Prevenient Grace

[Blammo]

Romans 10:13-21 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

 

[Andy T.]

The indication you mention is from second hand sources...heresay. As Andy pointed out, that argument cannot be factual, so in essence an unfactual argument cannot disprove preveniant grace.

No, I never said that it can't be factual. It just can't be proven scientifically, which seems to be the type of evidence you are demanding. Second hand sources may be factual (i.e., true) or they may not be. But to say that second hand sources can't be factual, you must prove the contrary - that they are always false. And that hasn't been done, even remotely so, on your side.

 

[webdog]

No, I never said that it can't be factual. It just can't be proven scientifically, which seems to be the type of evidence you are demanding. Second hand sources may be factual (i.e., true) or they may not be. But to say that second hand sources can't be factual, you must prove the contrary - that they are always false. And that hasn't been done, even remotely so, on your side.

What? :laugh:

 

[webdog]

Romans 10:13-21 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

To this I wll also add that we know angels have feet, as they look like men. While an angel is flying in Rev. 14:6, there is no reason that God cannot send an angel to a remote distant tribe that we assume has never heard the Gospel.

 

[Andy T.]

...and I'll counter that the preponderence of evidence shows they have.

Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth (zodiac) in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
Job 38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
Job 38:34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Here's two ways the Gospel is proclaimed...neither one dealing with man.

I see nothing in the Job 38 verses about the Gospel being preached. Job 38-41 are a series of rhetorical questions from God to Job to show Job's 'smallness' compared to God.

Revelation 14:6 is during the Tribulation, so I would hardly use this verse as normative for our current dispensation. And even then, much could be said as to how these verses should be interpreted, since Revelation uses much imagery (e.g., is it really a monster coming out of the sea in ch. 13 or is that an image of something else, as most dispies believe).

 

[Andy T.]

To this I wll also add that we know angels have feet, as they look like men. While an angel is flying in Rev. 14:6, there is no reason that God cannot send an angel to a remote distant tribe that we assume has never heard the Gospel.

And there is no reason to believe that God does this in all cases for unreached peoples. Not saying he hasn't ever done it, but there is no reason to believe that he does it always or even normatively.

I will point out, that it matters not to me who is right on this particular issue. If you happen to be right, it in no way affects any other doctrines (of grace) I hold to. However, your theology requires you to be right on this issue, else you will need to adjust your theology. Because if you are wrong on this, then God is not equally "fair" to everyone in offering them the Gospel. So have fun trying to prove the unprovable for a peripheal doctrine that is essential to the rest of your theology.

 

[webdog]

I see nothing in the Job 38 verses about the Gospel being preached. Job 38-41 are a series of rhetorical questions from God to Job to show Job's 'smallness' compared to God.

Revelation 14:6 is during the Tribulation, so I would hardly use this verse as normative for our current dispensation. And even then, much could be said as to how these verses should be interpreted, since Revelation uses much imagery (e.g., is it really a monster coming out of the sea in ch. 13 or is that an image of something else, as most dispies believe).

In regards to the passage in Job...From the Setterfields' site...
http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/index.html

As far as Revelation goes, I bring that up as proof that God does use other means besides humans to spread the Gospel, regardless if it's in a different dispensation or not makes it irrelevant.

 

[webdog]

And there is no reason to believe that God does this in all cases for unreached peoples. Not saying he hasn't ever done it, but there is no reason to believe that he does it always or even normatively.

I will point out, that it matters not to me who is right on this particular issue. If you happen to be right, it in no way affects any other doctrines (of grace) I hold to. However, your theology requires you to be right on this issue, else you will need to adjust your theology. Because if you are wrong on this, then God is not equally "fair" to everyone in offering them the Gospel. So have fun trying to prove the unprovable for a peripheal doctrine that is essential to the rest of your theology.

Rev. 14:6 is proof enough, regardless of what dispensation. If something happens in the past, present or future in Scripture...it happens guaranteed. It matters not if I'm right or not, but what Scripture says. It doesn't say anywhere that there are those who don't hear, but there is Scripture showing the Gospel spread through other means than humans.
Gospel means "good news". Do you think it was "good news" the angels brought to Lot in S&G? While it wasn't in regards to spiritual salvation (Lot was already righteous), it was in regards to physical salvation.

 

[Andy T.]

In regards to the passage in Job...From the Setterfields' site...
http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/index.html

As far as Revelation goes, I bring that up as proof that God does use other means besides humans to spread the Gospel, regardless if it's in a different dispensation or not makes it irrelevant.

Gospel in the Stars? If you have to rely on that, then you are really reaching.

Oh, I think it does matter that Rev. 14:6 is another dispensation. The very meaning of dispensation is about how God works within a time period. We have no biblical evidence that God works by using angels in this dispensation to carry the Gospel.

 

[Andy T.]

Rev. 14:6 is proof enough, regardless of what dispensation.

I certainly understand why you have to take this verse out of its context and apply it to all dispensations, because if you don't, then other parts of your theology are in question.

 

[Andy T.]

On Romans 10:18 - Paul is asking rhetorically, did Israel not hear (see v. 16 and 19)? Yes, they did. This is not referring to all people - just Israel and their rejection of the Gospel. The verses in Romans are not definitive in defense of your position that everyone who ever exists hears the Gospel.

 

[JDale]

No web, your argument is not a valid argument... as has been pointed out to you more than once. Of course we do not know what has been revealed to those who have died.... but we can have a very good indication as to whether they had heard the Gospel, by the very people of their society.
I would love to think that my native american ancestors had the Gospel brought to them in a supernatural way before they died. I hold a glimmer of that hope...... however slight it may be.

Read the Book of Mormon! They're SURE it happened!

JDale

 

[JDale]

On Romans 10:18 - Paul is asking rhetorically, did Israel not hear (see v. 16 and 19)? Yes, they did. This is not referring to all people - just Israel and their rejection of the Gospel. The verses in Romans are not definitive in defense of your position that everyone who ever exists hears the Gospel.

I quite agree that not everyone who ever exists hears the Gospel. That does NOT make God unfair, nor does it mean that He has "predestined" those who have not heard to hell.

People don't go to hell because God sends them there -- people go to hell because THEIR SIN sends them there. Put another way, ALL are fallen, sinful, totally depraved. God doesn't have to lift His Holy Finger nor wink and nod for ANYONE to bust hell WIDE open. Thanks to Adam, we've got that down pat -- and we follow his example every chance we get.

Whether one agrees or not is immaterial -- mankind receives varying degrees of light. There are those who respond positively, and God then gives them more light -- this is all part of the "drawing" process of prevenient grace. This process utilizes elements of common grace, natural revelation, and human conscience to do the work. Should those who do not hear "The Gospel" die, that they God to hell is not the fault of God, it is still their responsibility. Though, as I've indicated before, I believe the church is failing in its "Great Commission" -- falling far short of what God requires of us....That's for another thread, though.

JDale

 

[Andy T.]

I quite agree that not everyone who ever exists hears the Gospel. That does NOT make God unfair, nor does it mean that He has "predestined" those who have not heard to hell.

People don't go to hell because God sends them there -- people go to hell because THEIR SIN sends them there. Put another way, ALL are fallen, sinful, totally depraved. God doesn't have to lift His Holy Finger nor wink and nod for ANYONE to bust hell WIDE open. Thanks to Adam, we've got that down pat -- and we follow his example every chance we get.

:thumbs: And I quite agree with this part of your post, which shows that the Classical (or "Reformed") Arminian position on Total Depravity is very, very close (if not almost identical) to the Classical Calvinist position. Both are biblical.

 

[bound]

:thumbs: And I quite agree with this part of your post, which shows that the Classical (or "Reformed") Arminian position on Total Depravity is very, very close (if not almost identical) to the Classical Calvinist position. Both are biblical.

That shouldn't surprise anyone since Arminianism grew out of Classical Calvinism and was a reaction to hyper-Calvinism. In a real since we are Calvinists or Reformed Theologians. Normative interpretation of Scripture is 'well' Normative. :thumbs:

 

[skypair]

For your attention, RB:

Prevenient grace is… a Christian theological concept rooted in Augustinian theology and embraced primarily by Arminian Christians… John Wesley typically referred to it in 18th century language as preventing grace. In modern English, the phrase preceding grace would have a similar meaning.

Prevenient grace is… the divine love that surrounds all humanity and precedes any and all of our conscious impulses toward God. This grace prompts our first wish to please God, our first glimmer of understanding concerning God's will, and our 'first slight transient conviction' of having sinned against God. God's grace also awakens in us an earnest longing for deliverance from sin and death and moves us toward repentance and faith…

Prevenient grace is…divine grace, which precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin , prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.

Thomas Oden of Drew University defines prevenient grace as, "...the grace that begins to enable one to choose further to cooperate with saving grace. By offering the will the restored capacity to respond to grace, the person then may freely and increasingly become an active, willing participant in receiving the conditions for justification."

Scriptures often cited in affirming and supporting this doctrine include:

Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you..."

Ezekiel 34:11, 16: "For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out...I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak..."

Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

John 6:44: "No man can come unto me, unless the Father who hath sent me, draw him..."

John 16:7-11 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

Romans 2:4: "...the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance..."

Philippians 2:12-13: "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God that worketh in you according to his good pleasure, both to will and to do."

1 John 4:19: "We love him, because he first loved us."

How about that RB...? Have at it -- rip it to shreds, tear it apart...
Or try to understand someone elses position, even though you may not go along with every aspect of it.

JDale

Very good, JDale. I see the makings of a book in you. :applause:

skypair

 

[skypair]

I believe I do understand your position as you see it. What I would like now is an answer to the objections that I and Rippon and others have given in oposition to your position. Defend those objections please. Such as .......... Not all have heard of Jesus or the Gospel. I thought that prevenient grace gave everyone a chance to respond to the Gospel? No?

Prevenient grace does NOT presume the hearing of the "gospel" IMO. It presumes the revelation of God in His goodness and mercy.

Don't confuse prevenient grace with common grace or the amount of light that all people have........ that only proves them guilty... it does not lead them to the Gospel. Go back and read the replies to which we have given you sir.

Common grace need not "lead to the gospel" either, rb.

What both need to do is lead one to belief in God whereupon God gives faith through JUSTIFICATION. If one has also heard the gospel of grace and believed, one simultaneously receives SANCTIFICATION of the Holy Spirit.

skypair

 

[skypair]

However, the preponderence of evidence we do have leans heavily in favor of the position that at least some people never hear the Gospel before they die.

True. But those who are JUSTIFIED by belief in God will be raised in the "resurrection of the just" into the MK and hear it there!

And though it cannot be cited as definitive proof of our position, I wonder why Paul in Rom. 1:20 would indicate that people are without excuse - not because they have heard anything in particular, but merely because they see the evidence of God in creation?

That is because the requirement is to seek and find God, not Christ per se. Even today, if there is a tribe that has not been discovered somewhere on the earth, the requirement for justification is to believe in the God Who has revealed Himself. If such die before a missionary comes with the gospel of grace (or an infant die in innocence), that one will hear it in the MK anyway.

skypair

 

[JDale]

:thumbs: And I quite agree with this part of your post, which shows that the Classical (or "Reformed") Arminian position on Total Depravity is very, very close (if not almost identical) to the Classical Calvinist position. Both are biblical.

AHHH!!!!!!! That's what I've been saying!!! :laugh:

:BangHead:

JDale

 

[JDale]

Prevenient grace does NOT presume the hearing of the "gospel" IMO. It presumes the revelation of God in His goodness and mercy.

Common grace need not "lead to the gospel" either, rb.

What both need to do is lead one to belief in God whereupon God gives faith through JUSTIFICATION. If one has also heard the gospel of grace and believed, one simultaneously receives SANCTIFICATION of the Holy Spirit.

skypair

One slight correction -- Justifcation comes BY FAITH -- faith does not come "THROUGH justification."

JDale