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Proposal of a New Theological Degree
- Thread starter Rhetorician
- Start date
It seems very interesting; that some who hold a conviction that not much formal education of vocational ministers is necessary, have an opinion on "The Proposal of a New Theological Degree."
Does that fit the definition of "irony?"
Now, that is the most unheard of thing I have ever heard of?!
rd
Does that fit the definition of "irony?"
Now, that is the most unheard of thing I have ever heard of?!
rd
===
I did my ThM at Western Seminary in two years of part time work. It required a thesis and the Biblical languages. The MDiv was a prerequisite to that. Working full time one with a BA could finish the MDiv/ThM combo in four years.
In some schools , as Masters, the ThM is a prereq to doc study. In other schools as the Baptist in Pa., a ThM decreases the required work for a PhD.
Bill
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That is a good point. We should all remember not to be like the Scribes and Pharisees who were full of "greed and self indulgence." (NIV)
However, it is not my impression that those fine teachers I had in Seminary were full of those things. Rather, they were full of knowledge which is commendable according to the apostolic directives for teachers (and learners too). The teachers I had were hard working, humble individuals who spent a great deal of time making themselves ready to do God's work at low pay. They hardly were full of greed and self indulgence as were those subjects in Christ's command in Mt 23! The same can be said IMO about the good men I now share the load with in our seminary.
Isn't it interesting that Jesus in Mt. 23 says that there is only one teacher yet Paul indicates that many are called to teach, and Paul , himself, calls these teachers!! So, does Paul break the command of His Lord do we suppose?
I do not mind the use of titles as "Doctor or "Professor" when such titles are honestly earned and indicate a person's function in the church. We call others pastors or missionaries or deacons or elders or evangelists, therefore, while I see the need for humility, I see no good reason to stop using titles in order to keep Christ's command in Mt 23.
IMO that is taken a bit out of context!
Bill
Rhet,
You are correct. I had 153 undergrad hours in bible/theology/english. TEDS granted me 21 quarter hours of transfer credit towards the M.Div. (the equivalent of one semester). Plus, as you have stated, I was allowed to take advanced courses for the systematic theology sequence, etc.
However, it still took essentially three years beyond the B.A.
My point is that a B.A. in Bible/theology should prepare a student to earn his Ph.D. in three to four years, not the 7 it now takes at TEDS, SBTS, etc.
You are correct. I had 153 undergrad hours in bible/theology/english. TEDS granted me 21 quarter hours of transfer credit towards the M.Div. (the equivalent of one semester). Plus, as you have stated, I was allowed to take advanced courses for the systematic theology sequence, etc.
However, it still took essentially three years beyond the B.A.
My point is that a B.A. in Bible/theology should prepare a student to earn his Ph.D. in three to four years, not the 7 it now takes at TEDS, SBTS, etc.
Paul33,
It must be kept in mind (and I know you know this) that the university is training researchers when they turn out PhDs. But, the seminaries first obligation is to turn out ministers who can "land on their feet" in any ministerial situation w/out having to get OJT.
A man with a good MDiv degree should be able to: pastor, with all its iterations; exegete, b/c he has and knows the BLs; "do missions," b/c he has had the fundamentals of missionology &/or church planting; be a denominational worker; organize a church ed or SS program; chaplain, b/c he has had some pastoral counseling; etc. et al and many many other things. These he can do w/o having to learn and can plug in easily.
It is rather unfair to call both PhDs the same degree. They are founded upon totally different presuppostions. When a man has an MDiv, then a ThM, and then a PhD; he is actually "double gold." He is trained as a pastor with a 90 sem hr minimum masters. He is then trained as an academic who has earned a PhD/ThD that is just as (and sometimes more) rigorous as the university's terminal degree.
That is why all of this anti-intellectual, anti-formal education, mentor preachers in the local church and not in the "institution," talk that has been espoused here is really moot and not thought through.
UZ, I have found all of my formal ed in every institution and on every level was done by: Godly, sold out, humble, contrite, Scripture loving, BL knowing, experienced in the wisdom of the world and the wisdom of the church, missionaries, church planters, church admin men, denominational workers, chaplains, etc.
These men loved me, chastised me, prayed with me, prayed over me, "layed hands" on me, guided me, and otherwise gave counsel that one local church pastor could not have possibly done.
Do we need to mentor young men in our local churches? YES! But, in large measure the local church has failed for whatever reason. That is one of the main foci of the seminaries and the para-church organizations; to do what the local churches have not always done as they were supposed to do.
So please forgive me if my blood pressure goes up a bit, when I see what can b/c of a "lump of clay" like myself when placed by a Sovereign God into the hands of faithful men who are berated for what they do and stand for. Men who are churchmen in their own right and who have given their lives to commit to other faithful men who will go and teach likewise.
I have run long and "preached," do please forgive.
sdg!
rd
It must be kept in mind (and I know you know this) that the university is training researchers when they turn out PhDs. But, the seminaries first obligation is to turn out ministers who can "land on their feet" in any ministerial situation w/out having to get OJT.
A man with a good MDiv degree should be able to: pastor, with all its iterations; exegete, b/c he has and knows the BLs; "do missions," b/c he has had the fundamentals of missionology &/or church planting; be a denominational worker; organize a church ed or SS program; chaplain, b/c he has had some pastoral counseling; etc. et al and many many other things. These he can do w/o having to learn and can plug in easily.
It is rather unfair to call both PhDs the same degree. They are founded upon totally different presuppostions. When a man has an MDiv, then a ThM, and then a PhD; he is actually "double gold." He is trained as a pastor with a 90 sem hr minimum masters. He is then trained as an academic who has earned a PhD/ThD that is just as (and sometimes more) rigorous as the university's terminal degree.
That is why all of this anti-intellectual, anti-formal education, mentor preachers in the local church and not in the "institution," talk that has been espoused here is really moot and not thought through.
UZ, I have found all of my formal ed in every institution and on every level was done by: Godly, sold out, humble, contrite, Scripture loving, BL knowing, experienced in the wisdom of the world and the wisdom of the church, missionaries, church planters, church admin men, denominational workers, chaplains, etc.
These men loved me, chastised me, prayed with me, prayed over me, "layed hands" on me, guided me, and otherwise gave counsel that one local church pastor could not have possibly done.
Do we need to mentor young men in our local churches? YES! But, in large measure the local church has failed for whatever reason. That is one of the main foci of the seminaries and the para-church organizations; to do what the local churches have not always done as they were supposed to do.
So please forgive me if my blood pressure goes up a bit, when I see what can b/c of a "lump of clay" like myself when placed by a Sovereign God into the hands of faithful men who are berated for what they do and stand for. Men who are churchmen in their own right and who have given their lives to commit to other faithful men who will go and teach likewise.
I have run long and "preached," do please forgive.
sdg!
rd
Rhet,
Once again, you are correct! I never thought of it that way before, double gold, that is.
Since we are talking about a new theological degree, I would like to propose a three year university Ph.D. followed by a one year residency with a local pastor trained for this purpose. I mean, on site, evaluated, full-time church ministry work!
This would take four years and prepare a Ph.D. trained academic in real life practical hands on ministry. Upon completion of the residency, the student would earn the M.Div. degree. What do you think?
It is my opinion that the practical aspects of ministry can really only be learned through a hands-on approach.
Once again, you are correct! I never thought of it that way before, double gold, that is.
Since we are talking about a new theological degree, I would like to propose a three year university Ph.D. followed by a one year residency with a local pastor trained for this purpose. I mean, on site, evaluated, full-time church ministry work!
This would take four years and prepare a Ph.D. trained academic in real life practical hands on ministry. Upon completion of the residency, the student would earn the M.Div. degree. What do you think?
It is my opinion that the practical aspects of ministry can really only be learned through a hands-on approach.
Paul33,
I would really like to think that one through.
I would, however, like for UZThD and Dr. Bob to offer their insights. They too have long time academic careers and are wise beyond their years.
sdg!
rd
I would really like to think that one through.
I would, however, like for UZThD and Dr. Bob to offer their insights. They too have long time academic careers and are wise beyond their years.
sdg!
rd
==
Hi Paul
Hands on is a good way to learn praxis. Many seminaries require an internship as you know.
But were our proposed doc to be in Bible or Theology, I think four years is cutting it a bit short. As you know the MDiv now or even the ThM is often the prereq to begin doc work. Doc work then (in the USA) requires two or more years of coursework plus a dissertation. No dissertation of substance IMO can be done in a year. My ThM thesis took me a year and it is much less sophisticated and substantial than my later effort.
But is that all time and learning a necessary foundation for an academic doc in Bible or Theology? IMO yes, but I confess I speak as an old, slow guy! The material is so very wide and deep that IMO, it could not be handled well in four years (MA/doc combo)
I took a short route as I did a foreign doc by research only. Still, it took three years. During most of it I was retired and so gave full time to it! I had the running start of completing the work for an MA, MDiv, and ThM in subjects cognate to the dissertational topic. Still it took me three years.
I don't see how after doing just the MA I could have begun doc research. I simply had not even the conceptual understanding of the issue of my dissertational research even after the MDiv! In fact, even after the MDiv I was quite unaware of the wide differences of opinion even within Bible believing evangelicalism on my subject( which is the Person of Christ). Maybe I'm just too dull, but if my experience reflects a common one, then a MA/doc doc in Bible or Theology in just four years really is inconceivable. Just my opinion!
Blessings,
Bill
[ January 31, 2006, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: UZThD ]
We need a new paradigm in the religious studies.
Maybe we need to regain an old paradigm as well.
But, whatever it might be - we need it quickly.
The USA is the THIRD largest MISSION FIELD in the WORLD. With the best minister to non-Christian ratio in world,* we might also have the largest concentration of failed ministry in the world.
* I usually hear that "95% of the World's ministers are in the USA." I personally think this number is for Protestant and Baptist ministers.
Maybe we need to regain an old paradigm as well.
But, whatever it might be - we need it quickly.
The USA is the THIRD largest MISSION FIELD in the WORLD. With the best minister to non-Christian ratio in world,* we might also have the largest concentration of failed ministry in the world.
* I usually hear that "95% of the World's ministers are in the USA." I personally think this number is for Protestant and Baptist ministers.
UZ,
So true.
What I'm getting at is a 4-5 year doctorate for those who have a B.A. in Bible/Theology.
It seems that the seminaries could build on the undergraduate degree for those who want to enter teaching.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think an intense four year B.A. with Greek, Hebrew, German, OT and NT Introduction, hermeneutics, could prepare one for a four year Ph.D. program at the seminaries that would be different from what the seminaries now offer.
So true.
What I'm getting at is a 4-5 year doctorate for those who have a B.A. in Bible/Theology.
It seems that the seminaries could build on the undergraduate degree for those who want to enter teaching.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think an intense four year B.A. with Greek, Hebrew, German, OT and NT Introduction, hermeneutics, could prepare one for a four year Ph.D. program at the seminaries that would be different from what the seminaries now offer.
As I grew up in the church housing Central Baptist Theological Seminary (in Mpls) I saw a lot of men come out of college/university to go into the ministry. Few went into the pastorate without grad work; they were the rare exception.
Problem was that many had to take 20-30 credits of "bonehead" (remedial language, etc) work just to get them into the first for-credit class. These men were mostly married, working long hours, then trying to get seminary.
After 3-4 years (and usually only 1/2 way thru the program) they'd get an opportunity to pastor and away they'd go. The drop out rate - and thus NO degree - was horrendous.
Many of these men then recommended a strong pre-pastoral Bible College training and some grad work or work in a church, then into the ministry.
I think that men DO need grad work, but why not on the BJU/secular university model that, if they HAD the good Bible College undergrad training, they could get a Master of Arts or Master of Ministries in 35-50 credits.
Problem was that many had to take 20-30 credits of "bonehead" (remedial language, etc) work just to get them into the first for-credit class. These men were mostly married, working long hours, then trying to get seminary.
After 3-4 years (and usually only 1/2 way thru the program) they'd get an opportunity to pastor and away they'd go. The drop out rate - and thus NO degree - was horrendous.
Many of these men then recommended a strong pre-pastoral Bible College training and some grad work or work in a church, then into the ministry.
I think that men DO need grad work, but why not on the BJU/secular university model that, if they HAD the good Bible College undergrad training, they could get a Master of Arts or Master of Ministries in 35-50 credits.
Dr. Bob:
I have just finished looking over several seminaries that offer Master's degrees besides M.Div.. I found they can range from 32 Hrs. to 69-72, which I believe was the longest I found. There are several including the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary that have what you are hunting. I believe, if I am not mistaken the SBTS offers at least one Master's of 45 hours. Trinity Evangelical Divinity School offers one at 32 hrs. but implies it may take longer. Temple Bibvle Seminary offers one at 32 hrs. as well. Interestingly enough, some of the larger Seminaries required fewer hours for some of their Master's than some maybe lesser known. Every M.Div. I saw, by contrast, was between 90 at the fewest, and 96 at the most semester hours for that degree.
Just for what it's worth.
AS I said before, the offerings run the gamut, and are over the place, as well. And that is just the legit ones.
Ed
I have just finished looking over several seminaries that offer Master's degrees besides M.Div.. I found they can range from 32 Hrs. to 69-72, which I believe was the longest I found. There are several including the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary that have what you are hunting. I believe, if I am not mistaken the SBTS offers at least one Master's of 45 hours. Trinity Evangelical Divinity School offers one at 32 hrs. but implies it may take longer. Temple Bibvle Seminary offers one at 32 hrs. as well. Interestingly enough, some of the larger Seminaries required fewer hours for some of their Master's than some maybe lesser known. Every M.Div. I saw, by contrast, was between 90 at the fewest, and 96 at the most semester hours for that degree.
Just for what it's worth.
AS I said before, the offerings run the gamut, and are over the place, as well. And that is just the legit ones.
Ed
Dr. Bob,
I have often wondered why we have raised the bar a little higher on the graduate programs in Theology?
Yet, of the 12 that had the best instructor - 12 failed the final exam their first attempt, and only 11 retook it for a passing grade.
I apologize for the metaphor. But, I wonder why our model seems so different.
I have often wondered why we have raised the bar a little higher on the graduate programs in Theology?
Yet, of the 12 that had the best instructor - 12 failed the final exam their first attempt, and only 11 retook it for a passing grade.
I apologize for the metaphor. But, I wonder why our model seems so different.