Proof of Calvinism

[Van]

Reply to Winman,

Van, I normally agree with most things you say, but I think when God says he will remember our sins no more it means he will put our sins out of his mind, he will not think about them anymore. This is no different than when we forgive one another, it doesn't mean we can't call to rememberance something someone has done, but we choose to put it out of our mind and not think about it anymore.

I agree with the caveat that when God puts something out of His mind forever, it is consigned to oblivion, and can never be brought to mind again. Otherwise God would not be keeping His New Covenant promise.

 

[Van]

P4t

Telling you that you are unteachable isn't a personal attack, it is rather an empathetic and factual statement describing you perfectly. If you call "reproofs of instruction" an "attack", you're in more serious error that I've imagined, and remain more unteachable in spirit than what we first thought.

Several on this thread, even a non-cal have called you out on your error.

Truth is truth, folks, and an attack is an attack.

 

[jbh28]

Therefore, by logical necessity, total omniscience is unbiblical. Inherent omniscience is the biblical doctrine.

ah, so it's not biblical, but more "logical." So instead of accepting that God knows everything, like the Scriptures teach, we have hear a logical conclusion and not a biblical one.

Van has been shown, but refuses to listen. Remember means bring to mind. It does not mean that the knowledge of the event goes away. That's making a huge assumption that is not based on what the Bible has. Did God remember the sins of David, or did he remember then no more? Of course he remembered them no more, but i'm sure God can read the Bible and read about David's sin. Either that, or I know something God doesn't know. God doesn't forget. Van has chosen to attempt to promote his false doctrine by teaching that God is forgetful. What a shame!

No actual effort has been made to defend the false doctrine, only to claim it is true and attack me for not accepting what is unbiblical.

No body is attacking you. We are attacking your false doctrine.

Why would God say now I know, if He already knew? You have no answer, except to say God did not really mean what He said. Thus you let man-made doctrine nullify scripture after scripture after scripture.

No, we read beyond just a singular definition of a term. It's not teaching that God didn't already know(different use of the word) what Abraham would do. He was that know Abraham has proven himself in visible form. God now had observed (know) what Abraham would do, not learn what Abraham would do. That interpretation contradicts other Scripture.

 

[jbh28]

I agree with the caveat that when God puts something out of His mind forever, it is consigned to oblivion, and can never be brought to mind again. Otherwise God would not be keeping His New Covenant promise.

Again, this would mean I have knowledge of something God doesn't.

 

[Skandelon]

Commentaries, Van. Please provide some scholars who support this view....preferably baptist ones, so I have a good reason to keep this discussion open in a Baptist Only Forum.

 

[Van]

I have demonstrated, to my satisfaction, that God remembering our sins no more forever, means He puts what He has foregiven, the infraction paid by Christ, out of His mind. Therefore, by logical necessity, total omniscience is unbiblical. Inherent omniscience is the biblical doctrine.

I have shown that the verses that say God is all knowing refer to God knowing everything about the hearts of those in view, such as Peter and the other disciples in John 21.

No actual effort has been made to defend the false doctrine, only to claim it is true and attack me for not accepting what is unbiblical.

If God devises plans, then He alters what would have occurred otherwise. Why would God devise a plan if His action did not alter the future? You have no answer!!

Why would God say now I know, if He already knew? You have no answer, except to say God did not really mean what He said. Thus you let man-made doctrine nullify scripture after scripture after scripture.

Still waiting for answers, but expecting more evasions.

 

[preacher4truth]

His teaching is not Baptist. If his teaching were Baptist, I'd become anti-Baptist immediately if not sooner. He's not even close to teaching truth here. This is not Baptist doctrine.

 

[12strings]

Apology to Van:

Van: I want to apologize for my most recent post. It was mean-spirited and simply poking fun at you, which was inappropriate. I got caught up in the moment and wanted to join the attack, and I apologize. I hope you can forgive me.

My earlier posts were not meant to be mean, but merely to try to make sense of, and understand, what you were saying. I still think your view is inconsistent and in error, but that does not excuse ridiculing you.

I will not post anymore on this particular thread...


Hoping for peace,
-Andy

 

[jbh28]

Apology to Van:

Van: I want to apologize for my most recent post. It was mean-spirited and simply poking fun at you, which was inappropriate. I got caught up in the moment and wanted to join the attack, and I apologize. I hope you can forgive me.

My earlier posts were not meant to be mean, but merely to try to make sense of, and understand, what you were saying. I still think your view is inconsistent and in error, but that does not excuse ridiculing you.

I will not post anymore on this particular thread...


Hoping for peace,
-Andy

There was nothing wrong with your post, at least the last one you did. Getting upset is understandable when someone says God is forgetful.

 

[jbh28]

Commentaries, Van. Please provide some scholars who support this view....preferably baptist ones, so I have a good reason to keep this discussion open in a Baptist Only Forum.

????????????????? Van, you got any?

 

[Van]

I have provided verses that can be googled, and below them are commentaries from several who say God remembers no more means put out of mind, consigned to oblivian.
Lets take Isaiah 38:17

Gill: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back; as loathsome and abominable, and so as not to be seen by him; for though God sees all the sins of his people with his eye of omniscience, and in his providence takes notice of them, and chastises for them, yet not with his eye of avenging justice; because Christ has took them on himself, and made satisfaction for them, and an end of them; they are removed from them as far as the east is from the west, and no more to be seen upon them; nor will they be any more set before his face, or in the light of his countenance; but as they are out of sight they will be out of mind, never more remembered, but forgotten; as what is cast behind the back is seen and remembered no more. The phrase is expressive of the full forgiveness of sins, even of all sins; see Psalm 85:2, the object of God's love is the souls of his people; the instance of it is the delivery of them from the pit of corruption; the evidence of it is the pardon of their sins.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown: cast . behind back-consigned my sins to oblivion. The same phrase occurs (1Ki 14:9; Ne 9:26; Ps 50:17). Contrast Ps 90:8, "Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance."

 

[preacher4truth]

...he's received ample admonitions. We should know what the next step is.

 

[jbh28]

Gill: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back; as loathsome and abominable, and so as not to be seen by him; for though God sees all the sins of his people with his eye of omniscience, and in his providence takes notice of them, and chastises for them, yet not with his eye of avenging justice; because Christ has took them on himself, and made satisfaction for them, and an end of them; they are removed from them as far as the east is from the west, and no more to be seen upon them; nor will they be any more set before his face, or in the light of his countenance; but as they are out of sight they will be out of mind, never more remembered, but forgotten; as what is cast behind the back is seen and remembered no more. The phrase is expressive of the full forgiveness of sins, even of all sins; see Psalm 85:2, the object of God's love is the souls of his people; the instance of it is the delivery of them from the pit of corruption; the evidence of it is the pardon of their sins.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown: cast . behind back-consigned my sins to oblivion. The same phrase occurs (1Ki 14:9; Ne 9:26; Ps 50:17). Contrast Ps 90:8, "Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance."

 

[Van]

Returning to topic, Proof of Calvinism, the proponents offer only fallacies, i.e attacking the person rather than presenting a defense of doctrine.

Total Omniscience is not a Baptist distinctive, but some Baptist organizations say the extremes of Calvinism and Arminianism are unbiblical.

God is all knowing, but all knowing about what? What He chooses to know or everything imaginable. Scripture teaches God is all knowing about what He chooses to know. He can search our hearts and know how we will respond to a given circumstance, such as if we saw Christ's miracles, or He can choose not to search our hearts and test us as He did Abraham and learn how Abraham would respond. Our doctrines must stand up to scripture, and not be defended using either political power or logical fallacies.

 

[Van]

Hi CFI, thanks for your informative post #130, so many extraneous posts were being posted, or my incompetence, led me to miss it. I agree with it except for the Grudem comment that it can be understood to mean God will not use the knowledge against us.

As I posted elsewhere, this does not fly with casting the sin behind Him, or into the sea. The idea is that something associated with our sin, perhaps what was forgiven and paid for by Christ, will be remembered no more, cast into oblivion, put out of mind. Otherwise the inspired word is rewritten to say what it does not say, forgive and I will not hold it against you. That may be true, but that takes away, in my opinion from the full extent of the promise.

 

[Van]

reply to 12 Strings,

Thanks for your post demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit.
I was a tad disappointed by your post 117, but in light of your subsequent behavior, it stands firmly as a testimony to the power of the Holy Spirit.

May God Bless,

Your brother in Christ,

Van

 

[jbh28]

Returning to topic, Proof of Calvinism, the proponents offer only fallacies, i.e attacking the person rather than presenting a defense of doctrine.

Stop crying because everybody disagrees with you. We are not attacking you. Nobody has said "Van is dumb" or something like that. We have attacked the doctrine that you have claimed is biblical. God is all knowing. There is nothing he chooses to not know. How could he know something was there to not know in order to not know it. You've been proven majorly wrong with the "remember no more." Even the commentators disagree with you. They said that God has all knowledge. God still knows that David sinned. It's in the Bible as was pointed out to you. How could God not know it?

Remember, snakes don't eat dust as their food. (Genesis 3:14)

 

[Van]

Reply to JH288

Stop crying because everybody disagrees with you. We are not attacking you. Nobody has said "Van is dumb" or something like that. We have attacked the doctrine that you have claimed is biblical. God is all knowing. There is nothing he chooses to not know. How could he know something was there to not know in order to not know it. You've been proven majorly wrong with the "remember no more." Even the commentators disagree with you. They said that God has all knowledge. God still knows that David sinned. It's in the Bible as was pointed out to you. How could God not know it?

Remember, snakes don't eat dust as their food. (Genesis 3:14)

Now the Calvinist attacks my character and says I am crying when I point out saying someone is unteachable is a personal attack and not a statement of doctrine.

I have provided scripture that says God did not know until He tested Abraham how he would respond. I have quoted commentators who agree God puts the knowledge of sin out of his mind. Yet the Calvinist posts complete fiction with no penalty.

Did you see in references to any specific verses like Isaiah 38:17 to support their false doctrine? Nope.

Folks, God's word is crystal. I am not saying anything that is not widely accepted doctrine, God puts the memory of our sins out of His mind, therefore His knowledge is not total. Simple really. But rather than accept that inherent omniscience is the biblical doctrine, and total omniscience has no support in scripture, only verses ripped out of context, they misrepresent my views and personally attack me.

 

[jbh28]

Now the Calvinist attacks my character and says I am crying when I point out saying someone is unteachable is a personal attack and not a statement of doctrine.

Didn't know you crying was an attack on your character. Of course you whined again. I said nothing of your character. Please don't say I've attacked your character unless I actually do that.

I have provided scripture that says God did not know until He tested Abraham how he would respond.

You provided no Scripture that said he didn't have knowledge of it. You have provided a passages that says "now I know" which I showed you doesn't necessarily mean he didn't have knowledge. you have given it a very limited use of the term. You didn't refute that but instead said something about Scripture that isn't true. Scripture doesn't say he didn't know.

I have quoted commentators who agree God puts the knowledge of sin out of his mind. Yet the Calvinist posts complete fiction with no penalty.

No Calvinist denies that. Please don't say something that isn't true. Also, it's not just Calvinists that disagree with you. We do not deny that He puts it out of his mind. In fact we agree to that statement. It's you that takes it to far and limits God knowledge and makes me know something God doesn't know.

Did you see in references to any specific verses like Isaiah 38:17 to support their false doctrine? Nope.

Isaiah present no problem with any of my doctrine.

Folks, God's word is crystal. I am not saying anything that is not widely accepted doctrine,

LOL, name me a baptist church that would agree with you. Nobody on here agrees with you that God doesn't know everything. Yet you claim it's a "widely accepted doctrine."

God puts the memory of our sins out of His mind, therefore His knowledge is not total. Simple really. But rather than accept that inherent omniscience is the biblical doctrine, and total omniscience has no support in scripture, only verses ripped out of context, they misrepresent my views and personally attack me.

Again, stop the whine about being personally attacked. You are presenting false doctrine and it's that we have attacked. You have presented a limited God, one that I know more than He. Your teaching is false. I'm sure you are a fine person and have great character, but you are teaching false doctrine.

 

[Winman]

My view is that at times God limits himself, as when he wrestled Jacob and Jacob prevailed. I don't know how this could be understood any other way than God limited his strength and power in this specific incidence. And if God can limit his power for whatever purpose he chooses, why couldn't he also limit his omniscience in some circumstances for his own purpose? Thus, God would be sincere when he said, "Now I know" to Abraham.