Has never happened in the history of all of creation. It is a silly and sophomoric statement.
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Private prayer language
- Thread starter Thomas Helwys
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Has never happened in the history of all of creation. It is a silly and sophomoric statement.
Well the Bible tells us different! If we knew the language or understood what we were saying...WHY DOES HE TELL US TO PRAY FOR AN INTERPRETATION?Has never happened in the history of all of creation. It is a silly and sophomoric statement.
Well the Bible tells us different! If we knew the language or understood what we were saying...WHY DOES HE TELL US TO PRAY FOR AN INTERPRETATION?
The Bible tells us nothing of the sort. Please provide scripture for your claim so we can see the context.
1 COR. 14:13 "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue PRAY THAT HE MAY INTERPRET"The Bible tells us nothing of the sort. Please provide scripture for your claim so we can see the context.
The church was the Corinthian Church. The time was in the first century.1 COR. 14:13 "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue PRAY THAT HE MAY INTERPRET"
Tongues always has purpose:
The purpose was: revelation for the word was incomplete; as a sign to the Jews; as a sign of an apostle and/or his message. Most of these signs had to be present.
Tongues/languages, are always spoken never prayed. They are always public, never private. They are always for edification for the assembly never for the individual.
Corinth, as a first century port city had many different ethnically diverse people travel through it. Some would come to their service. If, for example, some Spanish speaking people came that had difficulty with the Greek language, the Lord may give the gift of the Spanish language to an individual in the church. At the same time he would give the gift of interpretation to someone else to interpret it back into Greek for the rest of the congregation. If there was no interpreter the person with the gift of tongues was to sit down and keep quiet. That was the rule of thumb. That way checks and balances were put in place. One would know if the one given the gift of tongues would be legitimate because God, at the same time, would give a gift of interpretation to another.
Thus "pray that he may interpret." If there is no interpretation for the rest of the congregation, sit down and keep quiet even if you have a legitimate gift. The gift was never gibberish. It would be a foreign language that you would recognize as such. If God gave you the gift of Spanish you would recognize the gift that God gave you. God doesn't not give gibberish. That is not a gift of God. It has another source. The true gift of languages the speaker knows what he is speaking and why. He is not confused. He always has control of both mind and spirit.
You say a lot and miss the point! THe one speaking in tongues does not know what he is saying..otherwise he would not have to pray for an interpretation.The church was the Corinthian Church. The time was in the first century.
Tongues always has purpose:
The purpose was: revelation for the word was incomplete; as a sign to the Jews; as a sign of an apostle and/or his message. Most of these signs had to be present.
Tongues/languages, are always spoken never prayed. They are always public, never private. They are always for edification for the assembly never for the individual.
Corinth, as a first century port city had many different ethnically diverse people travel through it. Some would come to their service. If, for example, some Spanish speaking people came that had difficulty with the Greek language, the Lord may give the gift of the Spanish language to an individual in the church. At the same time he would give the gift of interpretation to someone else to interpret it back into Greek for the rest of the congregation. If there was no interpreter the person with the gift of tongues was to sit down and keep quiet. That was the rule of thumb. That way checks and balances were put in place. One would know if the one given the gift of tongues would be legitimate because God, at the same time, would give a gift of interpretation to another.
Thus "pray that he may interpret." If there is no interpretation for the rest of the congregation, sit down and keep quiet even if you have a legitimate gift. The gift was never gibberish. It would be a foreign language that you would recognize as such. If God gave you the gift of Spanish you would recognize the gift that God gave you. God doesn't not give gibberish. That is not a gift of God. It has another source. The true gift of languages the speaker knows what he is speaking and why. He is not confused. He always has control of both mind and spirit.
But this thread is about a prayer language...so now back to topic....
You say a lot and miss the point! THe one speaking in tongues does not know what he is saying..otherwise he would not have to pray for an interpretation.
But this thread is about a prayer language...so now back to topic....
paul was adressing that tongues and interpretations were to be done in a local church NOT saying when you are at home, pray to have the english revealtion of your tongue!
1 COR. 14:13 "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue PRAY THAT HE MAY INTERPRET"
Well looking at it in context we can see that these good folks werew faking it with gibberish as well:
1Co 14:9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.
Thomas Helwys
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The church was the Corinthian Church. The time was in the first century.
Tongues always has purpose:
The purpose was: revelation for the word was incomplete; as a sign to the Jews; as a sign of an apostle and/or his message. Most of these signs had to be present.
Tongues/languages, are always spoken never prayed. They are always public, never private. They are always for edification for the assembly never for the individual.
Corinth, as a first century port city had many different ethnically diverse people travel through it. Some would come to their service. If, for example, some Spanish speaking people came that had difficulty with the Greek language, the Lord may give the gift of the Spanish language to an individual in the church. At the same time he would give the gift of interpretation to someone else to interpret it back into Greek for the rest of the congregation. If there was no interpreter the person with the gift of tongues was to sit down and keep quiet. That was the rule of thumb. That way checks and balances were put in place. One would know if the one given the gift of tongues would be legitimate because God, at the same time, would give a gift of interpretation to another.
Thus "pray that he may interpret." If there is no interpretation for the rest of the congregation, sit down and keep quiet even if you have a legitimate gift. The gift was never gibberish. It would be a foreign language that you would recognize as such. If God gave you the gift of Spanish you would recognize the gift that God gave you. God doesn't not give gibberish. That is not a gift of God. It has another source. The true gift of languages the speaker knows what he is speaking and why. He is not confused. He always has control of both mind and spirit.
This is exactly right. The only one who has a"private prayer language" is the one who has the gift of tongues, which today is either extremely rare or non-existent. This stuff that charismatics claim everyone can and should have is not a private prayer language or any kind of language but merely vain babblings of troubled and deceived minds for which there is absolutely zero scriptural support. In fact, it is not only non-scriptural, it is anti-scriptural.
Please don't tell me that you read my entire post, and then tell me that I am the one "that missed the point." That just tells me that you are unteachable if not totally brainwashed.You say a lot and miss the point! THe one speaking in tongues does not know what he is saying..otherwise he would not have to pray for an interpretation.
But this thread is about a prayer language...so now back to topic....
The gift is a gift of languages.
If I have a gift of Hebrew then I would be able to speak in Hebrew, or a gift of Greek then I would be able to speak in Greek, understand the Greek I am speaking in, think in the language and be able to express myself thoughtfully and intelligently.
The reason for the interpretation was to interpret back into the original language. In our day and age if a missionary were given a gift of languages he would not need an interpreter, because:
he would be in a nation where everyone spoke the same foreign language.
However,
Revelation has ceased.
There are no more apostles.
The gifts have ceased.
There are no more Jews to whom tongues was a sign.
Judgment came upon the Jews as it was prophesied.
All these things have come to pass. The gifts have ceased. There is no scripture to back up the gift of languages as a private prayer language. Every person that had the gift of languages knew what language they were speaking. They did not speak out of their own ignorance. God is not a God of confusion. Where do you get this madness from?
YOu like others always leave out this part...wonder why?Well looking at it in context we can see that these good folks werew faking it with gibberish as well:
1Co 14:9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.
For thou giveth thanks well! vs. 17
In context he is correcting them praying in the spirit (vs. 14 calls it praying with your spirit/tongues) without interpretation!
Paul fully endorsed the private use of tongues by saying that if someone speaks publicly in tongues but the interpretation is not given to anyone, then the speaker should sit down and continue to speak quietly to God in tongues. vs. 28Please don't tell me that you read my entire post, and then tell me that I am the one "that missed the point." That just tells me that you are unteachable if not totally brainwashed.
The gift is a gift of languages.
If I have a gift of Hebrew then I would be able to speak in Hebrew, or a gift of Greek then I would be able to speak in Greek, understand the Greek I am speaking in, think in the language and be able to express myself thoughtfully and intelligently.
The reason for the interpretation was to interpret back into the original language. In our day and age if a missionary were given a gift of languages he would not need an interpreter, because:
he would be in a nation where everyone spoke the same foreign language.
However,
Revelation has ceased.
There are no more apostles.
The gifts have ceased.
There are no more Jews to whom tongues was a sign.
Judgment came upon the Jews as it was prophesied.
All these things have come to pass. The gifts have ceased. There is no scripture to back up the gift of languages as a private prayer language. Every person that had the gift of languages knew what language they were speaking. They did not speak out of their own ignorance. God is not a God of confusion. Where do you get this madness from?
1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.Paul fully endorsed the private use of tongues by saying that if someone speaks publicly in tongues but the interpretation is not given to anyone, then the speaker should sit down and continue to speak quietly to God in tongues. vs. 28
There is not one word here about praying in tongues; not one word.
Why did you deliberately add to the word of God "in tongues" when it is not there??
How deceitful can one be with the Word of God!!
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YOu like others always leave out this part...wonder why?
For thou giveth thanks well! vs. 17
In context he is correcting them praying in the spirit (vs. 14 calls it praying with your spirit/tongues) without interpretation!
I didn't leave anything out. It just doesn't mean what you want it to. Neither does it change the context of my previous verse.
The entire context is that they should stay away from tongues in the service.
1Co 14:17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up.
1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
1Co 14:19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
1Co 14:20 Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature.
1Co 14:21 In the Law it is written, "By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord."
1Co 14:22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.
Well you need to comprehend that speaking to God is PRAYER!1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
There is not one word here about praying in tongues; not one word.
Why did you deliberately add to the word of God "in tongues" when it is not there??
How deceitful can one be with the Word of God!!
No, it is not saying stay away from tongues! It is correcting the way tongues is to be done in the service! Without an interpreter we are to be silent and speak to God!I didn't leave anything out. It just doesn't mean what you want it to. Neither does it change the context of my previous verse.
The entire context is that they should stay away from tongues in the service.
"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue." (1 Corinthians 14:18-19)
Paul was thankful that he spoke in tongues more than anyone else. This is a reference to the private form of tongues, because in the very next sentence Paul said, "But in the church..." Therefore, Paul spoke in tongues more than anyone else outside of church, praising God privately in the Spirit. Paul was thankful that he spoke in tongues frequently because he had a high regard for the personal benefit that people can receive through the private use of tongues (recall that a few verses earlier Paul said that he would like for everyone to speak in tongues).
Paul said that in church he would rather speak words of instruction (which people can understand), rather than an uninterpreted message in tongues (which people can't understand). In other words, it doesn't edify the church congregation when we use the private form of tongues in a public fashion (as if it's a message from God).
Paul was thankful that he spoke in tongues more than anyone else. This is a reference to the private form of tongues, because in the very next sentence Paul said, "But in the church..." Therefore, Paul spoke in tongues more than anyone else outside of church, praising God privately in the Spirit. Paul was thankful that he spoke in tongues frequently because he had a high regard for the personal benefit that people can receive through the private use of tongues (recall that a few verses earlier Paul said that he would like for everyone to speak in tongues).
Paul said that in church he would rather speak words of instruction (which people can understand), rather than an uninterpreted message in tongues (which people can't understand). In other words, it doesn't edify the church congregation when we use the private form of tongues in a public fashion (as if it's a message from God).
No, it is not saying stay away from tongues! It is correcting the way tongues is to be done in the service! Without an interpreter we are to be silent and speak to God!
Goodness, this is elementary. He is not encouraging a prayer language the entire chapter is condemning the use. He is not saying if no interpreter is there then speak to God, he is saying "Hey, when you talk gibberish and fake it no one can understand you."
1Co 14:9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.
Without an interpretation in any language it would come across not intellegible to me! I do not know spanish...so that is not intelligible to me!Goodness, this is elementary. He is not encouraging a prayer language the entire chapter is condemning the use. He is not saying if no interpreter is there then speak to God, he is saying "Hey, when you talk gibberish and fake it no one can understand you."
1Co 14:9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.
Bottom line in chapter 14 is correction of the use of praying in the spirit... in church... without an interpretation... should not be done!
Now if you would look at how he explains tongues as...
vs. 2 speaking to God!
vs. 13 If you speak in tongues PRAY that you may interpret
vs. 14 If I pray in tongue...my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful ( I do not understand what I am saying unless God gives me the interpretation..which happens when you pray for it vs. 13)
vs. 15 Is praying with both..with the spirit and with the understanding.
vs. 16 Bless with the spirit/giving thanks...is praying!
vs. 17 You give thanks well!
vs. 18 Paul speaks with tongues more than all...but in church he would rather speak where everyone can understand him.
vs. 26 He is not denying tongues in church...just do it in order!
vs. 28 If there is no interpreter we are to keep silent and speak to God (speaking to God silently is a silent prayer).
vs. 39 Forbid not to speak in tongues!
Your verses and what is actually in scripture are two different things:
The idea that Paul is speaking of a private prayer language in the chapter is contradictory to the fact that Paul is correcting tongues in the worship service.
In other words gibberish
This verse is designed to show that the faculty of speaking intelligibly, and to the edification of the church, is of more value than the power of speaking a foreign language. The reason is, that however valuable may be the endowment in itself, and however important the truth which he may utter, yet it is as if he spoke to God only. No one could understand him.
In other words I will speak intelligent things rather than gibberish.
In other words "he does not know what you are saying" pretty self explanatory.
Paul was being kind here to their intent but it does not mean he agreed with it. In fact the context of the passage is otherwise.
Paul spoke a number of other known languages. He was very educated.
So you believe Paul is speaking of a heavenly tongue here and you believe he is saying that everyone in this church speaks in tongues?
If there be none present who can give the proper sense of this Hebrew reading and speaking, then let him keep silence, and not occupy the time of the Church, by speaking in a language which only himself can understand.
Do not suppose that the power of speaking foreign languages is useless, or is to be despised, or that it is to be prohibited. “In its own place” it is a valuable endowment; and on proper occasions the talent should be exercised; see in 1Co_14:22.
1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
The idea that Paul is speaking of a private prayer language in the chapter is contradictory to the fact that Paul is correcting tongues in the worship service.
1Co 14:9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.
In other words gibberish
1Co 14:13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret.
This verse is designed to show that the faculty of speaking intelligibly, and to the edification of the church, is of more value than the power of speaking a foreign language. The reason is, that however valuable may be the endowment in itself, and however important the truth which he may utter, yet it is as if he spoke to God only. No one could understand him.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.
In other words I will speak intelligent things rather than gibberish.
1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?
In other words "he does not know what you are saying" pretty self explanatory.
1Co 14:17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up.
Paul was being kind here to their intent but it does not mean he agreed with it. In fact the context of the passage is otherwise.
not being built up.
1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
Paul spoke a number of other known languages. He was very educated.
1Co 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
So you believe Paul is speaking of a heavenly tongue here and you believe he is saying that everyone in this church speaks in tongues?
1Co 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.
If there be none present who can give the proper sense of this Hebrew reading and speaking, then let him keep silence, and not occupy the time of the Church, by speaking in a language which only himself can understand.
1Co 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
Do not suppose that the power of speaking foreign languages is useless, or is to be despised, or that it is to be prohibited. “In its own place” it is a valuable endowment; and on proper occasions the talent should be exercised; see in 1Co_14:22.
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