Prevenient Grace

We are clearly separated by denominational differences!

Seriously though, I think we are using differnet Bible versions!

JDale

 

So David's prayer and Rev 22:19 and Ex 32:33 ("And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.") mean nothing?? More likely, they just don't suit your theology, right? IOW, I am trying to stay consistent with scripture and you are --- what?

skypair

 

????????????????????????

Go ahead. I'm game. :laugh:

skypair

 

Oh come on RB! I've shared -- as have several others -- what prevenient grace is. Scriptural evidence has been cited by those who hold to the view. You, and others, have summarily dismissed or ignored any such evidence or views that do not support or affirm your particular theology.

Sometimes, there comes a point where people are "talking past" one another. I think this thread has passed that point.

And incidentally, no, there are no "inspired correct" versions named the JDale professor of Theology Bible. I used the KJV in this instance because it was handy -- what version were you reading from? It would be interesting to compare the methods of interpretation and different manuscripts used to render these verses so differently.

JDale

 

No, RB, God is "the same..." God is "faithful..."

Man, on the other hand, CAN change his mind. That was my only point.

JDale

 

Common Grace to me is rooted in Jesus' Promises...

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." - John 12:32

:thumbs:

 

For your attention, RB:

I will additionally mention several other things that I or others have posted before -- either here, or on the total depravity thread...

Prevenient grace is… a Christian theological concept rooted in Augustinian theology and embraced primarily by Arminian Christians… John Wesley typically referred to it in 18th century language as preventing grace. In modern English, the phrase preceding grace would have a similar meaning.

Prevenient grace is… the divine love that surrounds all humanity and precedes any and all of our conscious impulses toward God. This grace prompts our first wish to please God, our first glimmer of understanding concerning God's will, and our 'first slight transient conviction' of having sinned against God. God's grace also awakens in us an earnest longing for deliverance from sin and death and moves us toward repentance and faith…

Prevenient grace is…divine grace, which precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin , prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.

Thomas Oden of Drew University defines prevenient grace as, "...the grace that begins to enable one to choose further to cooperate with saving grace. By offering the will the restored capacity to respond to grace, the person then may freely and increasingly become an active, willing participant in receiving the conditions for justification."

Scriptures often cited in affirming and supporting this doctrine include:

Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you..."

Ezekiel 34:11, 16: "For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out...I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak..."

Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

John 6:44: "No man can come unto me, unless the Father who hath sent me, draw him..."

John 16:7-11 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

Romans 2:4: "...the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance..."

Philippians 2:12-13: "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God that worketh in you according to his good pleasure, both to will and to do."

1 John 4:19: "We love him, because he first loved us."

How about that RB...? Have at it -- rip it to shreds, tear it apart...
Or try to understand someone elses position, even though you may not go along with every aspect of it.

JDale

 

Already has been refuted, as this can not be proven. This is pure assumption that cannot be backed either logically (first hand knowledge of a third pary's knowledge), or scripturally. If this is it, I would say that all opposition has been met.

 

No, it has not been "refuted" as you have not proven the contrary. As I mentioned a few days ago, if you are looking for scientific proof then neither one of us can prove our position. However, the preponderence of evidence we do have leans heavily in favor of the position that at least some people never hear the Gospel before they die. And though it cannot be cited as definitive proof of our position, I wonder why Paul in Rom. 1:20 would indicate that people are without excuse - not because they have heard anything in particular, but merely because they see the evidence of God in creation?

 

The indication you mention is from second hand sources...heresay. As Andy pointed out, that argument cannot be factual, so in essence an unfactual argument cannot disprove preveniant grace.

 

...and I'll counter that the preponderence of evidence shows they have.

Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth (zodiac) in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
Job 38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
Job 38:34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Here's two ways the Gospel is proclaimed...neither one dealing with man.