Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

[Dave G]

Paul in Romans 3 is quoting THE OLD TESTAMENT psalms, he is not presenting a brand new teaching.

I agree.

Romans 3 is about Jews who believed themselves superior to gentiles. And Paul quotes the times when Jews flopped and failed.

With respect, you may wish to read it again :

" What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9 What then? are we better [than they?] No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin. " ( Romans 3:1-9 )


I see Jews being referenced first, then all men.
Jews and Gentiles.
I've bolded the pronouns in case it helps:

" as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 and the way of peace have they not known:
18 there is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin." ( Romans 3:10-20 )


I see all men, not just Jews being spoken of.
Here's some more:

" But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 to declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. " ( Romans 3:21-26 )


Again, I see more than just Jews, but I agree that Paul uses the Jews as an example of "flopping".
I happen to believe that all of us, apart from the grace and power of God, would have done the very same things.


May He make His grace to shine upon you brightly.

 

[37818]

Galatians 5

16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Whoa Paul, Loving God and Loving neighbor is the LAW isn't it?

"If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law."



22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.


Paul gives clear WARNING to believers:

19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


The Law is. Look if you did any of those things, they would put you to death. You are not under that law. WORST you are now under the SPIRIT. The fruit of the SPIRIT OF GOD, The HOLY SPIRIT, is Love.

Doesn't say multiple fruitS. The fruit and core is "he fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control;"

Faith is back there waving.



When asked what Must I do to be saved. Jesus could have said....."Nothing, smokem if you gottem and keep your fingers crossed."

I have a dilemma of trust in Jesus. My faith in Jesus is a big problem. See I heard him say what I need to do to be saved.

So I am totally blind to any other option, loophole and undermine anyone one else cares to present.

He said it, full stop I believe him.

Law:
". . . And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. . . ." -- Deuteronomy 6:5.
". . . thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: . . ." -- Leviticus 19:18.

Grace:
". . . And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.. . ." -- 1 John 3:23.
". . . Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. . . ." -- 1 John 4:7-8.

 

[37818]

Paul in Romans 3 is quoting THE OLD TESTAMENT psalms, he is not presenting a brand new teaching.

.

". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ." -- Romans 3:11.
". . . The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.. . ." -- Psalms 14:2
". . . God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek God.. . ." -- Psalms 53:2.

Paul by the Holy Spirit write instead the conclusion:
". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ." -- Romans 3:11.

 

[utilyan]

". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ." -- Romans 3:11.
". . . The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.. . ." -- Psalms 14:2
". . . God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek God.. . ." -- Psalms 53:2.

Paul by the Holy Spirit write instead the conclusion:
". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ." -- Romans 3:11.

None of this states that man has no capacity to support total depravity.


Lets use some common sense here. They are pulling a line directed to Israel..

Romans 3

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

(your version)

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Implication. Mankind has no capacity to do what is right?

No it literally tells you they TURNED ASIDE, they become useless.

You would argue that mankind has always been useless. No, the correct implication of Israel here is THEY were useful, they were on the way. They were doing good, they did seek after God. They turned to sin.

So far as capacity is concern it is plainly there, A useless thing doesn't become useless. You had to be useful before. You can't turn away from the right path, if you never been on there ever.

Compared to God everyone falls short you mess one piece of the law you mess the whole thing up. But if you mess up that gives no indication you have absolutely no capacity at all to seek God or do good.

We have other verses where God has expressed the equality of all men. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. (romans11).

Its not for the purpose of universal condemnation, Just he opposite.

Romans 3

18 there is no fear of God before their eyes.

Acts 10

1Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,2a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

Here is a man, ZERO knowledge of Jesus Christ. Devout man, who feared God, which you would claim is an impossibility. He cannot even be regenerated one lick until he has heard the gospel.

The angel of GOD answers him. GOD almighty answers this pagan Man who has no idea who Jesus is. Even later he gets on his knees and worships PETER!


Acts 10

25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” 27As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled. 28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.


Here goes Peter preaching the exact opposite of total depravity:^

"yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean."

You would tell PETER, no Peter you are wrong all men are unholy and unclean filthy rags, am I right?

You would tell Peter all men are unholy and deserve hell.

Guys you have to let the scripture SPEAK what it says.

Its a difficult position you are in because I know it gets drilled in with a belief and then you are expected to fish the belief from scripture.

What you guys want it to mean is not there. Total Depravity is never taught.

Scripture could have easily devoted a chapter and said, guys let me teach you about a thing called total depravity. It sure sounds like important enough doctrine to deserve a mention. It is not taught.

 

[Yeshua1]

None of this states that man has no capacity to support total depravity.


Lets use some common sense here. They are pulling a line directed to Israel..

Romans 3

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

(your version)

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Implication. Mankind has no capacity to do what is right?

No it literally tells you they TURNED ASIDE, they become useless.

You would argue that mankind has always been useless. No, the correct implication of Israel here is THEY were useful, they were on the way. They were doing good, they did seek after God. They turned to sin.

So far as capacity is concern it is plainly there, A useless thing doesn't become useless. You had to be useful before. You can't turn away from the right path, if you never been on there ever.

Compared to God everyone falls short you mess one piece of the law you mess the whole thing up. But if you mess up that gives no indication you have absolutely no capacity at all to seek God or do good.

We have other verses where God has expressed the equality of all men. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. (romans11).

Its not for the purpose of universal condemnation, Just he opposite.

Romans 3

18 there is no fear of God before their eyes.

Acts 10

1Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,2a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

Here is a man, ZERO knowledge of Jesus Christ. Devout man, who feared God, which you would claim is an impossibility. He cannot even be regenerated one lick until he has heard the gospel.

The angel of GOD answers him. GOD almighty answers this pagan Man who has no idea who Jesus is. Even later he gets on his knees and worships PETER!


Acts 10

25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” 27As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled. 28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.


Here goes Peter preaching the exact opposite of total depravity:^

"yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean."

You would tell PETER, no Peter you are wrong all men are unholy and unclean filthy rags, am I right?

You would tell Peter all men are unholy and deserve hell.

Guys you have to let the scripture SPEAK what it says.

Its a difficult position you are in because I know it gets drilled in with a belief and then you are expected to fish the belief from scripture.

What you guys want it to mean is not there. Total Depravity is never taught.

Scripture could have easily devoted a chapter and said, guys let me teach you about a thing called total depravity. It sure sounds like important enough doctrine to deserve a mention. It is not taught.

What is taught is that Isaiah and Paul and peter all saw sinners as running away, and towards, God to save them!

 

[HankD]

An apple tree is an apple tree whether it is currently bearing fruit or not.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Only God can know it, even we with the deceitful heart don't know it.

 

[37818]

None of this states that man has no capacity to support total depravity.


Lets use some common sense here. They are pulling a line directed to Israel..

Romans 3

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

(your version)

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Implication. Mankind has no capacity to do what is right?

No it literally tells you they TURNED ASIDE, they become useless.

You would argue that mankind has always been useless. No, the correct implication of Israel here is THEY were useful, they were on the way. They were doing good, they did seek after God. They turned to sin.

So far as capacity is concern it is plainly there, A useless thing doesn't become useless. You had to be useful before. You can't turn away from the right path, if you never been on there ever.

Compared to God everyone falls short you mess one piece of the law you mess the whole thing up. But if you mess up that gives no indication you have absolutely no capacity at all to seek God or do good.

We have other verses where God has expressed the equality of all men. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. (romans11).

Its not for the purpose of universal condemnation, Just he opposite.

Romans 3

18 there is no fear of God before their eyes.

Acts 10

1Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,2a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

Here is a man, ZERO knowledge of Jesus Christ. Devout man, who feared God, which you would claim is an impossibility. He cannot even be regenerated one lick until he has heard the gospel.

The angel of GOD answers him. GOD almighty answers this pagan Man who has no idea who Jesus is. Even later he gets on his knees and worships PETER!


Acts 10

25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” 27As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled. 28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.


Here goes Peter preaching the exact opposite of total depravity:^

"yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean."

You would tell PETER, no Peter you are wrong all men are unholy and unclean filthy rags, am I right?

You would tell Peter all men are unholy and deserve hell.

Guys you have to let the scripture SPEAK what it says.

Its a difficult position you are in because I know it gets drilled in with a belief and then you are expected to fish the belief from scripture.

What you guys want it to mean is not there. Total Depravity is never taught.

Scripture could have easily devoted a chapter and said, guys let me teach you about a thing called total depravity. It sure sounds like important enough doctrine to deserve a mention. It is not taught.

So then am I to understand that you deny that Romans 3:11 is true, wherein no one would get saved, unless God by His Holy Spirit intervenes as in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14? ". . . through sanctification of the Spirit . . ."

 

[Yeshua1]

So then am I to understand that you deny that Romans 3:11 is true, wherein no one would get saved, unless God by His Holy Spirit intervenes as in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14? ". . . through sanctification of the Spirit . . ."

Paul very clear that byt the doing of the law none shall be justified before god, as none save Jesus can ever keep it as God intended!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I find it disturbing that you have encountered Christians who are striving to earn their salvation and "help" Jesus Christ atone for their sins. Do they share with you their testimony of being born-again? If they can't do that, on what basis do you conclude they are Children of God

In Britain, such people are ubiquitous. My church does door-to-door calling. If we meet with someone who claims to be a Christian, we ask them, "If you died tonight, how confident are you of going to heaven?" All Roman Catholics and a worryingly high number of Protestants reply, "Well, I hope I've done enough."

 

[JonShaff]

In Britain, such people are ubiquitous. My church does door-to-door calling. If we meet with someone who claims to be a Christian, we ask them, "If you died tonight, how confident are you of going to heaven?" All Roman Catholics and a worryingly high number of Protestants reply, "Well, I hope I've done enough."

I get this response a lot, too.

I believe there are (at least) two reasons for this response...

1) we have many lost people who claim to be Christians (most would agree with this and many would say this is obvious)

2) We have not discipled legitimate born-again believers to the point where they can articulate what happened to them spiritually.

 

[Yeshua1]

In Britain, such people are ubiquitous. My church does door-to-door calling. If we meet with someone who claims to be a Christian, we ask them, "If you died tonight, how confident are you of going to heaven?" All Roman Catholics and a worryingly high number of Protestants reply, "Well, I hope I've done enough."

Those who answer in this fashion no doubt are basing salvation on the ole "I am not as bad as you" thinking!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I get this response a lot, too.

I believe there are (at least) two reasons for this response...

1) we have many lost people who claim to be Christians (most would agree with this and many would say this is obvious)

2) We have not discipled legitimate born-again believers to the point where they can articulate what happened to them spiritually.

I think it's just the natural ignorance of people about the Bible, couples with their worldly logic: good people go to heaven; bad people go to hell. Obvious, innit? That's the gist of the O.P. and Utilyan's posts. But of course, Christ died for the ungodly.

 

[utilyan]

I think it's just the natural ignorance of people about the Bible, couples with their worldly logic: good people go to heaven; bad people go to hell. Obvious, innit? That's the gist of the O.P. and Utilyan's posts. But of course, Christ died for the ungodly.

Well gist of Martin's is Satan is Lord who grants him gnostic understanding or maybe we should let Martin speak for himself instead rather than put words in his mouth?

I prefer to believe Good people go to hell and "bad" people are hell.

 

[loDebar]

All people are bad, some accept forgiveness

 

[37818]

". . . He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. . . ." -- Revelation 21:7-8.

". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ." -- Revelation 20:15.

". . . For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, evenour faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? . . ." -- 1 John 5:4-5.

 

[loDebar]

One overcomes the distractions you list in order to believe.
Their actions only show their status of disbelief. It is not a list of rules but symptoms that show their interest in the world

 

[Wesley Briggman]

One overcomes the distractions you list in order to believe.

Please reconsider your statement in lite of the following.

A believer overcomes the world because of his relationship to the Savior through the work of the Holy Spirit in his life.

1Jo 4:4 KJV - Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jo 5:4 KJV - For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think it's just the natural ignorance of people about the Bible, couples with their worldly logic: good people go to heaven; bad people go to hell. Obvious, innit? That's the gist of the O.P. and Utilyan's posts. But of course, Christ died for the ungodly.

Well gist of Martin's is Satan is Lord who grants him gnostic understanding or maybe we should let Martin speak for himself instead rather than put words in his mouth?

I prefer to believe Good people go to hell and "bad" people are hell.

Romans 5:6. 'For when we were still without strength, Christ died for the ungodly.'
Romans 5:8. 'But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.'

 

[OfLivingWaters]

All sins, past, present, and future were laid on the Lord when He died for the sins of the world.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (KJV)

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down* on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (KJV)

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down* on the right hand of God; (KJV)

He paid for every sin that had been committed or that ever will be committed. When Christ died, all of our sins (yours and mine) were future sins. You are correct, however, that we must repent and seek the forgiveness of sins every day just as Jesus taught His disciples to do (Luke 11:4).



*sitting down was the indication that His work was completed.

Except the sin that can never be forgiven , Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. What that is should be a new thread. But in short, it is sin NEVER repented of, and rejecting Christ to your last breath and also the Falling away after you reached your Restoration stage Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (Spiritual Gifts),

6 If they shall fall away, to renew (restore) them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[Yeshua1]

Except the sin that can never be forgiven , Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. What that is should be a new thread. But in short, it is sin NEVER repented of, and rejecting Christ to your last breath and also the Falling away after you reached your Restoration stage Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (Spiritual Gifts),

6 If they shall fall away, to renew (restore) them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

that sin was ONLY able to be done by the Pharisees though, as they saw Jesus Himself, heard Him, saw his miracles, and concluded that he was on side of satan!