Protestant Purgatory?

[Lacy Evans]

I would check our Joey Faust. I believe he is the real promoter of this type of "theology."

Why not check Paul, Peter, Luke, James, John, etc.?

I defy you to show where I quoted Hodges. And as far as Faust goes, it's hard to say who is quoting who because we came to these conclusions together. But I suggest you go back further to the guys who were much more learned than me, Faust or Hodges.

See:

http://www.schoettlepublishing.com/otherworks.htm

http://www.schoettlepublishing.com/booksonline.htm

 

[James_Newman]

2 Timothy 2: But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.

Is the house of God not so divided?

 

[webdog]

2 Timothy 2: But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.

Is the house of God not so divided?

That Scripture is talking about those within the Church who are both believers and unbelievers. Nothing about KE whatsoever.

 

[James_Newman]

The house of God (the Church) is full of believers and unbelievers...
2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these (unbelievers), he shall be a vessel unto honor (believer), sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
So what, stop going to church?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Unbelieveable! I haven't been make a post at Baptistboard for a long time. I did read topic at 'Baptist Theology and Bible Study' debate on Protestant Purgatory started by Lac Evans. Then later, Ed Edwards started it for to be continued. Dabte have been into part three. Again, 'Protestant Purgatory' started at 'Other Christian Denominations'.

There have been much debate, debate, deabte. This is the mostly focus on salavation issue.

I read BobRyan's posts. I want to say a big word, AMEN! I am 100% agree with BobRyan on verses. I look at his profile. He is Seventh Day Advent. Well, I am baptist. But, I am so disappointed with Independent Fundament Baptist and Southern Baptist Convention, I as seen so MANY errors within IFB/SBC doctrines. Early in my Christian life, I attend IFB church, I thought IFB's doctrine is sound and truth, because the word, 'fundemental' means strongly stand and firm with truth, and completely separated from the world. But, throughout years later, the more I learned so many new things from the Bible, I am realized that IFB didn't interpreting them correctly, or I guess they just simply twist God's Word, what these are actual saying.

One thing, I consider the teaching of unconditional security salvation doctrine is an itching ears and comfortable to the congregation, Because many IFB churches and colleges make money for to excite their congregation and students than telling the truth. If telling the truths to them, it would offend or hurt their feelings. I am no kidding, I am serious.

I realized that pretribulationalism and osas both are connect and very popular teacing among baptist churches, make them feel comfortable and exciting, also, NO worry. Both are dangerous teachings.

Joey Faust saw conditional warnings in Bible. I say a big word, AMEN. But, yet Faust believes in unconditional security salvation like as osas. Faust, Lacy Evans, James Newman have serious problems with passages such as Matt.25:30 say nothing that a wicked servant shall be finally being released out of the outer darkness beyond the judgment day.

Newman or Evans shew me of Matt 18:34-35 as 'proof' of millennial exclusion. The problem is, verse 34-35 say nothing about 'a thousand years', you cannot do guewsswork by use verse as 'proof' to support Millennial Kingdom, whilst, Christ doesn't saying 'a thousand years' in this passage. If you see Christ says of 'a thousand years' in this passage, then, it is much safe for you to show us the 'proof' of Millennial Kingdom to us to support Matt. 25:30 with Matt. 18:34-35.

BobRyan was right on Matt. 18:34-35, it say nothing about purgatory or millennial, it is talk about forgive. IF we do not forgive person's sin, then God would NOT forgive us. That mean, we ought to forgive one other who sin against us oftenly in our lifetime. Or, if we won't forgive person's sin in our lifetime till by the time we die, then God will NOT forgive us. Eeek!

Same with 1 John 1:19 commands us, that we ought to confess our sins to Christf aithfully, as He is faithfully forgive us all the times while in our lifetime. OR, if we do not confess our currently sins to Christ, then He is not forgive our currently sins in our lifetime, till by the time, we die, then we might be remain unforgiven and suffering in the fire. EEEK!

Someday, I would like to talk to BobRyan about his beliefs and church. One thing, I know the debate of sabbath, which day is Saturday or Sunday is not solve either. Sorry I am off the topic on this thread. Timing of sabbath is lose forever thank to Rome because of persecutions. I don't care which day of sabbath, only thing, I know, we are commanded to rest a day of seven days a week, to worship God. Maybe I am thinking of visit Seventh Dat Advent Church somewhere in Detroit area. I notice SDA do not believe in security salvation. I will look at the sites of SDA, what they really believe.

Back to the track.

Teaching of Kingdom Exclusion is not biblical, Teaching of unconditional security salvation is not biblical.

Cast a person into fire is not a temporarily, nothing find anywhere in the Bible saying that a person shall be finally being released out of fire beyond the judgment day. Once a person cast into the fire is a final everlasting destiny punishment!

Nowhere in the Bible saying that the 'kingdom' lasts for a thousand years. That is men-making doctrine. Kingdom is an eternality, have no ending. Many Christians understand that 'kingdom' is an eternality as salvation.

BobRyan, GOOD POSTS!!! :thumbs:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[webdog]

The house of God (the Church) is full of believers and unbelievers...
2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these (unbelievers), he shall be a vessel unto honor (believer), sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
So what, stop going to church?

With your interpretation, we should not have anything to do with unbelievers. There goes the great commission....

We are to purge ourselves not from them...but from their way of life.

 

[James_Newman]

Nowhere in the Bible saying that the 'kingdom' lasts for a thousand years. That is men-making doctrine. Kingdom is an eternality, have no ending. Many Christians understand that 'kingdom' is an eternality as salvation.

DPT, I think you would make a very good SDA. You are able to hold on to a dogma even when presented clear scripture to the contrary.

1 Corinthians 15:23-26
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The kingdom is not an eternality as salvation. The kingdom is a 'till' he hath put all enemies under his feet.

 

[James_Newman]

With your interpretation, we should not have anything to do with unbelievers. There goes the great commission....

We are to purge ourselves not from them...but from their way of life.

Either way, you are working for salvation, if you interpret 'vessel of honor' as 'saved'. How do you propose to purge yourself from 'them' without works?

 

[webdog]

Either way, you are working for salvation, if you interpret 'vessel of honor' as 'saved'. How do you propose to purge yourself from 'them' without works?

You can only purge yourself from them by becoming a new creation, i.e, born again. This is faith in Christ plain and simple, THE salvation.

 

[James_Newman]

So now we are back to 'true christians don't sin'?

 

[webdog]

So now we are back to 'true christians don't sin'?

No, but true Christians have a reedemer...true Christians have a new nature. Your view of that verse has it's own problems to deal with, i.e., we are to have nothing to do with unbelievers.

 

[James_Newman]

No, but true Christians have a reedemer...true Christians have a new nature. Your view of that verse has it's own problems to deal with, i.e., we are to have nothing to do with unbelievers.

What does that have to do with purging yourself from 'their works' in order to be a vessel unto honor? My view doesn't have near the problem yours has. You are saying this is dealing with saved vs unsaved, and the criteria is clearly based on works. I say this is dealing with sanctification of a believer for the purpose of reward, and I have no problem with works in this context. But when you apply works to the eternal salvation of a beliver, well now we have a problem. My view doesn't say we are to have nothing to do with unbelievers, we're to have nothing to do with unholy believers, vessels unto dishonor in the house of God.

 

[webdog]

What does that have to do with purging yourself from 'their works' in order to be a vessel unto honor?

In order to be used by God, we neet to be a clean vessel. NOTHING to do with works salvation OR M.E.!

 

[James_Newman]

You are being very inconsistent in your interpretations here, webdog.

2 Timothy 2:20-21
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

You have stated that this is talking about saved and unsaved, vessels unto honor and vessels unto dishonor. If a man therefore purge himself, he shall be a vessel unto honor, so what does that mean? If vessel unto honor is a saved person, then it means if a man purge himself from these, he shall be saved, does it not? I think what you want it to say is if a man is a vessel unto honor, he shall purge himself from these. But that isn't what it says.

 

[webdog]

If vessel unto honor is a saved person, then it means if a man purge himself from these, he shall be saved, does it not?

No, it simply means sanctification, being set apart to be used by God.
"...sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."

 

[James_Newman]

That Scripture is talking about those within the Church who are both believers and unbelievers. Nothing about KE whatsoever.

Where did this come from then? Either it is talking about sanctification or it is talking about salvation, but it can hardly be talking about both unless they are the same thing.

 

[webdog]

I think you are arguing what I am NOT saying. This conversation has become confusing.

 

[James_Newman]

If the verse is talking about sanctification, then the meaning is clear. The bible distinguishes between sanctified and unsanctified, vessels unto honor and vessels unto dishonor. These are members of the same household. There are sanctified believers and there are unsanctified believers. So all the shouting about dividing the body of Christ, what does it amount to? God himself makes division between believers.

 

[webdog]

There are sanctified believers and there are unsanctified believers.

I think this is where we don't agree. You are talking only about believers. There are unsanctified unbelievers...what I believe that text to say. We (believers) are to come out of them (unbelievers) in the way we live our lives so God can use us (sanctification).

 

[James_Newman]

I think this is where we don't agree. You are talking only about believers. There are unsanctified unbelievers...what I believe that text to say. We (believers) are to come out of them (unbelievers) in the way we live our lives so God can use us (sanctification).

I'm talking about the vessels in the masters house. Which vessels are the believers and which are the unbelievers?