Prophecy fulfilled today! Jesus is coming soon.

[freeatlast]

If there were going to be a earthly Jewish millennium as the Classic dispensationalists claim then Jesus Christ would have to rule with a rod of iron.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Of course there will be no earthly millennial. When Jesus Christ returns there will be a general resurrection, the Great White Throne Judgment, and the New Heavens and New Earth where the redeemed will dwell with God forever.

Man are you going to be surprised! :laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

I intend to answer other posts today, but this one just jumped out at me.

This is such a glaring misapplication of prophecy, though very much ingrained in modern Christianity. So many errors, hard to know where to begin:

Assuming those offerings - and they are sin offerings "according to the Law" - will still be given, we have Christ inaugurating a Levitical system of worship. He would be deprecating His own Melchizedekkan Priesthood and re-instituting the very priesthood and system He professedly came to destroy!

What is wrong with this picture? Everything.

Tom

You and i disagree on the future visible return of Jesus Christ but the above is so true. I simply cannot understand how people arrive at a doctrine that denigrates the Sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. Frankly it is very sad!

 

[asterisktom]

Tom

You and i disagree on the future visible return of Jesus Christ but the above is so true. I simply cannot understand how people arrive at a doctrine that denigrates the Sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. Frankly it is very sad!

Yes, OR, they see we (Preterists, Amills and others) keep "spiritualizing away" the Bible. But they "literalize away" the most important spiritual truth of the Bible - Christ's sacrifice. To preserve a modern doctrine they take away from the old, old story.

 

[agedman]

If there were going to be a earthly Jewish millennium as the Classic dispensationalists claim then Jesus Christ would have to rule with a rod of iron.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Of course there will be no earthly millennial. When Jesus Christ returns there will be a general resurrection, the Great White Throne Judgment, and the New Heavens and New Earth where the redeemed will dwell with God forever.

Then you would explain the following selection from the Revelation:

19:1 ¶ And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshiped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 ¶ And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigns.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treads the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation chapter 20

1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The above passage is specific as to the terms of the 1000 year reign, how it starts, who participates, and how it ends.

Perhaps you will provide what proof you can to discredit what John wrote.

Perhaps with your pie in the sky view of the earth getting better and better until righteous rule the world you can explain the conquest given and the thrones distributed.

Please be sure to surround your view with Scriptures that totally discount John's clear wording of the posted passage.

 

[asterisktom]

Perhaps you will provide what proof you can to discredit what John wrote.

Perhaps with your pie in the sky view of the earth getting better and better until righteous rule the world you can explain the conquest given and the thrones distributed.

Please be sure to surround your view with Scriptures that totally discount John's clear wording of the posted passage.

Why don't you also ask him when he stopped kicking his dog?

I know you were not writing to me, but this is why I would not bother to add more to this thread. You are grandstanding instead of conversing. A lot of the younger Turks here do it a lot, but I had expected a lot more from you.

By "grandstanding" I mean those parts I had underlined. You are so wrapped up in the defense of your view that you forget (or perhaps don't care?) to state the opposing view civilly and accurately.

 

[freeatlast]

Why don't you also ask him when he stopped kicking his dog?

I know you were not writing to me, but this is why I would not bother to add more to this thread. You are grandstanding instead of conversing. A lot of the younger Turks here do it a lot, but I had expected a lot more from you.

By "grandstanding" I mean those parts I had underlined. You are so wrapped up in the defense of your view that you forget (or perhaps don't care?) to state the opposing view civilly and accurately.

What part of the Revelation text do you not agree with as being 1000 years?

 

[asterisktom]

What part of the Revelation text do you not agree with as being 1000 years?

What part of the Revelation text do you not agree with as describing an Angel with literal pillars for feet: one in the sea, the other on land?

 

[agedman]

Why don't you also ask him when he stopped kicking his dog?

I know you were not writing to me, but this is why I would not bother to add more to this thread. You are grandstanding instead of conversing. A lot of the younger Turks here do it a lot, but I had expected a lot more from you.

By "grandstanding" I mean those parts I had underlined. You are so wrapped up in the defense of your view that you forget (or perhaps don't care?) to state the opposing view civilly and accurately.

First: I posted the extensive passage of the teaching (being careful to include prior passage and ending verses) about the truth of the millennium. I stated that it is NOT my view but that of John. It certainly follows that to discredit John's view is critical to discrediting the literal millennium. One certainly cannot keep an a-mill. view and not deal directly with discrediting the scene and statements of John's record.

The BB folks take a certain pride in discussing Scriptures, and there is accountability for the misuse.

To proclaim that a whole section is invalid by some scheme that doesn't allow for it to occur as declared by Scriptures that it will occur and that it will occur in a certain way with certain happening before and after is wrong.


Second: Why should I state an opposing view as other than discredited when it it fashions itself against the clear testimony of John?

Does the a-mill scheme provide for a more literal understanding then what John wrote?

Can a-mills (or any other such scheme) point to anytime in history in which the world was ruled as John states - returns clothed and rules from Jerusalem vested as the King of Kings for a 1000 years - just as John records in the Revelation ?

Can a-mills (or any other such scheme) point to anytime in history when satanic forces and Satan is actually chained for a 1000 years as John states?

Can a-mills (or any other such scheme) point to anytime in history when the apostles and the saints returned to earth to rule and reign with Christ, that the camp of the saints were surrounded and time immediately ended and all were brought before a great white throne - as John states?

Can a-mills (or any other such scheme) declare with certainty that John was mistaken about what he recorded?

I take it as absolutely an affront to Scriptures that there are those on the BB that would discredit what is so clearly written. To do so in favor of some scheme that is opposed to the step by step action oriented scenes John describes, particularly in this passage, is unwarranted.

This is not some mere difference of opinion, it is a matter of the truth of the Scriptures.

It is like someone actually saying, God didn't part the Red Sea, and Peter didn't walk on water. For when it is so clearly laid out and so clearly stated, how is it then discredited?

In fairness, I do not hold to some of the dispensation extreme teaching, and especially that relating to salvation - for I consider there is one redemption from Adam to the last Amen. I am covenant oriented, yet understand that there are promises made to the physical Israel that do not apply to the Spiritual Israel.

And I am Pre-mill in my basic views including a pre-wrath rapture - though again not extremist that I cannot acknowledge mid or even post trib. rapture views, too.

However, to take away the total millennium and create some "ushering in the kingdom of God by the church" a-mill view is just not Scriptural nor sound according to John's writing in the Revelation as noted and posted.


I'm not from Missouri, but in this case, someone is got a lot of show and tell to do in order to discredit what John puts forth as factual.

 

[agedman]

What part of the Revelation text do you not agree with as describing an Angel with literal pillars for feet: one in the sea, the other on land?

Because you cannot visualize it as real, doesn't mean it isn't.

For instance, the prophet's servant could not imagine more on his side than that of the king who was confronting him.

That is until the prophet asked God to open his eyes.

Then he saw the reality.

The fact is that the Israeli's were guided by a pillar of fire by night.

What is the problem with the angel having feet as pillars of fire?

Is it too fanciful?

Perhaps the Israeli's thought that about what guided them at night, too?

Certainly was useful in the desert cold to have a bit of warmth.

 

[freeatlast]

What part of the Revelation text do you not agree with as describing an Angel with literal pillars for feet: one in the sea, the other on land?

You are being childish. I asked an honest question and you play a word game. Unless you are daft you should know there is no comparison to your question and mine. I would rather you just answer what I asked instead of the silly games. By the way I see no reason to believe that the event you mentioned will not take place as described.

 

[OldRegular]

Then you would explain the following selection from the Revelation:

The above passage is specific as to the terms of the 1000 year reign, how it starts, who participates, and how it ends.

Perhaps you will provide what proof you can to discredit what John wrote.

Perhaps with your pie in the sky view of the earth getting better and better until righteous rule the world you can explain the conquest given and the thrones distributed.

Please be sure to surround your view with Scriptures that totally discount John's clear wording of the posted passage.

I am happy to oblige agedman though I realize disputing the dispensational mythology regarding end times is as useless as shoveling sand against the tide, nevertheless the first installment follows!

The Marriage of the Lamb [Chapter 19: 1-10]

In this passage we are presented the fifth of seven pictures in the Book of Revelation of the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. Note the similarities between this passage and the passage following the sound of the seventh trumpet [Revelation 11:15-19], which is the second picture in the Book of Revelation of the end of the age.

Rather than another view of the history of this dispensation the picture is one of rejoicing in heaven, the great harlot, the bride of the antichrist has been judged. The time has come for the marriage of the Lamb. The bride, the Church, is presented as a chaste virgin, holy and without blemish [2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:27] to the bridegroom, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. When that marriage is culminated time is no more.

John now hears a great voice in heaven praising God for His judgment of the great whore. The voice may be that of the heavenly host, the voice of the myriad of angels that are said to surround the throne of God [Revelation 5: 11], it may be the multitude of the redeemed, or both This rejoicing is in sharp contrast to those who mourn the fall of the great harlot and city called Babylon. The praise of God is fourfold: Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power. He is praised because of His true and righteous judgment of the harlot and His vindication of His servants, those who are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

The judgment of the harlot is eternal: And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. The harlot represents the counterfeit church, those people who, while outwardly claiming to be Christians, are nevertheless, unredeemed. These are among those whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. These are among those who are without the holy city, the New Jerusalem [Revelation 21:27; 22:15]. Of these the Righteous Judge will declare: I never knew you: depart from me. Their end is the lake of fire [Revelation 20:15].

We now see the twenty four elders and four beasts fall down before the throne in worship saying Amen; Alleluia . [The word Alleluia is of Hebrew origin and means praise the Lord. It is found only in this passage in the New Testament and the Psalms of the Old Testament. The word is translated Hallelujah in some of the more recent versions.] The scene is similar to that of John’s initial vision of the throne room of God [Chapters 4 & 5]. The twenty four elders represent the total number of the redeemed throughout time and the four beasts likely represent a restored creation.

A command now comes from the throne to all the host of heaven, including that great multitude of the redeemed [Revelation 7:9] who await the redemption of the body. The one who utters the command is not identified but the wording of the command indicates that it is from someone other than God. The voice is apparently from the one who identifies himself in Verse 10 as thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus. The command: Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. The thunderous response: Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

The time is come for the culmination of redemption, the marriage of the Lamb. The imagery of the marriage demonstrates the fervent love of God for His people. In the Old Testament God is pictured as the husband and Israel as the wife [Isaiah 54:5,6; Jeremiah 31:32]. In the New Testament the Church is pictured as the bride of Jesus Christ [2 Corinthians 11:2], the Church for which He suffered and died [Acts 20:28; Ephesians 5:25; 1 John 4:10]. The Church, the bride, is ready. The full number of the elect have been brought into the household of faith. The bride is arrayed in fine linen, clean and white, in vivid contrast to the scarlet and purple worn by the mother of harlots, the counterfeit church. The white linen garments represents the righteousness of saints. That righteousness is not of themselves but is the righteousness which is imputed to each true believer because of his faith in Jesus Christ [Romans 3:21-28; Philippians 3:8, 9]. It is important to note that there is no limitation placed on the identity of the Saints. They are obviously not just the Saints of the so called ‘Church age’ as the dispensationalist argues but include all people of all time who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world. The glory of this union is further described in Chapters 21 & 22.

The angel next tells John to write: Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. This is the fourth of seven blessings promised in the book of Revelation to those who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Who are these who are called or invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb? They are none other than the bride, the Church. There is no one else. When the marriage supper takes place time is no more. There is a new heaven and earth for the first heaven and earth have passed away , the holy city, the New Jerusalem, the Church comes down from God out of heaven, the tabernacle of God is with men and He will dwell with them [Revelation 21:1-3]. All others are without the holy city the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. [Revelation 22:15, KJV]. Indeed those who are called to the marriage supper are truly blessed.

Look once again at the words: Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. The speaker then states: These are the true sayings of God. Why? We who are redeemed know that the sayings of God are true. The writer of Hebrews provides the answer.

Hebrews 6:13, 17-20, KJV
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

The writer of Hebrews tells us that by two immutable truths, 1] that it is impossible for God to lie and 2] that He confirmed the promise of redemption by an oath, provide strong consolation to those who have fled to Him for refuge. Similarly, John is told that what he has seen and heard are the true sayings of God. It may be that the speaker is referring to all that has been revealed to John, however, there is no doubt that he is referring to those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. Therefore, these have the double assurance of the blessings in store for them 1] it is impossible for God to lie and 2] the promise is a true saying of God.

The Apostle is so enthralled by what he has seen and heard that he falls to his knees in an attitude of worship. He is strongly rebuked by the speaker. Only God is worthy of worship.

As we are confronted with this picture of the consummation of redemption, the marriage of the Lamb, the final union of Jesus Christ and His Bride, the Church we can perhaps comprehend:

The words of the Apostle Paul For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.[Philippians 1:21]

The plea of the Apostle John, Even so, come, Lord Jesus.[Revelation 22:20]

The last words of a dying brother, “I am satisfied.”

 

[freeatlast]

When the marriage supper takes place time is no more.

I am curious. Are you sure that you want to hold that time will end based on Rev 10:6? I think a better understanding is that time has run out and no more delays will take place.

 

[asterisktom]

However, to take away the total millennium and create some "ushering in the kingdom of God by the church" a-mill view is just not Scriptural nor sound according to John's writing in the Revelation as noted and posted.

We have a choice of either "taking away" the millennium or "taking away" the finished work of Christ. I see you chose the latter.

 

[OldRegular]

What part of the Revelation text do you not agree with as describing an Angel with literal pillars for feet: one in the sea, the other on land?

They believe it Tom! They believe it!

I had to interrupt my response to agedman, sorry!

 

[asterisktom]

Because you cannot visualize [the pillar-feet of the angel of Revelation] it as real, doesn't mean it isn't.

[Insertion mine] There is difference between "real" and "literal" The feet were real in that they stood for a real truth. They were not literally pillars that extended hundreds or thousands of miles. That would have caused enormous damage. They are symbolic. I am tempted to go into detail here, but that would be a thread in itself. And I don't have the time.

Speaking of differences. You do not seem to appreciate the difference - in the case of Revelation, the stated difference - between apocalyptic and historical books.

 

[asterisktom]

You are being childish. I asked an honest question and you play a word game. Unless you are daft you should know there is no comparison to your question and mine. I would rather you just answer what I asked instead of the silly games. By the way I see no reason to believe that the event you mentioned will not take place as described.

I was not being childish. I was being straightforward. I was extending your logic to the necessary conclusion. Calling it "childish" means that you do not see that connection.

The connection is that they are both (pillar legs, 1000 years) symbolic. That symbols and signs are used in Revelation we have a notice given in the very opening of the book.

Oddly, the 1000 years always gets literalized by Dispensationalists, but the "last hour" (the ultimate 60 minutes) get spiritualized. Inconsistent? Yes. A necessary inconsistency.

 

[OldRegular]

The King of Kings and Lord of Lords [Chapter 19:11-21]

Post deleted and moved to thread: Revelation 19 & 20

 

[asterisktom]

They believe it Tom! They believe it!

I had to interrupt my response to agedman, sorry!

Incredible, I know.

Well, I used to believe it too. I guess I have to keep that in mind. I used to teach and preach it, clutching the pulpit tightly and holding the Bible up as if I was spouting pure gospel truth.

But it was all a system I had been taught.

 

[OldRegular]

Post deleted and moved to thread: Revelation 19 & 20

 

[OldRegular]

Post deleted and moved to thread: Revelation 19 & 20