Primitive Baptists beliefs

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You've lost me here. What do you mean? Please expound.


The rebirth, the birth from above was what caused me to plead for mercy. The rebirth, regeneration, is what opened my eyes, ears, and heart to truly realize the despair I was in.


But please expound on this post, please...

I will when I get some sleep....this topic has kept me up too long.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Willis......Did you get a chance to read Jerome's Post 11, I found it dead on......

PB’s have characteristically held, not to “Lordship Salvation” but, to “Temporal Salvation”. That is to say, our position has been that there is a distinction to be made between Sonship and Discipleship—between being a child of God and being a follower of Jesus Christ.
Quote:
to make a long story short, a few of our preachers became enamored with (or you might even say “star-struck by” MacArthur and Sproul and Jay Adams and other popular figures in the “reformed” evangelical community, and they began to subscribe to his views on “perseverance” or “Lordship Salvation”. When these ministers began to circulate these views among the Old Baptists and sought to implement a new paradigm of Biblical interpretation that blurred the classic distinctions between sonship and discipleship—that is, when they married both concepts and taught that regeneration inevitably leads to gospel repentance, faith, and obedience—they stirred confusion among the PB’s.
Quote:
[The Calvinistic view of perseverance] fosters a climate of condescension and judgmentalism. It creates a culture of super-saints, who do everything right—from homeschooling, to raising organic vegetables, to taking notes in church and repeating a catechism—and then proceed to scrutinize the rest of us under a cloak of “concern”. It is not a gospel for sinners, but for the righteous – for people who have all the boxes checked. It sets a person up as a judge to determine whether or not another individual has truly been saved.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You've lost me here. What do you mean? Please expound.


The rebirth, the birth from above was what caused me to plead for mercy. The rebirth, regeneration, is what opened my eyes, ears, and heart to truly realize the despair I was in.


But please expound on this post, please...

OK then allow me to back up a bit.....I have been up most of the night due to some family sickness so allow me some time to compose these thoughts properly. I look at different characteristics of God that the bible allows me to glimpse & I see two very distinct ones that sometimes confuses people ....One is Gods being "JUST" & the other is Gods "MERCY."

With human creation, it is just for Him to see us "ALL" deserving hell, not heaven. And let me stress the word DESERVE here. We are not talking about whether people actually end up in hell, or whether only some end up in hell & some in heaven. We are talking about what ALL DESERVE......and all deserve condemnation (all filthy rags).

So that is God's Justice & you wont see me arguing with that, cause I believe it is Just. However in Romans 9:15 God says, "15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

So you dont see anything in that statement about JUSTICE do you? The context of the message is only of His MERCY. The two different characteristics belong in two different categories, and election is a matter of MERCY rather than JUSTICE.

& so now lets further this discussion with a question.....Shouldn't God show mercy to everyone? Well then, is JUSTICE being done by that....JUSTICE can do nothing but send every human being to hell.

It was not Justice that saved a wretch like me or you Willis or Rippon or Tim or James......it was His Grace & Mercy.

But now factor in all those souls who were aborted, died in childbirth or were born mentally incapable of even understanding the Gospel.....are we to simply relegate them to hell? First, thats Gods business, but I dont believe a Merciful God would do such a thing....its not in that Merciful character.......See Matthew19:14 ( “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”)....... Thats Him exercising Mercy.

 

[Rippon]

So that is God's Justice & you wont see me arguing with that, cause I believe it is Just. However in Romans 9:15 God says, "15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

So you dont see anything in that statement about JUSTICE do you? The context of the message is only of His MERCY. The two different characteristics belong in two different categories, and election is a matter of MERCY rather than JUSTICE.

Don't neglect Romans 9:18 :"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

Two different elements are going on.

But now factor in all those souls who were aborted, died in childbirth or were born mentally incapable of even understanding the Gospel.....are we to simply relegate them to hell? First, thats Gods business, but I dont believe a Merciful God would do such a thing....its not in that Merciful character.......See Matthew19:14 ( “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”)....... Thats Him exercising Mercy.

When you say things like "I don't believe God would do this or that" you are in the realm of speculation. I don't know when it will sink into your ears but you really need to submit to Deut. 29:29. Your conjectures are a waste of your precious time. And I can tell when anger, bitterness and frustration is building up in you. Rest in God's righteousness. Don't fight it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Don't neglect Romans 9:18 :"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

Two different elements are going on.


When you say things like "I don't believe God would do this or that" you are in the realm of speculation. I don't know when it will sink into your ears but you really need to submit to Deut. 29:29. Your conjectures are a waste of your precious time. And I can tell when anger, bitterness and frustration is building up in you. Rest in God's righteousness. Don't fight it.

So you have not read my bio Favorite Verse then im assuming Dr. FREUD? It goes like this: Genesis 18:25. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Not to derail a good thread, but the name Primitive Baptist congers up the sight of a caveman carrying a Bible, and knocking potential converts over the head with his club.....:smilewinkgrin:

Google "The Black Rock Address" and you'll find out why we're called Primitive Baptists.

No back to your topic. I appreciate the topic as it helps me to know something about the beliefs of PBs. Still, I can't agree with only the elect going to eternity. I could never figure how a person would know for sure they were one of the elect without some physical sign to confirm their belief. If someone would explain this, I'd be grateful.

The Book of Life was written (finished, done, and populated) from the foundation of the world. Which means every person that was named there was named and had his name on there from the foundation of the world. It follows therefore that the blood shed FROM THE FOUNDATION of the world by the Lamb slain FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD had their redemption and salvation redeemed IN GOD'S ETERNAL MIND before He even had the first star created.

These are the elect who at that point were not even existing in time, on earth, but in God's mind, whose salvation and redemption as far as the Triune God is concerned, is done and delivered.

Their eternal salvation and redemption, authored by Christ, was PASSIVE, ENTIRELY BASED ON GOD'S MERCY AND GRACE, and TOTALLY UNRELATED TO THEIR SOCIAL, RACIAL, TRIBAL, NATIONAL, THEOLOGICAL, CREDAL, SOTERIOLOGICAL statuses IN TIME.
Their salvation is UNTO HEAVEN, sealed on earth, by the blood of the Lamb of glory slain at the cross on Calvary.

Now, Christ having finished what He was supposed to do here on earth, in time, for the eternal benefit of the elect, directed His apostles (not His church as many maintain), to go out and preach the good news of a God who condescended to man in human form, and took their sins away through His blood, and to instruct those whom they (in their limited physical capacity) are able to reach, in the way they are to live with each other, and those without, as pilgrims on their way to their true country.

Now, we move from eternal salvation, which is solely the province of Christ, absolutely passive to the elect, a GIFT that was GIVEN, not a gift because it is received (as in many illustrations), to TIME SALVATION.

Those who believe, and are baptized, will be saved (gospelly) in that they will move from worship of false gods and doctrines to the worship of the True God, and knowledge of true doctrine.
Now, will everyone hear and obey, among those who are elect ?
Our answer is no.

Notice that in PB teaching, eternal salvation is both universal,( in that social class, theology, creed, geography, physical, mental, psychological infirmities, or chronology is compassed and bypassed by the mercy of God) and individual (in that the elect, and only the elect among mankind and in mankind's existence, are covered by the blood of Christ).

We do not hold that all of mankind will be saved, only those among mankind, wherever and whenever mankind existed and is found, are covered by the blood and therefore atoned for.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Google "The Black Rock Address" and you'll find out why we're called Primitive Baptists.



The Book of Life was written (finished, done, and populated) from the foundation of the world. Which means every person that was named there was named and had his name on there from the foundation of the world. It follows therefore that the blood shed FROM THE FOUNDATION of the world by the Lamb slain FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD had their redemption and salvation redeemed IN GOD'S ETERNAL MIND before He even had the first star created.

These are the elect who at that point were not even existing in time, on earth, but in God's mind, whose salvation and redemption as far as the Triune God is concerned, is done and delivered.

Their eternal salvation and redemption, authored by Christ, was PASSIVE, ENTIRELY BASED ON GOD'S MERCY AND GRACE, and TOTALLY UNRELATED TO THEIR SOCIAL, RACIAL, TRIBAL, NATIONAL, THEOLOGICAL, CREDAL, SOTERIOLOGICAL statuses IN TIME.
Their salvation is UNTO HEAVEN, sealed on earth, by the blood of the Lamb of glory slain at the cross on Calvary.

Now, Christ having finished what He was supposed to do here on earth, in time, for the eternal benefit of the elect, directed His apostles (not His church as many maintain), to go out and preach the good news of a God who condescended to man in human form, and took their sins away through His blood, and to instruct those whom they (in their limited physical capacity) are able to reach, in the way they are to live with each other, and those without, as pilgrims on their way to their true country.

Now, we move from eternal salvation, which is solely the province of Christ, absolutely passive to the elect, a GIFT that was GIVEN, not a gift because it is received (as in many illustrations), to TIME SALVATION.

Those who believe, and are baptized, will be saved (gospelly) in that they will move from worship of false gods and doctrines to the worship of the True God, and knowledge of true doctrine.
Now, will everyone hear and obey, among those who are elect ?
Our answer is no.

Notice that in PB teaching, eternal salvation is both universal,( in that social class, theology, creed, geography, physical, mental, psychological infirmities, or chronology is compassed and bypassed by the mercy of God) and individual (in that the elect, and only the elect among mankind and in mankind's existence, are covered by the blood of Christ).

We do not hold that all of mankind will be saved, only those among mankind, wherever and whenever mankind existed and is found, are covered by the blood and therefore atoned for.

Glad to have ya as one of "them" Brother Pinoy. :thumbs:

Maybe this will clear up things:

http://www.iowaprimitivebaptist.org/docs/Ten Reasons Primitive Baptists Are Not Calvinists.htm

 

[Yeshua1]

Excerpt from Wiki:

the sentence stating "a man can die without knowing Jesus and still receive resurrection" is not accurate either. Primitive Baptists believe wholeheartedly that EVERY elect will know Christ through Regeneration. What Primitive Baptists DENY is that every elect person will hear the Gospel. There is an enormous difference between the two concepts.

So I would be interested to hear what "NEW SCHOOL" Baptists think about the above paragraph. Please advise. thanks.

IF a sinner has not received jesus thru faith, how can they be saved though, as the bible is very clear that we preach/teach jesus to sinners, and they receive him unto salvation?

I am addressing those with capabilities to accept jesus and get saved, not infants/or those with severe menatl disabilities here...

So would you say that PB view all of the elect will get to heaven, as that is promise of god towards them, but some may or may not get "saved" while here on earth?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

IF a sinner has not received jesus thru faith, how can they be saved though, as the bible is very clear that we preach/teach jesus to sinners, and they receive him unto salvation?

I am addressing those with capabilities to accept jesus and get saved, not infants/or those with severe menatl disabilities here...

So would you say that PB view all of the elect will get to heaven, as that is promise of god towards them, but some may or may not get "saved" while here on earth?

Did you read Pinoys post? All the (those elect are saved)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

PBs believe that all of the elect are regenerated by an immediate act of God apart from any means whatsoever, and that the gospel is NOT instrumental in regeneration. (John 3:8, John 8:47, I Corinthians 2:14)

 

[JamesL]

I googled "Black Rock Address" and found it very lacking.

Arguing almost exclusively from a bunch of "what-ifs" and emotional reasoning.

The arguments against Sunday Schools and Bible Societies were in total conflict with each other.

The gist of Sunday School - we should not indoctrinate unregenerate children, out of fear that they might mistakenly think they're Christians. But, it's ok to teach them to read so they can read scripture for themselves.

But the emotional argument against Bible Societies is a fear that they're putting the scriptures in the hands of unregenerate people, leading to scriptural abuse.

If it's dangerous to put scriptures in the hands of the unregenerate, then why would you want to teach unregenerate children to read the scriptures ???

But really, the whole thing was thoroughly lacking scripture, as it was nothing but an emotional tizzy built on the foundation of fear and empty rhetoric.

Good job. Wow.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I googled "Black Rock Address" and found it very lacking.

Arguing almost exclusively from a bunch of "what-ifs" and emotional reasoning.

The arguments against Sunday Schools and Bible Societies were in total conflict with each other.

The gist of Sunday School - we should not indoctrinate unregenerate children, out of fear that they might mistakenly think they're Christians. But, it's ok to teach them to read so they can read scripture for themselves.

But the emotional argument against Bible Societies is a fear that they're putting the scriptures in the hands of unregenerate people, leading to scriptural abuse.

If it's dangerous to put scriptures in the hands of the unregenerate, then why would you want to teach unregenerate children to read the scriptures ???

But really, the whole thing was thoroughly lacking scripture, as it was nothing but an emotional tizzy built on the foundation of fear and empty rhetoric.

Good job. Wow.

Try "The Old School Baptist Web Site"

 

[salzer mtn]

PBs believe that all of the elect are regenerated by an immediate act of God apart from any means whatsoever, and that the gospel is NOT instrumental in regeneration. (John 3:8, John 8:47, I Corinthians 2:14)

I believe man is passive in regeneration but active in conversion. I think what some call conviction of sin in a persons heart others call regeneration. I think what some believe is conversion when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ others call gospel salvation or time salvation. I happen to believe in a day of salvation appointed to all the elect. This day of salvation is the day the convert knows he is in Christ Jesus. I would call this day of salvation conversion. This conversion comes when you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. There are to many scriptures in the bible that commands us to come to Christ for me to deny this. Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. For a person to believe in regeneration and not to believe in conversion goes back to the Indian riding the horse scenario. For a Indian or a black man in the deepest Africa to live on this earth in a secluded place without any knowledge of God and Christ and then be regenerated but not understanding what has happened to him and die and go to heaven is to mystical for me. Oh by the way what does happen to him ? is his life changed ? Does he leave off killing his enemies, does he leave off stealing horses or pigs from other tribes ? These different beliefs will always be excepted by some a rejected by others as long as time last. Some believe Apostle Paul was saved on the road to Damascus because the Lord told Ananias of Paul, behold he prayeth and others believe that Paul was saved when he received his sight and was filled with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe man is passive in regeneration but active in conversion. I think what some call conviction of sin in a persons heart others call regeneration. I think what some believe is conversion when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ others call gospel salvation or time salvation. I happen to believe in a day of salvation appointed to all the elect. This day of salvation is the day the convert knows he is in Christ Jesus. I would call this day of salvation conversion. This conversion comes when you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. There are to many scriptures in the bible that commands us to come to Christ for me to deny this. Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. For a person to believe in regeneration and not to believe in conversion goes back to the Indian riding the horse scenario. For a Indian or a black man in the deepest Africa to live on this earth in a secluded place without any knowledge of God and Christ and then be regenerated but not understanding what has happened to him and die and go to heaven is to mistic for me. Oh by the way what does happen to him ? is his life changed ? Does he leave off killing his enemies, does he leave off stealing horses or pigs from other tribes ? These different beliefs will always be excepted by some a rejected by others as long as time last. Some believe Apostle Paul was saved on the road to Damascus because the Lord told Ananias of Paul, behold he prayeth and others believe that Paul was saved when he received his sight and was filled with the Holy Ghost.

to tell you the truth, I personally dont know what happens to Indians.....actually I havent given that much thought mostly cause thats way in the past so I really dont care. But if you are asking me if they changed their behavior, yea they probably did (to some degree)...now if your asking me if they do the Lordship Salvation thing ....probably not so much.

But now look at this, I had a sister who had Cerebral Palsy all her life which precluded her from being capable of understanding most things (much less the bible)....so would you rest in saying she should be relegated to hell?

 

[salzer mtn]

to tell you the truth, I personally dont know what happens to Indians.....actually I havent given that much thought mostly cause thats way in the past so I really dont care. But if you are asking me if they changed their behavior, yea they probably did (to some degree)...now if your asking me if they do the Lordship Salvation thing ....probably not so much.

But now look at this, I had a sister who had Cerebral Palsy all her life which precluded her from being capable of understanding most things (much less the bible)....so would you rest in saying she should be relegated to hell?

This is your whole problem, you are basing your whole belief system on your sister and whether babies go to hell or not, but the Redman you could care less about. I could get caught up as you are by babies in the Indian thing because they are my people and be just like you are. The truth is, the judge of all the earth shall do right. That is where you should leave it and move on. Also Deut 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever. There are some things God will not reveal to us this side of the grave, I accept this because I know the judge of all the earth shall do right. Also who hath known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor ? Canst thou by searching find out God ? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection ? Job 11:7 If we knew every detail about God, we would be gods.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is your whole problem, you are basing your whole belief system on your sister and whether babies go to hell or not, but the Redman you could care less about. I could get caught up as you are by babies in the Indian thing because they are my people and be just like you are. The truth is, the judge of all the earth shall do right. That is where you should leave it and move on. Also Deut 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever. There are some things God will not reveal to us this side of the grave, I accept this because I know the judge of all the earth shall do right. Also who hath known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor ? Canst thou by searching find out God ? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection ? Job 11:7 If we knew every detail about God, we would be gods.

Hey chief, i know Im saved & I know that kids & those who dont get the opportunity to hear the gospel are saved (if they were provided mercy by God). My objection is to the jackasses who run hard and fast & legalistic-ally subjugate souls to hell. And you want to know why I wont let it go.....because a freaken Presbyterian Pastor told me that my kid was in hell.......but that was cause he wasn't baptized in infantcy by the Holy Calvinistic Covenant Baptistery Club of "Im Saved & You Arent" Crew. Yea so thats right, I got a bone to pick with that ilk. You got a problem with that....tough.

 

[pinoybaptist]

IF a sinner has not received jesus thru faith, how can they be saved though, as the bible is very clear that we preach/teach jesus to sinners, and they receive him unto salvation?

Again, the salvation you are addressing is gospel salvation, which is a discipleship of those whom Christ called out to a congregation.
Interestingly, this was one of those addressed by our pastor this morning in his sermon.
In his view, there is only ONE salvation, which is the salvation wrought by Christ on the cross for all the elect in time, and covenanted to by the Great One-in-Three, Jehovah God, with Himself (the three Persons), in eternity past.
Time salvation is that aspect of One salvation which is IN RELATION to eternal salvation, wherein those so-called and so-gathered into a congregation IN TIME, before Him, are discipled on how to behave here in time as pilgrims on a journey home, in order for them not to miss out on the blessings of eternal life here in time.
Whether or not they hear, heed, or turn into deed, those instructions however, does not affect their eternal standing with God.

So would you say that PB view all of the elect will get to heaven, as that is promise of god towards them, but some may or may not get "saved" while here on earth?

The practical fact is that not all of the elect will get to hear about the good news of their salvation, and come under discipleship.
This was as true of Christ's time here on earth, as it is today.

 

[Rippon]

I know that kids & those who dont get the opportunity to hear the gospel are saved (if they were provided mercy by God).

You do not know any such thing. Those that don't get the "opportunity to hear the gospel" are under the jurisdiction of Romans 1 and 2.

 

[Rippon]

This is your whole problem, you are basing your whole belief system on your sister and whether babies go to hell or not.The truth is, the judge of all the earth shall do right. That is where you should leave it and move on. Also Deut 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever. There are some things God will not reveal to us this side of the grave, I accept this because I know the judge of all the earth shall do right. Also who hath known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor ? Canst thou by searching find out God ? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection ? Job 11:7 If we knew every detail about God, we would be gods.

Amen, salzer mtm.

I have been bringing up Deut. 29:29 to EW&F, but he is ignoring its import time and time again.

 

[Rippon]

Listen pal...you go to your church and I will go to mine. Calvinism doesnt cut it for me, it makes no provisions for the innocent....it doesn't see the mercy of God and that I reject.

What? Your church doesn't believe in Deut. 29:29? I wasn't speaking of Calvinism or "my church" in my post at all. You make up things that are not there. You need to believe what Deut. 29:29 says. And if you do believe it your complaints would dissipate. If the Lord of all does right then you don't have to worry, murmur, fume and fuss as you do so often.