dead and alive in Christ come out of their graves resurrected then?

That hasn't happened yet (other than the guys who came out of their graves when Christ was crucified, of course). As a Partial Preterist, I believe the events at the end of Revelation are still in our future.

 

[Lodic]

Still seeking the shelter of pret "symbolism".,eh? Many prets of the past dropped that myth when modern Israel was formed & their "symbolic" Jewish nation went "POOF!" But the myth didn't die. New quacks such as Preston, DelMar, & Gentry arose to write more bunk. They 've found a cash cow they intend to milk, long as gullible people buy their boox. it's all phony as a Ford Corvette.

Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 is not a fulfillment of prophecy. Having said that, I won't argue that God hasn't blessed them, especially during their many conflicts. I'm not looking for "proof" of Preterist symbolism, as I am 100% convinced. To those who will not believe it, no amount of proof will be enough.

 

[Lodic]

That is your assertion. Present the irrefutable hermeneutic for this alleged conclusion.

The proof is in the pudding. Where is the proof for the futurist view? When it comes down to it, you won't convince me, and I won't convince you.

 

[Lodic]

No. Either the so called third possibility is what is true, in which case it should be explicitly in evidence, or only the futurist position is the only possihle correct understanding in order for it to be true.

Matthew 24:29-31 has not literally happened as yet. That is the fact. Please present your hermeneutic in a clear irrefutable way.

Heremenutics is basically "how do you know what you know". I've been presenting that all along. Where is the proof that the Olivet Discourse was NOT referring to the destruction of Jerusalem (which everyone knows came to pass in AD 70)?

 

[Yeshua1]

That hasn't happened yet (other than the guys who came out of their graves when Christ was crucified, of course). As a Partial Preterist, I believe the events at the end of Revelation are still in our future.

The Preterist who states that ALL prophecy has already been fulfilled concerning Second Coming is holding to heretical theology in that regard!

 

[robycop3]

Would the sun and moon being obscured really be so unusual that the prophets had to write that down? While they don't happen every day, it's not all that rare either. Meteors are definitely not rare, and not worthy of a prophet making special mention of them. Therefore, I must respectfully disagree.

When ALL THOSE THINGS HAPPEN AT ONCE, along with other signs in the sky, it's VERY unusual, & that's why Jesus mentions them.

We've gone around and around about how the tribulation had already occurred. I don't think either of us have said anything for a while that we haven't already said in the course of this discussion. You will keep going back to the "literal end-of-the-world" argument, and I will keep coming back with the "symbolic-of-the-destruction-of-Jerusalem" argument.

But you CANNOT PROVE yours, while I can point to other parts of the Olivet Discourse that have cometa pass EXACTLY, TO-THE-LETTER. All you can do is try to bury the yet-to-be-fulfilled events in "symbolism". There are no "proofs" you can point out.

As I said, the birth of modern Israel in 1948 smadgered lotsa pret guesswork & led many of them to drop that false doctrine. I reckon it'll take the Jews' building a new temple, or the beast's coming to power to head you outta darkness.

 

[robycop3]

Heremenutics is basically "how do you know what you know". I've been presenting that all along. Where is the proof that the Olivet Discourse was NOT referring to the destruction of Jerusalem (which everyone knows came to pass in AD 70)?

The OD DID refer to J's then-coming destruction in Luke 21:20. In Matt. 24:29-30, Jesus describes some events that'll herald His return.

 

[robycop3]

To the contrary, you are only parroting the same old "end of the world" scenario that has been around for years. Not a shred of evidence for these claims.

You're assuming that cuz it HASN'T yet happened, that it WON'T. Again, lemme point out the founding of modern Israel against ALL human odds! Just ask any elderly Christian if a reborn Israel seemed possible in 1945! With the birth of that nation, a whole lotta pret hooey went "POOF!" in their faces!

 

[robycop3]

Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 is not a fulfillment of prophecy.

ON THE CONTRARY - Jeremiah 31:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Once again they will speak this word in the land of Judah and in its cities when I restore their fortunes, 'The LORD bless you, O abode of righteousness, O holy hill!'


“‘And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, “Will you not show us what you mean by these?”—say to them, “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.’” … Then say to them, “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again’”’” (Ezekiel 37:16-19, 21-22).

Having said that, I won't argue that God hasn't blessed them, especially during their many conflicts. I'm not looking for "proof" of Preterist symbolism, as I am 100% convinced. To those who will not believe it, no amount of proof will be enough.

I don't see what convinces you besides the writings of the quack pret authors. There's NO Scriptural nor historical evidence supporting a thing prets say. I showed you that nero couldn'ta been the beast, & JESUS showed you He will return just after the great trib. It's simple logic & common sense that if the trib has already occurred, then Matt. 24:29-30 is incorrect. I choose to believe JESUS at His word, while you apparently choose to believe a gang of men writing a load of hooey that has no proof of truth.

 

[Lodic]

The Preterist who states that ALL prophecy has already been fulfilled concerning Second Coming is holding to heretical theology in that regard!

Not sure if I'd go so far as to call it heresy. While this is a different eschatological view, I reserve the term "heresy" for things of "eternal significance" - e.g. the nature of Jesus, the Trinity, etc.

 

[Lodic]

When ALL THOSE THINGS HAPPEN AT ONCE, along with other signs in the sky, it's VERY unusual, & that's why Jesus mentions them.



But you CANNOT PROVE yours, while I can point to other parts of the Olivet Discourse that have cometa pass EXACTLY, TO-THE-LETTER. All you can do is try to bury the yet-to-be-fulfilled events in "symbolism". There are no "proofs" you can point out.

As I said, the birth of modern Israel in 1948 smadgered lotsa pret guesswork & led many of them to drop that false doctrine. I reckon it'll take the Jews' building a new temple, or the beast's coming to power to head you outta darkness.

If the futurist claims actually could be proven, I'm sure you would have done so by now. You are still left with conjecture.

Even IF the Jews did build a new temple, that would not necessarily prove that was in fulfillment of prophecy. I do recall that the Jews did start to rebuild it around the 3rd or 4th Century, but an earthquake destroyed it before they got past the foundation.

I see that you've posted the "Nero" thread. I won't be able to read and comment on it before Monday around noon (in Texas).

 

[Lodic]

The OD DID refer to J's then-coming destruction in Luke 21:20. In Matt. 24:29-30, Jesus describes some events that'll herald His return.

"Futurists" do not distinguish between His "coming in judgment" (via the Roman armies) and the 2nd Advent. God "visited" different nations in judgment without literally coming down to them.

 

[robycop3]

Taking Scripture at face value is not the same as taking all Scripture with the literal view you hold to. Earlier you acknowledged that Scripture does use symbolism, which always points to something literal. On that basis, I am taking Scripture at their "sensus literalis" value - according to the literal meaning of the passage. As a reminder, that is looking at whether it is historical, poetic, etc.

Most Scripture is literal. As I said earlier, God has made it His absolutes.

You stated that Jesus said J would be destroyed in Luke 21. daniel has already prophesied the Roman destruction as well. Nothing symbolic about it. Let's take a closer look at Luke 21. V. 20 - When Jerusalem is surrounded by armies, her desolation (not destruction) is near. If we take what Jesus said literally, the ones who need to flee are in Judea; those in the city need to split, etc. They are in danger of falling by the sword. This describes 1st century Jerusalem to a "T", of course. I know you actually agree with me on this point.

Desolation involves destruction. "Made desolate" means "destroyed".

Starting in vs. 25, Jesus said there will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars. This clearly states that He is speaking symbolically from that point.

No, it means exactly what Jesus said. Joel spoke of it also.

You will either have to remind me of specifically where Daniel speaks of the Roman destruction.

Easy enough!

Daniel 9:26“And after the sixty-two weeksMessiah shall ]be cut off, but not for Himself;And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.The end of it shall be with a flood,And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

When I tell ya something is in Scripture, I'm not making it up. I study scripture a lot. I have eleven different English Bible translations, & I read'em all. Besides , it's a sin to lie, so when I say it's in Scripture, it's true.

 

[Lodic]

You're assuming that cuz it HASN'T yet happened, that it WON'T. Again, lemme point out the founding of modern Israel against ALL human odds! Just ask any elderly Christian if a reborn Israel seemed possible in 1945! With the birth of that nation, a whole lotta pret hooey went "POOF!" in their faces!

As I recall, the Zionist Movement was largely behind Israel's return to Palestine. This started around the beginning of the 20th Century, as the Jews were forced to leave various countries in Europe. With the end of WWII, the deal was finally sealed. I really don't see it as all that remarkable. A map of the world today is quite different from a map of 50 years ago.

 

[Lodic]

Most Scripture is literal. As I said earlier, God has made it His absolutes.


Desolation involves destruction. "Made desolate" means "destroyed".



No, it means exactly what Jesus said. Joel spoke of it also.



Easy enough!

Daniel 9:26“And after the sixty-two weeksMessiah shall ]be cut off, but not for Himself;And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.The end of it shall be with a flood,And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

When I tell ya something is in Scripture, I'm not making it up. I study scripture a lot. I have eleven different English Bible translations, & I read'em all. Besides , it's a sin to lie, so when I say it's in Scripture, it's true.

As much "fun" as this is, you are beginning to wear me out. We keep going over the same thing. I feel like I'm the guy stuck in time in "Groundhog Day". On that note, I've got some things to wrap up, and I'm going to make it an early day. I hope to pick up the debate on the "Nero" thread on Monday. Here's wishing you and yours a great weekend.

 

[robycop3]

If the futurist claims actually could be proven, I'm sure you would have done so by now. You are still left with conjecture.

Even IF the Jews did build a new temple, that would not necessarily prove that was in fulfillment of prophecy. I do recall that the Jews did start to rebuild it around the 3rd or 4th Century, but an earthquake destroyed it before they got past the foundation.

I see that you've posted the "Nero" thread. I won't be able to read and comment on it before Monday around noon (in Texas).

Again, it's the principle of PROBABILITY. As I said, if I hurl a baseball at a glass window, the PROBABILITY is about certain, before the baseball reaches the window, that the ball's gonna break the window. Thus, as those parts of the Olivet Discourse that have cometa pass have done so literally, it's VERY PROBABLE that the rest will be fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY, especially since there's no sign they have otherwise been fulfilled!

 

[robycop3]

As I recall, the Zionist Movement was largely behind Israel's return to Palestine. This started around the beginning of the 20th Century, as the Jews were forced to leave various countries in Europe. With the end of WWII, the deal was finally sealed. I really don't see it as all that remarkable. A map of the world today is quite different from a map of 50 years ago.

Again, JUST ASK! Very few anticipated the founding of modern israel in 1945.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not sure if I'd go so far as to call it heresy. While this is a different eschatological view, I reserve the term "heresy" for things of "eternal significance" - e.g. the nature of Jesus, the Trinity, etc.

The Historical Christian Church viewpoint has been that since it denies the physical resurrection for the body, it is heresy...