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Private prayer language
- Thread starter Thomas Helwys
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Lets stick to the scriptures and the OP! Is speaking to God, prayer?
yes, but so is thinking prayers to Him in your mind, without talking, for he knows all things!
I would say I believed the misinterpretation of it before! I am now walking in what He says I can! You have to ignore that speaking to God is prayer. Blessing with the spirit is prayer! Giving thanks is prayer!
How can we bless something that is not for today, and that God said would cease away though?
So when he calls tongues speaking to God...isn't that prayer?yes, but so is thinking prayers to Him in your mind, without talking, for he knows all things!
How can we bless something that is not for today, and that God said would cease away though?
But he did not say it ceased! Man says it has ceased!
But he did not say it ceased! Man says it has ceased!
there were no personal prayer tongues, all were given in the contex of use in a service, so that function no longer happening!
Two things:In some sense, yes!
Again, it is faith! What did Jesus say about others than the disciples casting out devils?
Mark 9:39 Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Matt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
We already know which verse you ascribe to; what I wish you would do is tell us your understanding of Matthew 7:23 and how to tell the difference between today's "pentecostal" Christians (those who should not be forbidden, and those who do the same things but Christ says they work iniquity).
Exactly. And he uses the statement that if he spoke in a tongue of angels, without love it would be unprofitable. He then carries this idea over into chapter 14.In 1 Cor. 13 he is explaining that without love nothing you do is profitable! He goes to the extreme to explain it with his illustrations! Without love nothing is profitable
Don't you see? Without love, there is no understanding. And since we all agree that tongues are a sign for unbelievers, without understanding we're not showing love.
Is it the Holy Spirit praying through you, or is it your spirit praying?I trust the Holy Spirit that is praying through me! I can pray with my own understanding AND I can pray with my spirit! It is with our spirit that we are praying.
If it's the Holy Spirit, then you must answer the question: Why is God praying to Himself through you?
If it's your spirit, then you must ask: Why do you not understand your own spirit?
Where are we encouraged to use a private prayer language? Where are we told to covet tongues, or a private prayer language?We are warned about the use in the assembly without the interpretation!
You're going to try to say 1 Cor 14:28; but that is not an instruction to pray to ourselves. It is an instruction of what to do when the gift of tongues is improperly used (i.e., no interpreter). It is an instruction of what to do in the assembly, not alone.
Now you're just not making sense.So are you saying that in 1 Cor. 14 is not using it? He is speaking of tongues!
You started down the road to use Isaiah 28:11-12 as a justification for speaking in tongues being a refreshing of the spirit; there is absolutely NO scripture to support that. Further, Isaiah 28:12 ends with "yet they would not hear," which supports everyone's conclusion that tongues are a sign for unbelievers, not for personal private use.YOU
Unless you pray in the spirit this will be hard to explain. If you look at Acts 2,10 they are praising God, magnyfing God in tongues!
In 1 Cor. 14:14 it says our mind is unfruitful. We do not understand what we are saying. It is not unfruitful to our spirit!
How I am edified alone? Self is not edified...our spirit is! I know that the Holy Spirit that is praying through me is praying God's perfect will! I can pray for the interpretation and I receive it!
Let me ask you a question. In Isaiah 28:11,12 What is the refreshing speaking of in verse 12 when it says "THIS is the rest"? It refers back to vs. 11.
ME
But look at at verse 12 again, especially how it ends: "yet they would not hear."
Even this passage talks about tongues being {a sign} for unbelievers! Not for self!
(corrected for clarity; you then went on to point out that tongues are a sign for unbelievers, that unbelievers cannot manifest sign gifts)
ME
...look at Isaiah 28:12 again, and consider carefully that this passage does not encourage a private prayer language, but states what is said over and over in scripture: tongues are a sign for unbelievers. So Isaiah 28:12 cannot be used in the context/manner with which you attempted to use it.
By your question -- "So are you saying that in 1 Cor. 14 is not using it?" -- do I mean that in 1 Cor 14, he is not using a private prayer language, yes, I most assuredly am saying that.
But you do agree that tongues is praying in the spirit, right?there were no personal prayer tongues, all were given in the contex of use in a service, so that function no longer happening!
YOu do agree that tongues is speaking to God, prayer, right?
You do agree that tongues is giving thanks well, right?
YOU just do not agree that they are for today, right?
But you do agree that tongues is praying in the spirit, right?
YOu do agree that tongues is speaking to God, prayer, right?
You do agree that tongues is giving thanks well, right?
YOU just do not agree that they are for today, right?
believe that tongues were real languages that the HS allowed someone who did not know that language to speak forth, and that they were given to the local church as a way to have God speak directly to the saints, but that they ceased to be needed when the bible was completed, and when john passed away!
they were used is a church setting, not to say grace over your lunch!
tamborine lady
Active Member
Most people who do not believe in tongues call it gibberish. After reading a lot of these posts, I have decided that sometimes, even when I understand every word, it is still gibberish. Not tongues themselves but the explanations against.
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Good question! I love a challenge! But really do not have an answer for this! Let me pray about it study it out and get back to you!Two things:
Mark 9:39 Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Matt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
We already know which verse you ascribe to; what I wish you would do is tell us your understanding of Matthew 7:23 and how to tell the difference between today's "pentecostal" Christians (those who should not be forbidden, and those who do the same things but Christ says they work iniquity).
From what I gather from your question... you are putting those that believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the same catagory as those he says works iniquity, is that correct?
So are you saying that on Acts 2 they were not showing love? I am not following where you are going with this! Who are you saying does not understand, the unbelievers? So how are you saying it is a sign to unbelievers?Exactly. And he uses the statement that if he spoke in a tongue of angels, without love it would be unprofitable. He then carries this idea over into chapter 14.
Don't you see? Without love, there is no understanding. And since we all agree that tongues are a sign for unbelievers, without understanding we're not showing love.
My spirit prays...the Holy Spirit gives the utterance.Is it the Holy Spirit praying through you, or is it your spirit praying?
Because it eliminates the possibility of selfishness entering our prayer life. If I pray with my own mind/understanding I could be praying against God's will or selfishly. THe HOly Spirit gives us the language/utterance of His perfect will.If it's the Holy Spirit, then you must answer the question: Why is God praying to Himself through you?
In Rom. 8:26 it says we know not what we SHOULD pray. He does not say we do not know HOW to pray. Didn't Jesus pray to the Father? Isn't Jesus God?
My born again spirit? Do you really know or understand all about your spirit? I am still learning through the guidiance of the Holy Spirit.If it's your spirit, then you must ask: Why do you not understand your own spirit?
Do you believe tongue is praying in the spirit as Paul says in chapter 14?Where are we encouraged to use a private prayer language? Where are we told to covet tongues, or a private prayer language?
I am going to ask you as I have asked others...where does the Word of God limit ANY kind of prayer? If we can pray with our understanding/mind in private, why would you limit this?You're going to try to say 1 Cor 14:28; but that is not an instruction to pray to ourselves. It is an instruction of what to do when the gift of tongues is improperly used (i.e., no interpreter). It is an instruction of what to do in the assembly, not alone.
I was referring to 1 Cor. 14:21. Are you saying that this is not using tongues as an example?Now you're just not making sense.
You stated that Is. was not a reference to tongues...but He uses Is. in 1 Cor. 14.
Are you saying now that the unbelievers did not hear them in Acts 2? You are not making sense with where you are going with this!You started down the road to use Isaiah 28:11-12 as a justification for speaking in tongues being a refreshing of the spirit; there is absolutely NO scripture to support that. Further, Isaiah 28:12 ends with "yet they would not hear," which supports everyone's conclusion that tongues are a sign for unbelievers, not for personal private use.
I am saying that 1 Cor. 14 used Isaiah to get a point across concerning a sign to the unbelievers.By your question -- "So are you saying that in 1 Cor. 14 is not using it?" -- do I mean that in 1 Cor 14, he is not using a private prayer language, yes, I most assuredly am saying that.
Most people who do not believe in tongues call it gibberish. After reading a lot of these posts, I have decided that sometimes, even when I understand every word, it is still gibberish. Not tongues themselves but the explanations against.
no need to use "gibberish" explaiin away the tongues for today, for the bible CLEARLY teaches they once were, prperformed a function, no longer required/needed, and ceased!
Can you not answer a straight question with a yes or no?believe that tongues were real languages that the HS allowed someone who did not know that language to speak forth, and that they were given to the local church as a way to have God speak directly to the saints, but that they ceased to be needed when the bible was completed, and when john passed away!
they were used is a church setting, not to say grace over your lunch!
You do realize even after the Bible was complete...it was still withheld from most people!
Can you not answer a straight question with a yes or no?
You do realize even after the Bible was complete...it was still withheld from most people!
the bible was already being circulated around the local churches, inthe sense of the letters of the Apostles during their lifetimes!
So once completed and intact, the HS did not need to have any more Apsotles/prophets/Tongues etc to express what the lord hasd to say, for it was written down ALl that God has for us now!
Oh come now! Look at your history and the history of the Charismatic movement.I would say I believed the misinterpretation of it before! I am now walking in what He says I can! You have to ignore that speaking to God is prayer. Blessing with the spirit is prayer! Giving thanks is prayer!
You belong to a church that is Baptist. It walked in "truth" for a number of years. Then for some reason it went into error and became Charismatic, and so did you. Thus you belong to a "Charismatic Baptist" church. Am I correct? It is the church that is in error now, not previously.
Now look at the history of the Charismatic movement, a movement that started at the beginning of the 20th century which I gave you a link to, as well as other information. It has its roots in paganism, and even in the occult. How can this be of God? Yet you attribute 1800 years of truth to unbelief instead of the roots of your beliefs to paganism which you now believe in.
You need to look at these things with a clear mind. You are putting your experiences first and trying to justify them with a misinterpretation of the Word of God. That is evident to everyone here but yourself.
You said:
"You have to ignore that speaking to God is prayer. Blessing with the spirit is prayer! Giving thanks is prayer!"
I don't ignore it. It is wrong if it is done in tongues. Paul condemned it in the context of tongues, for there was no understanding. You don't have understanding either. The gift is a gift of languages. If you can't tell me the language you are speaking in then you know it is wrong.
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Oh come now! Look at your history and the history of the Charismatic movement.
You belong to a church that is Baptist. It walked in "truth" for a number of years. Then for some reason it went into error and became Charismatic, and so did you. Thus you belong to a "Charismatic Baptist" church. Am I correct? It is the church that is in error now, not previously.
Now look at the history of the Charismatic movement, a movement that started at the beginning of the 20th century which I gave you a link to, as well as other information. It has its roots in paganism, and even in the occult. How can this be of God? Yet you attribute 1800 years of truth to unbelief instead of the roots of your beliefs to paganism which you now believe in.
You need to look at these things with a clear mind. You are putting your experiences first and trying to justify them with a misinterpretation of the Word of God. That is evident to everyone here but yourself.
You said:
"You have to ignore that speaking to God is prayer. Blessing with the spirit is prayer! Giving thanks is prayer!"
I don't ignore it. It is wrong if it is done in tongues. Paul condemned it in the context of tongues, for there was no understanding. You don't have understanding either. The gift is a gift of languages. If you can't tell me the language you are speaking in then you know it is wrong.
Wouldn't you agree that the greater fault lies with her pastor and the teachers/elders at that baptist church, for they have chosen to led the flock astray?
THe only thing different is that we do not deny the power of the Holy Spirit! We believe the Holy Spirit still manifest Himself as he did since Jesus sent Him on the Day of Pentecost! We stop denying what the Word says!Oh come now! Look at your history and the history of the Charismatic movement.
You belong to a church that is Baptist. It walked in "truth" for a number of years. Then for some reason it went into error and became Charismatic, and so did you. Thus you belong to a "Charismatic Baptist" church. Am I correct? It is the church that is in error now, not previously.
First off there can be no valid Christian doctrine without experience. Jesus spoke of a balanced life, a need to operate in Spirit and truth! Your tradition and theories are often lifted higher than Scripture. Cessationism being one of them!You need to look at these things with a clear mind. You are putting your experiences first and trying to justify them with a misinterpretation of the Word of God. That is evident to everyone here but yourself.
But back to the OP....praying in the spirit/ speaking to God/ giving thanks is prayer!
Or...they led us back into the presence of God! A balanced worship service..Spirit and Truth!Wouldn't you agree that the greater fault lies with her pastor and the teachers/elders at that baptist church, for they have chosen to led the flock astray?
Did you ever get around to answering my questions with a yes or no?
Again your opinion!the bible was already being circulated around the local churches, inthe sense of the letters of the Apostles during their lifetimes!
So once completed and intact, the HS did not need to have any more Apsotles/prophets/Tongues etc to express what the lord hasd to say, for it was written down ALl that God has for us now!
YOu know why you can not answer my questions? Because if you answer them truthfully this debate would be over!
Again your opinion!
YOu know why you can not answer my questions? Because if you answer them truthfully this debate would be over!
Why was not answered/ No personal prayer language found in the bible as a HS gift, and the tongues were real languages, used to speak to local assembly from the Lord, but not needed any more, as we have the bible for that?
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