Prevenient Grace

Romans 10:13-21 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

 

No, I never said that it can't be factual. It just can't be proven scientifically, which seems to be the type of evidence you are demanding. Second hand sources may be factual (i.e., true) or they may not be. But to say that second hand sources can't be factual, you must prove the contrary - that they are always false. And that hasn't been done, even remotely so, on your side.

 

What? :laugh:

 

To this I wll also add that we know angels have feet, as they look like men. While an angel is flying in Rev. 14:6, there is no reason that God cannot send an angel to a remote distant tribe that we assume has never heard the Gospel.

 

I see nothing in the Job 38 verses about the Gospel being preached. Job 38-41 are a series of rhetorical questions from God to Job to show Job's 'smallness' compared to God.

Revelation 14:6 is during the Tribulation, so I would hardly use this verse as normative for our current dispensation. And even then, much could be said as to how these verses should be interpreted, since Revelation uses much imagery (e.g., is it really a monster coming out of the sea in ch. 13 or is that an image of something else, as most dispies believe).

 

And there is no reason to believe that God does this in all cases for unreached peoples. Not saying he hasn't ever done it, but there is no reason to believe that he does it always or even normatively.

I will point out, that it matters not to me who is right on this particular issue. If you happen to be right, it in no way affects any other doctrines (of grace) I hold to. However, your theology requires you to be right on this issue, else you will need to adjust your theology. Because if you are wrong on this, then God is not equally "fair" to everyone in offering them the Gospel. So have fun trying to prove the unprovable for a peripheal doctrine that is essential to the rest of your theology.

 

In regards to the passage in Job...From the Setterfields' site...
http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/index.html

As far as Revelation goes, I bring that up as proof that God does use other means besides humans to spread the Gospel, regardless if it's in a different dispensation or not makes it irrelevant.

 

Rev. 14:6 is proof enough, regardless of what dispensation. If something happens in the past, present or future in Scripture...it happens guaranteed. It matters not if I'm right or not, but what Scripture says. It doesn't say anywhere that there are those who don't hear, but there is Scripture showing the Gospel spread through other means than humans.
Gospel means "good news". Do you think it was "good news" the angels brought to Lot in S&G? While it wasn't in regards to spiritual salvation (Lot was already righteous), it was in regards to physical salvation.

 

Gospel in the Stars? If you have to rely on that, then you are really reaching.

Oh, I think it does matter that Rev. 14:6 is another dispensation. The very meaning of dispensation is about how God works within a time period. We have no biblical evidence that God works by using angels in this dispensation to carry the Gospel.

 

I certainly understand why you have to take this verse out of its context and apply it to all dispensations, because if you don't, then other parts of your theology are in question.

 

On Romans 10:18 - Paul is asking rhetorically, did Israel not hear (see v. 16 and 19)? Yes, they did. This is not referring to all people - just Israel and their rejection of the Gospel. The verses in Romans are not definitive in defense of your position that everyone who ever exists hears the Gospel.

 

Read the Book of Mormon! They're SURE it happened!

JDale

 

I quite agree that not everyone who ever exists hears the Gospel. That does NOT make God unfair, nor does it mean that He has "predestined" those who have not heard to hell.

People don't go to hell because God sends them there -- people go to hell because THEIR SIN sends them there. Put another way, ALL are fallen, sinful, totally depraved. God doesn't have to lift His Holy Finger nor wink and nod for ANYONE to bust hell WIDE open. Thanks to Adam, we've got that down pat -- and we follow his example every chance we get.

Whether one agrees or not is immaterial -- mankind receives varying degrees of light. There are those who respond positively, and God then gives them more light -- this is all part of the "drawing" process of prevenient grace. This process utilizes elements of common grace, natural revelation, and human conscience to do the work. Should those who do not hear "The Gospel" die, that they God to hell is not the fault of God, it is still their responsibility. Though, as I've indicated before, I believe the church is failing in its "Great Commission" -- falling far short of what God requires of us....That's for another thread, though.

JDale

 

:thumbs: And I quite agree with this part of your post, which shows that the Classical (or "Reformed") Arminian position on Total Depravity is very, very close (if not almost identical) to the Classical Calvinist position. Both are biblical.

 

That shouldn't surprise anyone since Arminianism grew out of Classical Calvinism and was a reaction to hyper-Calvinism. In a real since we are Calvinists or Reformed Theologians. Normative interpretation of Scripture is 'well' Normative. :thumbs:

 

Very good, JDale. I see the makings of a book in you. :applause:

skypair

 

Prevenient grace does NOT presume the hearing of the "gospel" IMO. It presumes the revelation of God in His goodness and mercy.

Common grace need not "lead to the gospel" either, rb.

What both need to do is lead one to belief in God whereupon God gives faith through JUSTIFICATION. If one has also heard the gospel of grace and believed, one simultaneously receives SANCTIFICATION of the Holy Spirit.

skypair

 

True. But those who are JUSTIFIED by belief in God will be raised in the "resurrection of the just" into the MK and hear it there!

That is because the requirement is to seek and find God, not Christ per se. Even today, if there is a tribe that has not been discovered somewhere on the earth, the requirement for justification is to believe in the God Who has revealed Himself. If such die before a missionary comes with the gospel of grace (or an infant die in innocence), that one will hear it in the MK anyway.

skypair

 

AHHH!!!!!!! That's what I've been saying!!! :laugh:

:BangHead:

JDale

 

One slight correction -- Justifcation comes BY FAITH -- faith does not come "THROUGH justification."

JDale