We are saved in sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believe in Jesus, not by water baptism!
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Prevenient Grace - Catholic View
- Thread starter LaGrange
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Hi Yeshua1,
“Believing” is a Prevenient Grace.
Its the working of the Holy Spirit to His own in Christ!
Hi Yeshua1,
Rom 8:24 says you are saved by “Hope”. So, right there, proves you are not saved by Faith alone. Then, 1 Cor 13:2 says if I have “Faith” to move mountains and have not “Charity” I am nothing. Then in 1 Cor 13:13 it lists Faith, Hope and Charity and says the greatest is Charity.
Rom 8:24 says you are saved by “Hope”. So, right there, proves you are not saved by Faith alone. Then, 1 Cor 13:2 says if I have “Faith” to move mountains and have not “Charity” I am nothing. Then in 1 Cor 13:13 it lists Faith, Hope and Charity and says the greatest is Charity.
we are saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus, and Faith accesses that grace!
Hi Yeshua1,
What does Hope and Charity do?
Byproducts, fruit of being now saved!
Hi Yeshua1,
Ok. I know we disagree but what I’m interested in is detailed explanations that really break everything down. If we don’t do that all we really are doing is making assertions. For example, you could go back and read my first post and maybe you could tell me precisely where it is wrong but, when you do, show me theologically why it is wrong. Give some detail. I would really love it if you could quote Calvin, Luther, Berkhof with book, chapter and section so I can go read it. I do appreciate your interest.
Faith doesn't have Charity. It must be supplied.
2 Peter 1
5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
Faith is worthless until it has Love.
1 Corinthians 13
2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
Hi Utilyan,
We are in agreement! Absolutely! May God bless.
Continued
Supplement
St. Augustine
This is a continuation of Post #36
Hi Everyone,
Well, I was working on Cooperative Grace and was led to work on this instead. Hopefully soon the post on Cooperative Grace will be posted.
Correction: I made a mistake: Ken Wilson said St. Augustine retracted Free Will. It appears St. Augustine DID retract a Natural Free Will so Ken was right but St. Augustine did not retract the concept of Free Will regarding our salvation. St. Augustine begins to describe a Supernatural Free Will. The controversy seems to center around Rom 7:14.
Ken Wilson quoted St. Augustine saying “In the solution of this question I struggled in behalf of free choice of the will, but the grace of God won out”. (Retractations, To Simplician, 2.1) (this quote is about St. Augustine’s interpretation of Rom 7:14)
St. Augustine also referred to these places in this quote To Simplician (2.1) above which gives more detail:
On the Predestination of the Saints (Ch 4.7,4.8)
On the Gift of Perseverance (20.52)
While looking at this quote of St. Augustine again, I discovered some really interesting things regarding Supernatural Free Will (Our Will with God’s Grace in it). (I already Showed, in my original post, how St. Augustine interpreted the two spirits that came to Saul in 1 Sam 10:10 and 1 Sam 16:14) St. Augustine here is looking at Rom 7:7-25 in context then gives an example in Rom 9. I filled in Rom 8 based on what I think they were saying. Here’s my interpretation:
Big Picture
Context:
Rom 7 - Law and Grace inside same man
Rom 8 - by Grace you are inside Christ - to remain you must also be inside the Law
Rom 9 - Free Will - struggle inside family and inside the womb
My Comment: St. Augustine quoted Rom 7:14 to say he originally thought this was referring to a man not in the state of Grace but then later did think that he was. That’s what changed. It seems he thought later that St. Paul was describing himself who was a man in the state of Grace. As you read the Retractations further, he explains this. Aquinas says the Law is a grace and is in the Intellect (STh., I-II q.90; STh., I-II q.56 a.3) but concupiscence (tendency to sin) is in the flesh (STh., I-II q.56 a.4) (Rom 7:7-8). This all means that once we have grace in our soul to do good, at the same time, we have the inclination to sin in our flesh. St. Augustine sees in Rom 7:14 a man (ONE Soul) who has BOTH the potential to do good and the potential to do evil. This all points to Supernatural Free Will (man’s Will with Grace in it).
After this quote above in the Retractations (2.1), St. Augustine goes on to give examples of this Supernatural Free Will:
St Augustine and Romans 9
St. Augustine uses Rom 9:10-29 to support Free Will.
The idea is something like this:
Matrimony was the Law (Rom 7:2-3) and the Law was good (Rom 7:12). Aquinas says Matrimony confers Grace (STh., Supplementum q.42 a.3 ). When the seed (Grace) passed to those within the Law, they received an inheritance (Elected to Grace or Glory). When the seed was passed to those outside the Law, they received no inheritance (Elected to Grace). BOTH received the seed. Sarah was the wife (Matrimony - Law) of Abraham and gave birth to Isaac so Isaac received the inheritance. Hagar was NOT the wife [Concubine (Concupiscence) - outside of the Law] of Abraham and gave birth to Ishmael so Ishmael did NOT receive the inheritance. Ishmael mocked (Sin) Isaac and caused Hagar and Ishmael to be cast out (Lost Grace - Gen 21:10). This shows two things: Those who receive the seed and keep the law receive an inheritance. Those who receive the seed and do not keep the law do not receive an inheritance. This describes Supernatural Free Will (Our Will with God’s Grace in it) and the use of it. It looks like Hagar was simply doing what she was told to do, and she was, but there is a mystical meaning here that St. Augustine wants us to see: When we receive Grace (the seed), in order for it to grow and eventually receive the promise (inheritance - Glory), we must keep the Law (Commandments). This struggle between Isaac and Ishmael, or between Sarah and Hagar, signifies this Supernatural Free Will and the use of it in this struggle inside us (in our souls) to choose good or evil. The second example St. Paul uses is Isaac’s wife Rebecca, conceiving of Esau and Jacob. The seed was received within the Law but God chose Jacob over Esau. Aquinas says God did this to show that you are not saved by the Law alone (Old Covenant). This signifies the flesh. By the Law, the Jews believed you could be justified by the merits of their forefathers. Aquinas quotes Ezekiel 14:18 and Matt 3:9 (Aquinas’ Commentary on Romans). In these examples, there are struggles between Sarah and Hagar, Isaac and Ishmael and Esau and Jacob. St. Augustine is pointing out that these struggles are, in each case, either in the family or in the womb, therefore in the SAME ENTITY. This points to the fact that within each man and in his one soul (SAME ENTITY), there is a struggle between the spirit and the flesh (Rom 7:14). Aquinas says the “Carnal man” in Rom 7:14 is described in Gal 5:17 (Aquinas’ Commentary on Romans). We have the power to choose and must choose and this is the definition of Supernatural Free Will and it’s use. No wonder Aquinas interpreted “....endured with much patience” in Rom 9:22 as God “Permitting” man to harden his heart. Man sins with his Supernatural Free Will (our Will with God’s Grace in it) and God hardens his heart by God’s withdrawal of Grace (takes away the Grace in man’s soul when he was Elected to Grace).
Breakdown again with a little more detail
Context:
Rom 7 - Law and Grace inside same man
(Law warns against Concupiscence - flesh - Rom 7:7-8)
Rom 8 - by Grace you are inside Christ - to remain you must also be inside the Law***
Rom 9 - Free Will - struggle between the Law and Grace inside family and inside the womb! (Family and Womb = Soul)
***Rom 8 - by Grace you are inside Christ - Rom 8:1 is also saying you could still possibly walk in the flesh. Aquinas interprets this using 2 Cor 10:3. “Inside” each person is a warfare. This goes back to St. Augustine’s meaning of Rom 7:14. To be “Inside” Christ is to be “Inside” the Law.
The purpose of this post is to show the necessity of Supernatural Free Will. I’m not trying to cover and give an explanation of every detail about Love, Election and Predestination which is also in Rom 9.
Supplement
St. Augustine
This is a continuation of Post #36
Hi Everyone,
Well, I was working on Cooperative Grace and was led to work on this instead. Hopefully soon the post on Cooperative Grace will be posted.
Correction: I made a mistake: Ken Wilson said St. Augustine retracted Free Will. It appears St. Augustine DID retract a Natural Free Will so Ken was right but St. Augustine did not retract the concept of Free Will regarding our salvation. St. Augustine begins to describe a Supernatural Free Will. The controversy seems to center around Rom 7:14.
Ken Wilson quoted St. Augustine saying “In the solution of this question I struggled in behalf of free choice of the will, but the grace of God won out”. (Retractations, To Simplician, 2.1) (this quote is about St. Augustine’s interpretation of Rom 7:14)
St. Augustine also referred to these places in this quote To Simplician (2.1) above which gives more detail:
On the Predestination of the Saints (Ch 4.7,4.8)
On the Gift of Perseverance (20.52)
While looking at this quote of St. Augustine again, I discovered some really interesting things regarding Supernatural Free Will (Our Will with God’s Grace in it). (I already Showed, in my original post, how St. Augustine interpreted the two spirits that came to Saul in 1 Sam 10:10 and 1 Sam 16:14) St. Augustine here is looking at Rom 7:7-25 in context then gives an example in Rom 9. I filled in Rom 8 based on what I think they were saying. Here’s my interpretation:
Big Picture
Context:
Rom 7 - Law and Grace inside same man
Rom 8 - by Grace you are inside Christ - to remain you must also be inside the Law
Rom 9 - Free Will - struggle inside family and inside the womb
My Comment: St. Augustine quoted Rom 7:14 to say he originally thought this was referring to a man not in the state of Grace but then later did think that he was. That’s what changed. It seems he thought later that St. Paul was describing himself who was a man in the state of Grace. As you read the Retractations further, he explains this. Aquinas says the Law is a grace and is in the Intellect (STh., I-II q.90; STh., I-II q.56 a.3) but concupiscence (tendency to sin) is in the flesh (STh., I-II q.56 a.4) (Rom 7:7-8). This all means that once we have grace in our soul to do good, at the same time, we have the inclination to sin in our flesh. St. Augustine sees in Rom 7:14 a man (ONE Soul) who has BOTH the potential to do good and the potential to do evil. This all points to Supernatural Free Will (man’s Will with Grace in it).
After this quote above in the Retractations (2.1), St. Augustine goes on to give examples of this Supernatural Free Will:
St Augustine and Romans 9
St. Augustine uses Rom 9:10-29 to support Free Will.
The idea is something like this:
Matrimony was the Law (Rom 7:2-3) and the Law was good (Rom 7:12). Aquinas says Matrimony confers Grace (STh., Supplementum q.42 a.3 ). When the seed (Grace) passed to those within the Law, they received an inheritance (Elected to Grace or Glory). When the seed was passed to those outside the Law, they received no inheritance (Elected to Grace). BOTH received the seed. Sarah was the wife (Matrimony - Law) of Abraham and gave birth to Isaac so Isaac received the inheritance. Hagar was NOT the wife [Concubine (Concupiscence) - outside of the Law] of Abraham and gave birth to Ishmael so Ishmael did NOT receive the inheritance. Ishmael mocked (Sin) Isaac and caused Hagar and Ishmael to be cast out (Lost Grace - Gen 21:10). This shows two things: Those who receive the seed and keep the law receive an inheritance. Those who receive the seed and do not keep the law do not receive an inheritance. This describes Supernatural Free Will (Our Will with God’s Grace in it) and the use of it. It looks like Hagar was simply doing what she was told to do, and she was, but there is a mystical meaning here that St. Augustine wants us to see: When we receive Grace (the seed), in order for it to grow and eventually receive the promise (inheritance - Glory), we must keep the Law (Commandments). This struggle between Isaac and Ishmael, or between Sarah and Hagar, signifies this Supernatural Free Will and the use of it in this struggle inside us (in our souls) to choose good or evil. The second example St. Paul uses is Isaac’s wife Rebecca, conceiving of Esau and Jacob. The seed was received within the Law but God chose Jacob over Esau. Aquinas says God did this to show that you are not saved by the Law alone (Old Covenant). This signifies the flesh. By the Law, the Jews believed you could be justified by the merits of their forefathers. Aquinas quotes Ezekiel 14:18 and Matt 3:9 (Aquinas’ Commentary on Romans). In these examples, there are struggles between Sarah and Hagar, Isaac and Ishmael and Esau and Jacob. St. Augustine is pointing out that these struggles are, in each case, either in the family or in the womb, therefore in the SAME ENTITY. This points to the fact that within each man and in his one soul (SAME ENTITY), there is a struggle between the spirit and the flesh (Rom 7:14). Aquinas says the “Carnal man” in Rom 7:14 is described in Gal 5:17 (Aquinas’ Commentary on Romans). We have the power to choose and must choose and this is the definition of Supernatural Free Will and it’s use. No wonder Aquinas interpreted “....endured with much patience” in Rom 9:22 as God “Permitting” man to harden his heart. Man sins with his Supernatural Free Will (our Will with God’s Grace in it) and God hardens his heart by God’s withdrawal of Grace (takes away the Grace in man’s soul when he was Elected to Grace).
Breakdown again with a little more detail
Context:
Rom 7 - Law and Grace inside same man
(Law warns against Concupiscence - flesh - Rom 7:7-8)
Rom 8 - by Grace you are inside Christ - to remain you must also be inside the Law***
Rom 9 - Free Will - struggle between the Law and Grace inside family and inside the womb! (Family and Womb = Soul)
***Rom 8 - by Grace you are inside Christ - Rom 8:1 is also saying you could still possibly walk in the flesh. Aquinas interprets this using 2 Cor 10:3. “Inside” each person is a warfare. This goes back to St. Augustine’s meaning of Rom 7:14. To be “Inside” Christ is to be “Inside” the Law.
The purpose of this post is to show the necessity of Supernatural Free Will. I’m not trying to cover and give an explanation of every detail about Love, Election and Predestination which is also in Rom 9.
Hi Everyone,
Before discussing Cooperative Grace, I need to discuss a couple of things. Free Will, in general, is one of them I wanted to say something about. Cooperative Grace may take much longer than I thought but I have 3 posts to put on here for the time being. This is one of them.
Free Will - The Big Picture
Institutes 2,2,4-9
Calvin taught against a Supernatural Free Will (our Natural Free Will with God’s Grace in it)
If you read these sections from Calvin’s Institutes, it sounds logical at first. Just thinking in general, Calvin says all the Early Church Fathers (ECF’s) had different definitions of Free Will and they were all wrong so, to him, it was ok to throw out the idea of Free Will. He thought it wouldn’t work. Luther denied Free Will when discussing Erasmus’ 3 Definitions of Free Will (Bondage of the Will, p142ff, Vaughan’s Translation). It was basically for the same reason: there were different definitions. This is where the attitutude of Protestants and Catholics differ. We approach this problem differently. Catholics would look at this and say the ECF’s were struggling with the definition of Free Will and defining it wrong but, since they were ALL trying to define it, it must be important and it must be doctrinal. It wasn’t defined well until St. Augustine defined it. Actually St. Augustine described it correctly through all his writings before he defined it but it didn’t dawn on him how to define it correctly until near the end of his life (Retractations 2.1). He knew there had to be grace there somehow with Free Will. He wasn’t trying to throw out Free Will. If we went by Calvin’s thinking, we would have thrown out the Doctrines of the Hypostatic Union and the Trinity and probably many other doctrines. Many ECF’s defined these truths wrong too but they all knew they were doctrines. If these doctrines weren’t true until they were defined then there wasn’t a deposit of Faith (Jude 3) until after they were defined. This would mean that Christ’s Church failed, at least, until Calvin came along. For the first 300 years they couldn’t all assemble to discuss these things due to the persecutions. The problem the ECF’s had was trying to find the words to describe these truths and all the effects. Sometimes it was much later when they did. Sometimes doctrines weren’t defined well until there was a controversy surrounding them.
Before discussing Cooperative Grace, I need to discuss a couple of things. Free Will, in general, is one of them I wanted to say something about. Cooperative Grace may take much longer than I thought but I have 3 posts to put on here for the time being. This is one of them.
Free Will - The Big Picture
Institutes 2,2,4-9
Calvin taught against a Supernatural Free Will (our Natural Free Will with God’s Grace in it)
If you read these sections from Calvin’s Institutes, it sounds logical at first. Just thinking in general, Calvin says all the Early Church Fathers (ECF’s) had different definitions of Free Will and they were all wrong so, to him, it was ok to throw out the idea of Free Will. He thought it wouldn’t work. Luther denied Free Will when discussing Erasmus’ 3 Definitions of Free Will (Bondage of the Will, p142ff, Vaughan’s Translation). It was basically for the same reason: there were different definitions. This is where the attitutude of Protestants and Catholics differ. We approach this problem differently. Catholics would look at this and say the ECF’s were struggling with the definition of Free Will and defining it wrong but, since they were ALL trying to define it, it must be important and it must be doctrinal. It wasn’t defined well until St. Augustine defined it. Actually St. Augustine described it correctly through all his writings before he defined it but it didn’t dawn on him how to define it correctly until near the end of his life (Retractations 2.1). He knew there had to be grace there somehow with Free Will. He wasn’t trying to throw out Free Will. If we went by Calvin’s thinking, we would have thrown out the Doctrines of the Hypostatic Union and the Trinity and probably many other doctrines. Many ECF’s defined these truths wrong too but they all knew they were doctrines. If these doctrines weren’t true until they were defined then there wasn’t a deposit of Faith (Jude 3) until after they were defined. This would mean that Christ’s Church failed, at least, until Calvin came along. For the first 300 years they couldn’t all assemble to discuss these things due to the persecutions. The problem the ECF’s had was trying to find the words to describe these truths and all the effects. Sometimes it was much later when they did. Sometimes doctrines weren’t defined well until there was a controversy surrounding them.
37818
Well-Known Member
The first problem with "free" will is it is not explicitly defined in tbe written word of God.
Free will is man's will as opposed to God's will.
Part 2 Cooperative Grace - Nature and Grace
Nature and Grace
Aquinas said Grace perfects Nature (STh., I q.1 a.8).
God puts Grace in our souls, which creates a Contingency in our Intellect and Wills that wasn’t there, so as to have the potential to move toward the good of our salvation or to help us keep our salvation (Perseverance). Contingencies (Choices) are already a part of man’s nature and God simply builds on them (STh., I q.22 a.4). When we do the good (salutary act), the initial Grace to do the act, and the Grace resulting from our act, perfects us. Also, In God’s Providence, Aquinas looked at nature and realized that God permitted the deterioration or the imperfection of things (STh., I q.48 a.2). A tree comes into existence and goes out of existence. These imperfections are part of God’s Providence. There are other things that God created and keeps in existence, through His Providence, such as the sun, water , wind, gravity, etc. These things bear on other things in God’s Creation and make them live and grow and eventually permits them to deteriorate (Secondary Causes). Death is part of life. Aquinas saw in man that he had a nature and this nature included a Free Will which I call a Natural Free Will. It’s part of nature and we were born with it. This Natural Free Will (no grace in it) allows us to make every day choices. This Natural Free Will can deteriorate too. In the natural world we can make good choices and bad choices. It’s also true in the Supernatural world. Adam and Eve had a Supernatural Free Will. God gave them a “Choice” (Prevenient Grace) in the garden and He spoke to them (Prevenient Grace) yet they sinned (deteriorated; imperfections). This “Deterioration” is caused by “Secondary Causes”. God is the “Cause” which we call the “First Cause”. The Deterioration (the other things in God’s Providence) is the “Secondary Cause”(STh., I q.23 a.3; STh., I q.22 a.2). Both “Causes” are necessary. When the Secondary Cause is in agreement with the First Cause, the Salutary Act is done and the Grace is said to be Efficacious. When the Secondary Cause is NOT in agreement with the First Cause, the Salutary act is not done and the Grace is said to be Sufficient. The Grace is defined by its effect. It’s the same grace. Aquinas said there is a certain order of things (1 Cor 14:40; Wis 8:1) and this is true with First and Secondary Causes (STh., I q.103 a.7 & 8). To contrast this, sometimes in nature, God does something “Supernatural” like “Parting the Red Sea” or appearing in the “Burning Bush” (Miracles) but most of the time God Works through “Secondary Causes”. (Notice: God Operates through the Secondary Cause all the way to the completion of a salutary act) God gives a tree good soil, sunlight and water and allows all of these to work according to their nature (Secondary Causes). It’s the same with man. God gives us what we need (Grace) and we grow with it (Sanctity - Perfects Nature) or we deteriorate or die (Sin) with it.
Predilection
The other truth in nature Aquinas saw was that some trees were better than others. They weren’t all the same. Some have big leaves for shade and produce fruit and others don’t. All trees are given what they need to grow but some trees do better than others. It’s the same with man. God gives all men what they need to grow but He gives to some more than others. This is also true in the Supernatural order. Aquinas said God Loves some people more than others! This sounds uncharitable but it’s true. Another way of saying the same thing is that God gives more Grace to some than to others (Rom 9:15, 1 Cor 4:7). This is Aquinas’ Principle of Predilection: “God's love is the cause of all goodness, ie, it follows that one thing would not be better than another if God did not will a greater good for one than another” [Garrigou-LaGrange, Predestination, p36, (STh., I q.20 a.3)]. If you think about St. Paul or St. Augustine and then think about someone who doesn’t believe in God at all, you realize not all receive the same amount of Grace yet they ALL received Sufficient Grace. This may be hard to accept but it’s part of God’s Providence and Predestination. It is a mystery.
To recap, there are 2 things to remember:
(1) We have a Supernatural Free Will just like we have a Natural Free Will
(2) We all receive Grace but some receive more Grace than others.
Nature and Grace
Aquinas said Grace perfects Nature (STh., I q.1 a.8).
God puts Grace in our souls, which creates a Contingency in our Intellect and Wills that wasn’t there, so as to have the potential to move toward the good of our salvation or to help us keep our salvation (Perseverance). Contingencies (Choices) are already a part of man’s nature and God simply builds on them (STh., I q.22 a.4). When we do the good (salutary act), the initial Grace to do the act, and the Grace resulting from our act, perfects us. Also, In God’s Providence, Aquinas looked at nature and realized that God permitted the deterioration or the imperfection of things (STh., I q.48 a.2). A tree comes into existence and goes out of existence. These imperfections are part of God’s Providence. There are other things that God created and keeps in existence, through His Providence, such as the sun, water , wind, gravity, etc. These things bear on other things in God’s Creation and make them live and grow and eventually permits them to deteriorate (Secondary Causes). Death is part of life. Aquinas saw in man that he had a nature and this nature included a Free Will which I call a Natural Free Will. It’s part of nature and we were born with it. This Natural Free Will (no grace in it) allows us to make every day choices. This Natural Free Will can deteriorate too. In the natural world we can make good choices and bad choices. It’s also true in the Supernatural world. Adam and Eve had a Supernatural Free Will. God gave them a “Choice” (Prevenient Grace) in the garden and He spoke to them (Prevenient Grace) yet they sinned (deteriorated; imperfections). This “Deterioration” is caused by “Secondary Causes”. God is the “Cause” which we call the “First Cause”. The Deterioration (the other things in God’s Providence) is the “Secondary Cause”(STh., I q.23 a.3; STh., I q.22 a.2). Both “Causes” are necessary. When the Secondary Cause is in agreement with the First Cause, the Salutary Act is done and the Grace is said to be Efficacious. When the Secondary Cause is NOT in agreement with the First Cause, the Salutary act is not done and the Grace is said to be Sufficient. The Grace is defined by its effect. It’s the same grace. Aquinas said there is a certain order of things (1 Cor 14:40; Wis 8:1) and this is true with First and Secondary Causes (STh., I q.103 a.7 & 8). To contrast this, sometimes in nature, God does something “Supernatural” like “Parting the Red Sea” or appearing in the “Burning Bush” (Miracles) but most of the time God Works through “Secondary Causes”. (Notice: God Operates through the Secondary Cause all the way to the completion of a salutary act) God gives a tree good soil, sunlight and water and allows all of these to work according to their nature (Secondary Causes). It’s the same with man. God gives us what we need (Grace) and we grow with it (Sanctity - Perfects Nature) or we deteriorate or die (Sin) with it.
Predilection
The other truth in nature Aquinas saw was that some trees were better than others. They weren’t all the same. Some have big leaves for shade and produce fruit and others don’t. All trees are given what they need to grow but some trees do better than others. It’s the same with man. God gives all men what they need to grow but He gives to some more than others. This is also true in the Supernatural order. Aquinas said God Loves some people more than others! This sounds uncharitable but it’s true. Another way of saying the same thing is that God gives more Grace to some than to others (Rom 9:15, 1 Cor 4:7). This is Aquinas’ Principle of Predilection: “God's love is the cause of all goodness, ie, it follows that one thing would not be better than another if God did not will a greater good for one than another” [Garrigou-LaGrange, Predestination, p36, (STh., I q.20 a.3)]. If you think about St. Paul or St. Augustine and then think about someone who doesn’t believe in God at all, you realize not all receive the same amount of Grace yet they ALL received Sufficient Grace. This may be hard to accept but it’s part of God’s Providence and Predestination. It is a mystery.
To recap, there are 2 things to remember:
(1) We have a Supernatural Free Will just like we have a Natural Free Will
(2) We all receive Grace but some receive more Grace than others.
Hi Everyone,
This is my last one for now. I would like to do the one on Cooperative Grace but it is going to be awhile. All my posts are building up to that but I need to figure out how to present it and I need to do much more study first. I would think it may take 3 months or so but I will be back.
Predestination
Definition of Predestination:
“This is the predestination of the saints,—nothing else; to wit, the foreknowledge and the preparation of God’s kindnesses, whereby they are most certainly delivered, whoever they are that are delivered.” (St. Augustine, On the Gift of Perseverance 14.35)(Aquinas, STh., I q.23 a.2, a.6)
Notice: Predestination consists of both Foreknowledge and Preparation of kindnesses (Graces). Notice too: Predestination DOES NOT include those damned to hell according to St. Augustine. NO DOUBLE PREDESTINATION..
Foreknowledge and Contingency
In order to discuss Cooperative Grace I first need to explain Foreknowledge. I have to prove Contingency is a part of Foreknowledge. Calvin taught that Contingency was NOT a part of Foreknowledge. Below are propositions Calvinists will recognize and agree with:
Calvinist Proposition:
If God Knows something is going to happen then He Caused (Wills) it to happen (Inst 3,21,5; 3,23,7)
This means that since God Knows who is going to heaven and to hell, God caused them to go to heaven or to hell.
Calvinist Propositions:
God Knows who is going to heaven so God Caused them to go to heaven
God Knows who is going to hell so God Caused them to go to hell
This is Double Predestination. (Inst 3,21,5; 3,23,7)
Catholic Proposition:
If God Knows something is going to happen then He Caused (Wills) it to happen
We agree with Calvinism so far. Here’s where we differ: We would add that God does not Desire evil but permits it. God is not unjust (Ps 10:8 DRV; Ps 11:7 KJV) (STh., I q.21 a.1). Man sins. God then Causes (Reprobates) him to go to hell.
Catholic Propositions:
God Knows who is going to heaven so God Caused them to go to heaven
God knows who is going to hell so God Caused them to go to hell
God knows who is going to hell and Permits them to choose to go to hell
God (Causes, Wills) Permits man to choose to sin and then Reprobates (Causes, Wills) him to hell
Here’s the Logic:
We are in agreement on those who are going to heaven. We believe in the Predestination of the Elect, either to Grace or to Glory. We say it that way because, even with the Elect, we must Persevere. You must go through the process not knowing absolutely that you are one of the Elect (Glory). God knows but you don’t know. You can be very Confident but you still have Free Will. After being Elected to Grace (Baptism), you can fall from grace. We could end up being Elected to Grace but not to Glory. God judges at the end of our life (Heb 9:27) and not before like the Calvinists believe and not in the middle (after your initial justification) like the Antinomians (OSAS) believe. Where we really differ has to do with those going to hell. As St. Augustine’s Definition shows, we do not believe in the Predestination of the Damned. Notice: We agree that, for those going to hell, God Caused them to go to hell. How can that be? God Caused them to go to hell in the sense that He “Permits” them to sin and then “Reprobates” (Judges-Causes) them to hell (God’s “Permissive Will”)(STh., I q.23 a.3)(Mal 1:2-3). To further explain this, God is the FIRST CAUSE, however, there are SECONDARY CAUSES. When we receive God’s Grace, we have two seeds, at the same time, in our souls: The seed of Adam (Concupiscence), which was already there from birth, and the seed of the “New Adam”, Jesus Christ (Grace) that we receive initially through the Grace from the Gift of Faith. This seed of Faith is alive, and then, ultimately, brought to birth (sustainable life) through Baptism (Where the seed is watered). Our souls are made up of Intellect and Will. BOTH seeds effect our Intellect and Will. In this struggle between these two seeds, we have the power to choose and to act. If we choose the good, ultimately, we receive Glory (Heaven) . If we choose to sin, ultimately, we receive Reprobation (Hell). God Causes (Wills) us to be damned to hell (Reprobation) AFTER we sin. Our choice to sin is the SECONDARY CAUSE and then God Reprobates us to hell. Look at the last proposition:
God (Causes, Wills) Permits man to choose to sin and then Reprobates (Causes, Wills) him to hell
Notice: There are two Causes: The First Cause and the Secondary Cause.
First Cause: God Causes (Permits) man to sin
Secondary Cause: God Causes (Reprobates) man to be go to hell
In a more general way:
First Cause: God Wills ALL men to be saved
Secondary Cause: God Wills (Permits) some not to be saved
Notice: With the Seed of Jesus Christ (Grace), we have the “Power” to choose the good. With the “Power” then to “Choose” good or evil, we are either rewarded or punished. This “Choice” we make is what we call a “Contingency”. God “knows” all of these choices we are going to make in the future (Ps 32:15 DRV ; Ps 33:15 KJV) (STh., I q.14 a.13 s.c). These “Choices” are “Contingencies”, therefore, God’s Foreknowledge includes “Contingencies”
These contingencies are part of our every day struggle in persevering in the hope of eternal life.
(Operative Grace - God also Predetermines us in making the choice and it also includes operating through the point of the termination of the salutary act. I will explain this later when discussing Cooperative Grace.God has Free Will too.)
“By Predestination God foreknew those things He Himself would do; but He Foreknew also those things which He will not do, that is, all evil things. He predestined those whom He chose, but the rest He rejected as reprobates, that is, He foreknew they would sin and be condemned to eternal death.” (Lombard, Sent, 40,1).
This is Lombard’s definition of Foreknowledge and is in agreement with St. Augustine according to Fr Garrigou-LaGrange (Garrigou-LaGrange, Predestination, p61).
Foreknowledge does not mean God Causes us to sin:
Augustine, City of God 5.10.2
St. Augustine: “It is not the case, therefore, that because God foreknew what would be in the power of our wills, there is for that reason nothing in the power of our wills.....Wherefore, be it far from us, in order to maintain our freedom, to deny the prescience of Him by whose help we are or shall be free. Consequently, it is not in vain that laws are enacted, and that reproaches, exhortations, praises, and vituperations are had recourse to; for these also He foreknew, and they are of great avail, even as great as He foreknew that they would be of. Prayers, also, are of avail to procure those things which He foreknew that He would grant to those who offered them; and with justice have rewards been appointed for good deeds, and punishments for sins. For a man does not therefore sin because God foreknew that he would sin.”
Example from Scripture
God knowing what He would do and not do in advance means that Foreknowledge includes Contingencies. This doesn’t mean God changes His mind but, rather, God’s Will can be determinate to more than one choice. It does not impose Necessity (one choice - Force)(STh., I q.23 a.6). Foreknowledge is what God is going to do (God Wills to do). He has Free Will. For example, Jonah said to the Ninivites, “...Yet forty days and Ninive shall be destroyed (Jon 3:4). Then God is said to have repented or changed His mind (Jon 3:10). Aquinas said “God is said to repent, metaphorically, inasmuch as He bears Himself after the manner of one who repents, by changing His sentence, although He changes not His counsel.” (STh., II-II q.171 a.6; STh., I q.19 a.7 )
Here’s what Aquinas means:
Proposition 1: If man does not turn from his evil ways God Will destroy the city (this cannot be changed)
Proposition 2: If man does turn away from his evil ways God Will NOT destroy the city (this cannot be changed)
Notice: BOTH of these propositions SEPARATELY and INDEPENDENTLY are GOD’S Will and CANNOT be changed. God does not change His Counsel (God’s Will) but God changes his “Sentence” (punishment or reward). This logically proves God’s Will does not change yet His rewards or punishments do change (Contingencies) which were also in God’s Foreknowledge. Therefore, Contingencies are in God’s Foreknowledge.
(Ninivites in Jonah repented and spared the city but in Nahum, the Ninivites did not repent and the city was destroyed. God’s Will did not change.)
Preparation of Graces
I’ve discussed these “Preparatory Graces” in my previous posts but what I want you to notice now is this: These graces are in St. Augustine’s Definition of Predestination. Also notice: They are in God’s Foreknowledge.
Preparation of Graces in relation to Foreknowledge
Fr Garrigou-LaGrange also says “In the order of intention God wills the end before the means; that is why He wills to save the good thief to whom He grants the grace of final perserverance.But in the order of execution He gives eternal life as the reward of meritorious
acts.” (Predestination, p39)
Fr Garrigou-LaGrange also quotes St. Thomas: “Now God wills some things to be done necessarily, some contingently, to the right ordering of things, for the building up of the universe. Therefore to some effects He has attached necessary causes, that cannot fail; but to others defectible and contingent causes, from which arise contingent effects.”(STh., I q.19 a.8)
What all of these quotes mean is that regarding Predestination, Foreknowledge means: God sees the end first (Intention) which precedes His means (Execution) to that end. We see it in reverse order: We see the means (execution) first and then the completion (Intention).
Propositions:
God Wills the end before the means
God Wills the means to attain the end
This is my last one for now. I would like to do the one on Cooperative Grace but it is going to be awhile. All my posts are building up to that but I need to figure out how to present it and I need to do much more study first. I would think it may take 3 months or so but I will be back.
Predestination
Definition of Predestination:
“This is the predestination of the saints,—nothing else; to wit, the foreknowledge and the preparation of God’s kindnesses, whereby they are most certainly delivered, whoever they are that are delivered.” (St. Augustine, On the Gift of Perseverance 14.35)(Aquinas, STh., I q.23 a.2, a.6)
Notice: Predestination consists of both Foreknowledge and Preparation of kindnesses (Graces). Notice too: Predestination DOES NOT include those damned to hell according to St. Augustine. NO DOUBLE PREDESTINATION..
Foreknowledge and Contingency
In order to discuss Cooperative Grace I first need to explain Foreknowledge. I have to prove Contingency is a part of Foreknowledge. Calvin taught that Contingency was NOT a part of Foreknowledge. Below are propositions Calvinists will recognize and agree with:
Calvinist Proposition:
If God Knows something is going to happen then He Caused (Wills) it to happen (Inst 3,21,5; 3,23,7)
This means that since God Knows who is going to heaven and to hell, God caused them to go to heaven or to hell.
Calvinist Propositions:
God Knows who is going to heaven so God Caused them to go to heaven
God Knows who is going to hell so God Caused them to go to hell
This is Double Predestination. (Inst 3,21,5; 3,23,7)
Catholic Proposition:
If God Knows something is going to happen then He Caused (Wills) it to happen
We agree with Calvinism so far. Here’s where we differ: We would add that God does not Desire evil but permits it. God is not unjust (Ps 10:8 DRV; Ps 11:7 KJV) (STh., I q.21 a.1). Man sins. God then Causes (Reprobates) him to go to hell.
Catholic Propositions:
God Knows who is going to heaven so God Caused them to go to heaven
God knows who is going to hell so God Caused them to go to hell
God knows who is going to hell and Permits them to choose to go to hell
God (Causes, Wills) Permits man to choose to sin and then Reprobates (Causes, Wills) him to hell
Here’s the Logic:
We are in agreement on those who are going to heaven. We believe in the Predestination of the Elect, either to Grace or to Glory. We say it that way because, even with the Elect, we must Persevere. You must go through the process not knowing absolutely that you are one of the Elect (Glory). God knows but you don’t know. You can be very Confident but you still have Free Will. After being Elected to Grace (Baptism), you can fall from grace. We could end up being Elected to Grace but not to Glory. God judges at the end of our life (Heb 9:27) and not before like the Calvinists believe and not in the middle (after your initial justification) like the Antinomians (OSAS) believe. Where we really differ has to do with those going to hell. As St. Augustine’s Definition shows, we do not believe in the Predestination of the Damned. Notice: We agree that, for those going to hell, God Caused them to go to hell. How can that be? God Caused them to go to hell in the sense that He “Permits” them to sin and then “Reprobates” (Judges-Causes) them to hell (God’s “Permissive Will”)(STh., I q.23 a.3)(Mal 1:2-3). To further explain this, God is the FIRST CAUSE, however, there are SECONDARY CAUSES. When we receive God’s Grace, we have two seeds, at the same time, in our souls: The seed of Adam (Concupiscence), which was already there from birth, and the seed of the “New Adam”, Jesus Christ (Grace) that we receive initially through the Grace from the Gift of Faith. This seed of Faith is alive, and then, ultimately, brought to birth (sustainable life) through Baptism (Where the seed is watered). Our souls are made up of Intellect and Will. BOTH seeds effect our Intellect and Will. In this struggle between these two seeds, we have the power to choose and to act. If we choose the good, ultimately, we receive Glory (Heaven) . If we choose to sin, ultimately, we receive Reprobation (Hell). God Causes (Wills) us to be damned to hell (Reprobation) AFTER we sin. Our choice to sin is the SECONDARY CAUSE and then God Reprobates us to hell. Look at the last proposition:
God (Causes, Wills) Permits man to choose to sin and then Reprobates (Causes, Wills) him to hell
Notice: There are two Causes: The First Cause and the Secondary Cause.
First Cause: God Causes (Permits) man to sin
Secondary Cause: God Causes (Reprobates) man to be go to hell
In a more general way:
First Cause: God Wills ALL men to be saved
Secondary Cause: God Wills (Permits) some not to be saved
Notice: With the Seed of Jesus Christ (Grace), we have the “Power” to choose the good. With the “Power” then to “Choose” good or evil, we are either rewarded or punished. This “Choice” we make is what we call a “Contingency”. God “knows” all of these choices we are going to make in the future (Ps 32:15 DRV ; Ps 33:15 KJV) (STh., I q.14 a.13 s.c). These “Choices” are “Contingencies”, therefore, God’s Foreknowledge includes “Contingencies”
These contingencies are part of our every day struggle in persevering in the hope of eternal life.
(Operative Grace - God also Predetermines us in making the choice and it also includes operating through the point of the termination of the salutary act. I will explain this later when discussing Cooperative Grace.God has Free Will too.)
“By Predestination God foreknew those things He Himself would do; but He Foreknew also those things which He will not do, that is, all evil things. He predestined those whom He chose, but the rest He rejected as reprobates, that is, He foreknew they would sin and be condemned to eternal death.” (Lombard, Sent, 40,1).
This is Lombard’s definition of Foreknowledge and is in agreement with St. Augustine according to Fr Garrigou-LaGrange (Garrigou-LaGrange, Predestination, p61).
Foreknowledge does not mean God Causes us to sin:
Augustine, City of God 5.10.2
St. Augustine: “It is not the case, therefore, that because God foreknew what would be in the power of our wills, there is for that reason nothing in the power of our wills.....Wherefore, be it far from us, in order to maintain our freedom, to deny the prescience of Him by whose help we are or shall be free. Consequently, it is not in vain that laws are enacted, and that reproaches, exhortations, praises, and vituperations are had recourse to; for these also He foreknew, and they are of great avail, even as great as He foreknew that they would be of. Prayers, also, are of avail to procure those things which He foreknew that He would grant to those who offered them; and with justice have rewards been appointed for good deeds, and punishments for sins. For a man does not therefore sin because God foreknew that he would sin.”
Example from Scripture
God knowing what He would do and not do in advance means that Foreknowledge includes Contingencies. This doesn’t mean God changes His mind but, rather, God’s Will can be determinate to more than one choice. It does not impose Necessity (one choice - Force)(STh., I q.23 a.6). Foreknowledge is what God is going to do (God Wills to do). He has Free Will. For example, Jonah said to the Ninivites, “...Yet forty days and Ninive shall be destroyed (Jon 3:4). Then God is said to have repented or changed His mind (Jon 3:10). Aquinas said “God is said to repent, metaphorically, inasmuch as He bears Himself after the manner of one who repents, by changing His sentence, although He changes not His counsel.” (STh., II-II q.171 a.6; STh., I q.19 a.7 )
Here’s what Aquinas means:
Proposition 1: If man does not turn from his evil ways God Will destroy the city (this cannot be changed)
Proposition 2: If man does turn away from his evil ways God Will NOT destroy the city (this cannot be changed)
Notice: BOTH of these propositions SEPARATELY and INDEPENDENTLY are GOD’S Will and CANNOT be changed. God does not change His Counsel (God’s Will) but God changes his “Sentence” (punishment or reward). This logically proves God’s Will does not change yet His rewards or punishments do change (Contingencies) which were also in God’s Foreknowledge. Therefore, Contingencies are in God’s Foreknowledge.
(Ninivites in Jonah repented and spared the city but in Nahum, the Ninivites did not repent and the city was destroyed. God’s Will did not change.)
Preparation of Graces
I’ve discussed these “Preparatory Graces” in my previous posts but what I want you to notice now is this: These graces are in St. Augustine’s Definition of Predestination. Also notice: They are in God’s Foreknowledge.
Preparation of Graces in relation to Foreknowledge
Fr Garrigou-LaGrange also says “In the order of intention God wills the end before the means; that is why He wills to save the good thief to whom He grants the grace of final perserverance.But in the order of execution He gives eternal life as the reward of meritorious
acts.” (Predestination, p39)
Fr Garrigou-LaGrange also quotes St. Thomas: “Now God wills some things to be done necessarily, some contingently, to the right ordering of things, for the building up of the universe. Therefore to some effects He has attached necessary causes, that cannot fail; but to others defectible and contingent causes, from which arise contingent effects.”(STh., I q.19 a.8)
What all of these quotes mean is that regarding Predestination, Foreknowledge means: God sees the end first (Intention) which precedes His means (Execution) to that end. We see it in reverse order: We see the means (execution) first and then the completion (Intention).
Propositions:
God Wills the end before the means
God Wills the means to attain the end
Very possible. God can do anything he wants outside of any law or rule.
There is a strange Calvinist upbringing that gives religions magical holy words. Like FAITH, PRAYER, CHOSEN and ELECT are somehow magical HOLY words.
Sacrament is not a holy word. It means GIFT FROM GOD. So when you tell us AS WE UNDERSTAND , NO SACRAMENTAL GRACE, Its only absurd because its like saying can anyone go to heaven without any gift of God.
If we can pull Calvinists away from TRIGGER holy words These debates would be over.
If someone was never water baptized, will they go right to heaven if trust in the Lord jesus?
I'm going to assume its a Loving TRUST.
Very possible. Its even possible if they don't trust. They can be 100% wicked. God makes the final call in whatever way he sees fit.
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