Prevenient Grace

[JDale]

First, Your contention of Rom 9 being about salvation is a vain one, and your use the Jacob and Esau is very redundant in your misinformation.

Seed is the key word and it refers to 'a people from a person'.
As in - "in Isaac shall thy (Abrahams) seed (people) be called". And we know that Isaac's son Jacob (of whom God changed his name to Israel) is the father of the seed (people) of Abraham and Isaac, of whom it is also called "and of Jacob".
See in Gen that there are two Nations that God sees in Abrahams two sons (Ishmael, and Isaac)

And low and behold we see the SAME thing with Rebekah. God speaks concerning two NATIONS.
You may being dieing to ask: And where does scripture say that Allan? Hmmmm...

Do you see these two babies in the eyes of God reprenting two Nations, two manner of people. Paul is utilizing this to show his point concerning God's soveriegnty according to his purpose NOT Salvation. Look at the scriptures again:

Did you happen to see the Direct Quote Paul pulls from. It concerns TWO NATIONS and only Nations NOT the individuals. Thoug both Nations deserve to be justly punished God is merciful to one according that the purpose of election will stand.

If it does refer to them as individuals, then Please show me scripture WHERE it states that Esau was EVER a servant of Jacob. THis is KEY to what Paul is speaking of here since he uses the prophesy to illistrate his point - Election to and of Purpose. This is why it references BEFORE either had done Good or Evil... it isn't about who is the best, more religious, or more desirous and so the scripture speaks truly when it states:

So now that we see this verse we can note that is refers to God deciding who he will use for what purpose because of His own decision and not on the account or ability of any man. This verse is not and does not speak to salvation, but in fact it speaks to the issue that God can use whomever He wishes to fulfill His purpose.

Therefore, the passage of "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" is not a reference speaking of them indiviually to and of salvation, but to the poeples God had chosen or elected to fulfill His purpose regarding the bringing forth of a People unto Himself, to give them He testimonies and Law, and through whom the Saviour would come, and to the people whom God passed over which had all natural and earthly rights to have that honor (Esau being the first born). God chooses whom He will use and who He will not.

Is God unrighteous for purposing Jacob to be the people of God and the lineage of Christ, and Esau was not. No, because both were the same before the Lord and God chose Jacob as the purveyor of His purpose. Again Not speaking of salvation but the Purposes of God and through whom He would use. God spoke to Moses concerning this same thing regarding use for a purpose - NOT salvation. Moses was the representive of Gods people just as pharaoh is/was. And though God spoke to both it was regarding the whole of their people.

Pharaoh here is spoken to, so maybe this is where it God deals with individuals. Nope again. Though God did speak this to Pharaoh look back at what was fully said:


Pharaoh is the head the very voice of his people, Egypt. The plague that God sent was against pharaoh AND his people. He represented all of Egypt. So we see that though God spoke to Pharaoh of judgment God's judgment was actually upon all of Egypt through him as the head of a people. Though it was to the one it was dispursed upon them all. God raised up or allowed to be Pharaoh but there would be no Pharaoh without the people which make up Egypt whom He also raised up or allowed to be. Notice it says "for to show in THEE my power..." Now it is interesting that God showed His power in Egypt who was ruled by Pharaoh. God did nothing IN Pharaoh which showed forth His power to the Nations but He did show forth His power in Egypt and the surrounding nations trembled at what God did IN Egypt! They were raised up or allowed to be born (even knowing their rebeliousness) for Gods purpose to show forth the Glory of the Lord to the World. And Gods purpose was fulfilled! It is about purpose not salvation. The very next verse shows this same thing when read in context.

Can you not see this is speaking of God working among men to the fulfilling of His purpose. You must bring to the text the presupposition it is speaking of salvation here. It have have implications towards that effect but the scriptures do not speak (here at least) of salvation but election for the purpose of God (Making a people and preparing the way for His Christ).


It is about election to purpose NOT salvation.



PS - Paul was not saved by his unbelief. Paul was saved because he believed.
He did ungodly things being IN ignorance and UNBELIEF.
Paul was considered 'faithful' and appointed to His service.

Good stuff Allan!

JDale

 

[webdog]

What jdale said ^ :thumbs:
It's so refreshing to see Scripture exegesis the way the Bible meant.

 

[Rippon]

Hey JADALE and Webdog ! Way to to go ! You all really know how to turn Scripture on its head !

 

[reformedbeliever]

First, Your contention of Rom 9 being about salvation is a vain one, and your use the Jacob and Esau is very redundant in your misinformation.

Seed is the key word and it refers to 'a people from a person'.
As in - "in Isaac shall thy (Abrahams) seed (people) be called". And we know that Isaac's son Jacob (of whom God changed his name to Israel) is the father of the seed (people) of Abraham and Isaac, of whom it is also called "and of Jacob".
See in Gen that there are two Nations that God sees in Abrahams two sons (Ishmael, and Isaac)

And low and behold we see the SAME thing with Rebekah. God speaks concerning two NATIONS.
You may being dieing to ask: And where does scripture say that Allan? Hmmmm...

Do you see these two babies in the eyes of God reprenting two Nations, two manner of people. Paul is utilizing this to show his point concerning God's soveriegnty according to his purpose NOT Salvation. Look at the scriptures again:

Did you happen to see the Direct Quote Paul pulls from. It concerns TWO NATIONS and only Nations NOT the individuals. Thoug both Nations deserve to be justly punished God is merciful to one according that the purpose of election will stand.

If it does refer to them as individuals, then Please show me scripture WHERE it states that Esau was EVER a servant of Jacob. THis is KEY to what Paul is speaking of here since he uses the prophesy to illistrate his point - Election to and of Purpose. This is why it references BEFORE either had done Good or Evil... it isn't about who is the best, more religious, or more desirous and so the scripture speaks truly when it states:

So now that we see this verse we can note that is refers to God deciding who he will use for what purpose because of His own decision and not on the account or ability of any man. This verse is not and does not speak to salvation, but in fact it speaks to the issue that God can use whomever He wishes to fulfill His purpose.

Therefore, the passage of "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" is not a reference speaking of them indiviually to and of salvation, but to the poeples God had chosen or elected to fulfill His purpose regarding the bringing forth of a People unto Himself, to give them He testimonies and Law, and through whom the Saviour would come, and to the people whom God passed over which had all natural and earthly rights to have that honor (Esau being the first born). God chooses whom He will use and who He will not.

Is God unrighteous for purposing Jacob to be the people of God and the lineage of Christ, and Esau was not. No, because both were the same before the Lord and God chose Jacob as the purveyor of His purpose. Again Not speaking of salvation but the Purposes of God and through whom He would use. God spoke to Moses concerning this same thing regarding use for a purpose - NOT salvation. Moses was the representive of Gods people just as pharaoh is/was. And though God spoke to both it was regarding the whole of their people.

Pharaoh here is spoken to, so maybe this is where it God deals with individuals. Nope again. Though God did speak this to Pharaoh look back at what was fully said:


Pharaoh is the head the very voice of his people, Egypt. The plague that God sent was against pharaoh AND his people. He represented all of Egypt. So we see that though God spoke to Pharaoh of judgment God's judgment was actually upon all of Egypt through him as the head of a people. Though it was to the one it was dispursed upon them all. God raised up or allowed to be Pharaoh but there would be no Pharaoh without the people which make up Egypt whom He also raised up or allowed to be. Notice it says "for to show in THEE my power..." Now it is interesting that God showed His power in Egypt who was ruled by Pharaoh. God did nothing IN Pharaoh which showed forth His power to the Nations but He did show forth His power in Egypt and the surrounding nations trembled at what God did IN Egypt! They were raised up or allowed to be born (even knowing their rebeliousness) for Gods purpose to show forth the Glory of the Lord to the World. And Gods purpose was fulfilled! It is about purpose not salvation. The very next verse shows this same thing when read in context.

Can you not see this is speaking of God working among men to the fulfilling of His purpose. You must bring to the text the presupposition it is speaking of salvation here. It have have implications towards that effect but the scriptures do not speak (here at least) of salvation but election for the purpose of God (Making a people and preparing the way for His Christ).


It is about election to purpose NOT salvation.



PS - Paul was not saved by his unbelief. Paul was saved because he believed.
He did ungodly things being IN ignorance and UNBELIEF.
Paul was considered 'faithful' and appointed to His service.

I'm listening Allan. Now what is the purpose if it is not salvation?

Also, is corporate dealing with only the group as a whole or is individuals also being recognized here? I don't think you will try to say that the corporate deals only with the group and not individuals will you? Thanks brother. I'm interested. I've heard this argument before, but maybe you can explain it better for me. I don't see how we can leave out individuals within the group. Also, I don't see how you can say that God's purposes is not salvation. We will see. Don't think I am not going to bring the other side of this argument into the equation.

 

[reformedbeliever]

First, Your contention of Rom 9 being about salvation is a vain one, and your use the Jacob and Esau is very redundant in your misinformation.

Seed is the key word and it refers to 'a people from a person'.
As in - "in Isaac shall thy (Abrahams) seed (people) be called". And we know that Isaac's son Jacob (of whom God changed his name to Israel) is the father of the seed (people) of Abraham and Isaac, of whom it is also called "and of Jacob".
See in Gen that there are two Nations that God sees in Abrahams two sons (Ishmael, and Isaac)

And low and behold we see the SAME thing with Rebekah. God speaks concerning two NATIONS.
You may being dieing to ask: And where does scripture say that Allan? Hmmmm...

Do you see these two babies in the eyes of God reprenting two Nations, two manner of people. Paul is utilizing this to show his point concerning God's soveriegnty according to his purpose NOT Salvation. Look at the scriptures again:

Did you happen to see the Direct Quote Paul pulls from. It concerns TWO NATIONS and only Nations NOT the individuals. Thoug both Nations deserve to be justly punished God is merciful to one according that the purpose of election will stand.

If it does refer to them as individuals, then Please show me scripture WHERE it states that Esau was EVER a servant of Jacob. THis is KEY to what Paul is speaking of here since he uses the prophesy to illistrate his point - Election to and of Purpose. This is why it references BEFORE either had done Good or Evil... it isn't about who is the best, more religious, or more desirous and so the scripture speaks truly when it states:

So now that we see this verse we can note that is refers to God deciding who he will use for what purpose because of His own decision and not on the account or ability of any man. This verse is not and does not speak to salvation, but in fact it speaks to the issue that God can use whomever He wishes to fulfill His purpose.

Therefore, the passage of "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" is not a reference speaking of them indiviually to and of salvation, but to the poeples God had chosen or elected to fulfill His purpose regarding the bringing forth of a People unto Himself, to give them He testimonies and Law, and through whom the Saviour would come, and to the people whom God passed over which had all natural and earthly rights to have that honor (Esau being the first born). God chooses whom He will use and who He will not.

Is God unrighteous for purposing Jacob to be the people of God and the lineage of Christ, and Esau was not. No, because both were the same before the Lord and God chose Jacob as the purveyor of His purpose. Again Not speaking of salvation but the Purposes of God and through whom He would use. God spoke to Moses concerning this same thing regarding use for a purpose - NOT salvation. Moses was the representive of Gods people just as pharaoh is/was. And though God spoke to both it was regarding the whole of their people.

Pharaoh here is spoken to, so maybe this is where it God deals with individuals. Nope again. Though God did speak this to Pharaoh look back at what was fully said:


Pharaoh is the head the very voice of his people, Egypt. The plague that God sent was against pharaoh AND his people. He represented all of Egypt. So we see that though God spoke to Pharaoh of judgment God's judgment was actually upon all of Egypt through him as the head of a people. Though it was to the one it was dispursed upon them all. God raised up or allowed to be Pharaoh but there would be no Pharaoh without the people which make up Egypt whom He also raised up or allowed to be. Notice it says "for to show in THEE my power..." Now it is interesting that God showed His power in Egypt who was ruled by Pharaoh. God did nothing IN Pharaoh which showed forth His power to the Nations but He did show forth His power in Egypt and the surrounding nations trembled at what God did IN Egypt! They were raised up or allowed to be born (even knowing their rebeliousness) for Gods purpose to show forth the Glory of the Lord to the World. And Gods purpose was fulfilled! It is about purpose not salvation. The very next verse shows this same thing when read in context.

Can you not see this is speaking of God working among men to the fulfilling of His purpose. You must bring to the text the presupposition it is speaking of salvation here. It have have implications towards that effect but the scriptures do not speak (here at least) of salvation but election for the purpose of God (Making a people and preparing the way for His Christ).


It is about election to purpose NOT salvation.



PS - Paul was not saved by his unbelief. Paul was saved because he believed.
He did ungodly things being IN ignorance and UNBELIEF.
Paul was considered 'faithful' and appointed to His service.

24. {even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
25. As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.' "
26. "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
27. Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
28. FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."
29. And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."
30. What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31. but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law.
32. Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33. just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Is this calling a national calling? Is it not to salvation? Isn't righteousness being made right with God? Is it not a legal act by God?

You have not convinced me Allan. Good try though.

 

[skypair]

I have some agreements with you -- and some disagreements:

(1) Belief and faith are differentiated in Scripture -- but our belief BECOMES faith when we place it in the proper object -- or PERSON -- of Jesus Christ. This, of course, is made possible by the enabling of the Holy SPirit through Prevenient Grace.

Agreed.

(2) No one can "learn" their way into being a Christian. A relationship must be established first -- through the New Birth. Now, that doesn't mean one has a "Damascus Road" experience with thunder and a blinding light, but faith and repentance must come before we can "learn" and "grow in grace."

Exactly. We can't just assume that because we appear to understand the scriptures that God has "elected" us, right?

(3) Faith may be understood as a "gift of God" -- an ability given to all men -- since the creation (Hebrews 11!) However, the "gift of faith" described in I Corinthians 12:7-11 was/is given explicitly to those who have been indwelt by the Holy SPirit in the Church Age. This is a supernatural enduement of faith for extraordinary purposes in God's plan. This "gift" does not and can not = "faith" because, as you pointed out earlier, OT Saints were not indwelt by the HS during the Dispensations in which they lived.

Well, I believe the OT saints had faith, don't you (Heb 11)? It was given to them which believed, right? IOW, I don't think the pattern for justification has changed -- I believe the process of sanctification has changed, don't you?

I believe that the ability to have faith is given -- that all men have awareness of God -- that the Holy Spirit operates from outside all men drawing them -- that they can believe whereupon God gives them faith.

]But also, I believe "prevenient grace"

Let me go review what you said about it. I think I agree.

(4) Conscience is a universal component of God's work within men, but it does not compose the WHOLE of God's work in drawing men to Himself.

Absolutely! That would obviate the work of the Spirit!

Even those who have never heard of God, and who have not heard the Gospel, are by nature given a conscience that "accuses or excuses" them. The Holy SPirit uses conscience, as well as general revelation and common grace to "awaken" men to the light -- this "awakening" is what we call "prevenient grace."

Good. I don't know that I would say "awakening" is "prevenient grace" because too many Calvinists would assert that you are saying "prevenient grace" is, then, "regeneration." I like the first part of your explanation though.

(5) Indeed, Salvation has a past, present and future dimension. We WERE justified, we ARE BEING sanctified, and we WILL BE glorified.

Yup. And now for a "test" -- do you see the justification being of the soul eternally, the sanctification being of the spirit progressively, and the glorification being of the body eventually??

See, Calvies miss this totally. They can go direct to sanctification without ever establishing their justification because they are "passively" elected.

(6) Salvation -- no matter what dispensation, has ALWAYS been by grace, through FAITH (Hebrews 11). That was true to both OT and NT believers. The operation of the HS to and in believers was different, but the means of salvation has not changed.

Amen! Which is why most do not see dispensationalsim.

(7) The OT Saints got all they needed upon the resurrection of Christ, when according to the Gospels many of the "saints" were raised and walked on the earth before ascending to heaven. They no longer await anything because they received all they needed when Jesus declared "it is finished."

Not really. The didn't receive the new covenant" promised in Jer 31:32, JDale. They didn't receive the Abrahamic land covenant wherein they possess their possessions. They didn't receive the Davidic Covenant by which they will rule over the Gentiles. This and the fact that they are to be sanctified as we are (while they are in the flesh) tells us that they will be resurrected bodily into the MK. (cf: Psa 50:3-5, Job 14:13-15, 19:25-28, Dan 12:2, Isa 26:19-21, Ezek 37:12-14, Mt 13:44, Mt 22:11, etal.) This is actually a recent assertion of LaHaye and others which I have held for quite some time developing my own "proofs" as I have listed.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Prevenient Grace... the saving work of God begins not by our being attentive to prevening grace, but by grace that attends us and awakens our attentiveness. The focus is not first of all upon our cooperative initiative by which we imagine ourselves coming early to God, pleading to cooperate. Rather, the initiative comes from grace prevening prior to our first awakening to the mercy and holiness of God.

Thus prevenient Grace elicits "the first wish to please God, the first dawn of light concerning his will, and the first slight transient conviction of having sinned against him. Grace works ahead of us to draw use toward faith, to begin its work in us. Even the first fragile intuition of conviction of sin, the first intimation of our need for God, is the work of preparing, prevening grace, which draws us gradually toward wishing to please God. Grace is working guietly at the point of our desiring, bringing use in time to despair over our own righteousness, challenging our perverse dispositions, so that our distorted wills cease gradually to resist the gifts of God..

I pretty much agree with this but do you have scriptural support?

It is my sincere belief that 'many' individuals mistake the first blossoms of 'prevenient' grace as 'saving' grace and continue to live a sort of half-life in the Christian Faith which bares 'little' real Fruit of the Spirit and while having some 'sense' of salvation actually live out their lives 'unsaved'.

Well, see, this would be my fear also.

skypair

 

[skypair]

24. {even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles...

See, I think in order to interpret this, we need to understand why Jesus wasn't accepted as King on Palm Sunday. They (presumably Israel, right?) were waving palm branches and laying them in His way as if He would be King. Who was it that rejected Him?? Who was it the "didn't know the hour of her visitation??

I would suggest it was the religious leaders. And when we talk here about the Gentiles accepting Him, we are basically noting the same thing -- religious leaders. And if there come an apostacy, it will be from the same place.

I don't think you have chosen a good passage to prove your point, rb.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

See, I think in order to interpret this, we need to understand why Jesus wasn't accepted as King on Palm Sunday. They (presumably Israel, right?) were waving palm branches and laying them in His way as if He would be King. Who was it that rejected Him?? Who was it the "didn't know the hour of her visitation??

I would suggest it was the religious leaders. And when we talk here about the Gentiles accepting Him, we are basically noting the same thing -- religious leaders. And if there come an apostacy, it will be from the same place.

I don't think you have chosen a good passage to prove your point, rb.

skypair

basically the same thing? I don't buy it. But you are entitled to your opinion. I beleive in the priesthood of the believer.

 

[bound]

Hello bound.

Hello johnp.

MT 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Weary and burdened by what? 'Take my yoke upon'... are you suggesting that 'we' actually have to 'do' something? Eek!!!

What do you think one of the 'fruits' of the Spirit is... peace.

Put to death the 'old man' and live in Him and you will have it.

And what we find in scripture is, RO 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. - Phil. 2:12-13

As much as we need to recognize 'God which worketh in us' we also need to recognize He calls us to 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling'.

I guess what I would like to point out is that 'all' works finds it's foundation in Him. God working in us enalbes our working and co-working with God. What appears to be a contradiction (that grace elicits freedom) is a call to action that attests the ground of its action. We can work because God is working in us.

Heb 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
Heb 10:9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Paul's call to "work out your own salvation" does not Pelagianly imply that one may work without the prevening grace of God, but rather only with it. yet the co-working (sunergia, cooperation) design of grace asks for our responsive willing, through which it is God who is working concurrently in us to will and do God's own good pleasure.

No stage of saving faith, not the slightest motion, is a matter of merited goodness. God comes our way not when we merit it, but before we merit it. precisely while we are yet sinners. God is helping us come to the desire to do the good through prevening grace, then to enable a result of good action from that good will.

God comes personally to humanity in the form of a servant. This calls each hearer of the gospel to have that mind that was also in Christ Jesus, who though he was in the form of God counted not equality with God as something to be grasped (Phil. 2:1-6). This is the mind in which we are called to share. This pivotal Christoplogical passage concludes with the imperative, which calls us to work out our own salvation, not that salvation is our work but that it involves our free response to grace. We are to work because it is God who is working in us to enable our working.

Acts 9:3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

Sanctifying grace works both by gradual and instantaneous means. We can not deny that some do experience the Spirit's perfect work as coming to them in an instantaneous flood of consummating grace. Knowing that grace can work powerfully to change life radically in a single sweeping experience, we can not therefore ignore it, for it is a fact of scripture but nor can we deny that grace works quietly and gradually and over a period of time, patiently within the recalcitrant confines of human freedom. I know many such as myself were involved in a lengthly process of receiving it gradually.

Meanwhile, believers learn to cooperate daily with grace by the means of grace: by searching the Scriptures, which attest the history of grace; by attending fellowship at Church; by making use of the ordinances of God; by becoming attentive to conscience; by sharing in common prayer, godly admonition, and good council.

I think that is better said by saying we are drawn to the Object of our faith we are not drawn to faith. John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

I believe you are conflating Prevenient Grace with Sanctifying Grace. Prevenient Grace leads to conviction Sanctifying Grace leads us closer to our Saviour.

1 Tim 1:13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

This would be an expression of all the stages of Grace: Prevenient, Convicting, Justifying and Sanctifying Graces. This is a wonderful outline of God's renewing work in man.

But you are comparing Christians to a false doctrine are you not? If a man is told he must make a decision then as far as he is concerned he has jumped through the hoops and believes himself saved, he might be he might not be.
RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

It is my opinion that this is an error of hyper-calvinism which seeks to remove absolutely all and any activity of the creature in the act of salvation. Frankly I don't believe that this is a normative interpretation of Scripture and so I reject it as a valid exegesis. I think there is 'a lot' that Calvin got right but this expression isn't one of them if it can even be attributed to him.

JN 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "
JN 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.'
Regeneration must precede faith.

Define Regeneration for me so that I can understand your usage of the term? What you call 'regeneration' may well be what I call 'the work of prevening grace'. In a real sense, prevening grace enlivens the conscience. You may simply be conflating the whole process of salvation here.

 

[JDale]

Agreed.

Exactly. We can't just assume that because we appear to understand the scriptures that God has "elected" us, right?

Well, I believe the OT saints had faith, don't you (Heb 11)? It was given to them which believed, right? IOW, I don't think the pattern for justification has changed -- I believe the process of sanctification has changed, don't you?

I believe that the ability to have faith is given -- that all men have awareness of God -- that the Holy Spirit operates from outside all men drawing them -- that they can believe whereupon God gives them faith.

Let me go review what you said about it. I think I agree.

Absolutely! That would obviate the work of the Spirit!

Good. I don't know that I would say "awakening" is "prevenient grace" because too many Calvinists would assert that you are saying "prevenient grace" is, then, "regeneration." I like the first part of your explanation though.

Yup. And now for a "test" -- do you see the justification being of the soul eternally, the sanctification being of the spirit progressively, and the glorification being of the body eventually??

See, Calvies miss this totally. They can go direct to sanctification without ever establishing their justification because they are "passively" elected.

Amen! Which is why most do not see dispensationalsim.

Not really. The didn't receive the new covenant" promised in Jer 31:32, JDale. They didn't receive the Abrahamic land covenant wherein they possess their possessions. They didn't receive the Davidic Covenant by which they will rule over the Gentiles. This and the fact that they are to be sanctified as we are (while they are in the flesh) tells us that they will be resurrected bodily into the MK. (cf: Psa 50:3-5, Job 14:13-15, 19:25-28, Dan 12:2, Isa 26:19-21, Ezek 37:12-14, Mt 13:44, Mt 22:11, etal.) This is actually a recent assertion of LaHaye and others which I have held for quite some time developing my own "proofs" as I have listed.

skypair

I think we mostly agree SP. A couple of places where our views may diverge:

(1) I used the term "awakening" not as though it is an abrupt, alarm clock moment where the HS drags us kicking and screaming out of our spiritual slumber, but as a gradual "enightenment" -- a gradual coming to the light, sensing and seeing the Truth of the Gospel. Though the event of salvation is immediate in terms of receiving Jesus, Prevenient Grace" is that process of becoming aware and awake to the Gospel, enabling us to trust Christ.

(2) I believe all men have a general awareness of God -- Natural Revelation, common grace, and even conscience can and do declare that their is a God. Man can supress even that much knowledge -- and be lost. Should man response positively, the HS will, I believe, give more "light." I do NOT think, however, that a "general awareness" of God can bring one to salvation in and of itself. ONLY Jesus saves.

(3) In speaking of OT Saints I was referring to their "completeness" in spiritual matters. If you are speaking eschatologically, then Romans 9-11 clearly demonstrates that God has a purpose for Israel in the future tense. Those who have died in faith in the past tense, however, while they will be present in the MK, will not be returned to "the flesh" in the temporal sense. They will have their resurrection bodies in the MK. Thus, no "sanctification" of those bodies is needed. Those Jews who believe (and survive) during the Tribulation period -- along with the Tribulation Saints among the Gentiles -- will enter the MK in their fleshly bodies, and will be heir to (and in need of) sanctification -- even during the Kingdom Age.

Of course, that may be a discussion for another thread -- on Eschatology...

JDale

 

[reformedbeliever]

Prevenient Grace" is that process of becoming aware and awake to the Gospel, enabling us to trust Christ.

Didn't you say that not all are given prevenient grace? I think you did, but I may have mis-understood you. If not all are given prevenient grace, are only the elect given this? Would this not be the same as regeneration as people have pointed out before?

 

[skypair]

I think we mostly agree SP. A couple of places where our views may diverge:

(1) I used the term "awakening" not as though it is an abrupt, alarm clock moment where the HS drags us kicking and screaming out of our spiritual slumber, but as a gradual "enightenment" -- a gradual coming to the light, sensing and seeing the Truth of the Gospel. Though the event of salvation is immediate in terms of receiving Jesus, Prevenient Grace" is that process of becoming aware and awake to the Gospel, enabling us to trust Christ.

I agree (I must be getting sick. That's, what, the 5th time I have said "I agree" on BB aready today? Something's wrong with me! :laugh.

(2) I believe all men have a general awareness of God -- Natural Revelation, common grace, and even conscience can and do declare that their is a God. Man can supress even that much knowledge -- and be lost. Should man response positively, the HS will, I believe, give more "light." I do NOT think, however, that a "general awareness" of God can bring one to salvation in and of itself. ONLY Jesus saves.

Yup.

(3) In speaking of OT Saints I was referring to their "completeness" in spiritual matters. If you are speaking eschatologically, then Romans 9-11 clearly demonstrates that God has a purpose for Israel in the future tense. Those who have died in faith in the past tense, however, while they will be present in the MK, will not be returned to "the flesh" in the temporal sense. They will have their resurrection bodies in the MK. Thus, no "sanctification" of those bodies is needed. Those Jews who believe (and survive) during the Tribulation period -- along with the Tribulation Saints among the Gentiles -- will enter the MK in their fleshly bodies, and will be heir to (and in need of) sanctification -- even during the Kingdom Age.

Yeah -- it's another discussion for sure. I see them resurrected into "terrestrially glorified" (1Cor 15:40) bodies meaning bodies like ours except 1) no 2nd death, 2) no procreation, 3) probably sinless, but 4) they will be "flesh and blood" again until the postMK rapture (Rev 20:11 - "earth fled away").

skypair

 

[bound]

Didn't you say that not all are given prevenient grace? I think you did, but I may have mis-understood you. If not all are given prevenient grace, are only the elect given this? Would this not be the same as regeneration as people have pointed out before?

If I did I didn't mean to. It is my belief that prevenient grace is at some level extended to 'all'...

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. - Jn. 12:32

I honestly don't preclude a possible conflation of graces or activity of regeneration with hyper-calvinist or even moderate Calvinist soteriology in comparison with Arminian soteriology. The two are actually very similar 'except' for the more elaborate teaching of grace and sunergia.

 

[reformedbeliever]

If I did I didn't mean to. It is my belief that prevenient grace is at some level extended to 'all'...

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. - Jn. 12:32

I honestly don't preclude a possible conflation of graces or activity of regeneration with hyper-calvinist or even moderate Calvinist soteriology in comparison with Arminian soteriology. The two are actually very similar 'except' for the more elaborate teaching of grace and sunergia.

Well actually...... I was quoting JDale... :laugh: But since you brought it up... not everyone gets to hear the Gospel.... so how can it be extended to all? There is salvation in no other name than Jesus, yes? Thank you brother.

 

[bound]

Well actually...... I was quoting JDale... :laugh:

I'm sorry we are all using similar terminology and these quotes all look the same to me... :laugh:

But since you brought it up... not everyone gets to hear the Gospel.... so how can it be extended to all? There is salvation in no other name than Jesus, yes? Thank you brother.

Yes this is challenging if we assume that one 'must' hear the Gospel in order for prevening grace to regenerate them to a salvific relationship with our Lord and Saviour.

Let me think about how to express this with sensitivity.... :love2:

 

[johnp.]

Hello bound.

Weary and burdened by what? 'Take my yoke upon'... are you suggesting that 'we' actually have to 'do' something? Eek!!!

Weary and burdened is a condition isn't it? By what, by whatever is wearisome I should imagine, I should imagine that would be different for different people but Jesus is open to whoever is weary and burdened. A quick bit of evangelism. How old are you?

What do you think one of the 'fruits' of the Spirit is... peace.

Some think peace means the absence of war do they not? A Good Tree bears good fruit and love is the most exellent way.

Put to death the 'old man' and live in Him and you will have it.

I find living sacrifices tend to wriggle off the altar, don't you find that?

As much as we need to recognize 'God which worketh in us' we also need to recognize He calls us to 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling'.

Then, if you will forgive me, you have not worked it out yet for when you have worked it out you will find that perfect love drives out tremblings. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18.

I guess what I would like to point out is that 'all' works finds it's foundation in Him.

Are you actually saying God is responsible for all sins? Eek!!!

God working in us enalbes our working and co-working with God.

As I said a while ago, and I think it bears repeating, anything good coming out of me was just Jesus passing through.
Eph 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
LK 17:7 "Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, `Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8 Would he not rather say, `Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9 Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, `We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' "

What appears to be a contradiction (that grace elicits freedom) is a call to action that attests the ground of its action. We can work because God is working in us.

Same again. Are you actually saying God is responsible for all sins? Eek!!! If not and you mean only righteous acts are meant then show me a righteous act and I will agree with you. It's only imputed righteousness we have not actual therefore our sinful nature, the old man, will have it's way with us.

I'll come back later as I was trying to reply to Allan.

john.

 

[JDale]

Didn't you say that not all are given prevenient grace? I think you did, but I may have mis-understood you. If not all are given prevenient grace, are only the elect given this? Would this not be the same as regeneration as people have pointed out before?

I said all are given "prevenient grace" according to the extent which they respond positively to the light given via conscience, general/natural revelation and common grace. Sorry if I was not clear.

If those who have never heard the gospel respond positively to the light they have in these three arenas, it is my belief that "prevenient grace" will bear them along, drawing them toward the Gospel. If they supress or resist the light they are given, then they are held eternally responsible for their failure, though they may never actually hear "the Gospel" (Romans 2).

JDale

 

[reformedbeliever]

it is my belief that "prevenient grace" will bear them along, drawing them toward the Gospel

You will have to explain how that happens to me. Maybe I am simply not getting what you are saying. If someone responds to whatever light they have... then they will eventually have the Gospel? Many respond to the light they think they have ....... and they end up being scientologists or new agers or ........................

 

[JDale]

You will have to explain how that happens to me. Maybe I am simply not getting what you are saying. If someone responds to whatever light they have... then they will eventually have the Gospel? Many respond to the light they think they have ....... and they end up being scientologists or new agers or ........................

RB:

If they respond to "the light they have" and become Scientologists or or New Agers, well, then they've supressed their knowledge of God -- the witness of their conscience, common grace and natural/general revelation, have they not? As Romans 1 testifies, " though the knew God, they glorified Him not as God...."

The only change I would make to the sentence you wrote above is, "If someone responds [positively] to whatever light they have....then they will eventually have the opportunity to hear the Gospel." Then, Prevenient Grace having enabled them to believe, they may -- or may not.

JDale