Protestant Purgatory?

[J. Jump]

If you commit nothing to Him, you just ain't saved.

And that statement just ain't backed up with Scripture! If it is then please show me where we are to believe and commit our lives to Him to be saved.

I see we are saved by grace APART FROM WORKS lest any man should boast. If my committing my life to Him is a part of my salvation then I have room to boast which violates Scripture.

Your statement completely contradicts Acts 16:30-31, because the jailor wasn't told he was to commit anything to the Lord, but he was told to believe. So was the jailor saved or not?

 

[Hope of Glory]

J. Jump, you obviously didn't read the entire verse:

Acts 16:31: [What must I do to be saved?] "Believe on the Lord Jesus, commit your life to him, never faltering (otherwise you never were "truly saved"), follow this with good works to prove you're saved, and you just might (or you might not) be saved."

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Strongs definition of 'Believe' in Acts 16:31:

4100 pisteu,w pisteuo {pist-yoo'-o}
Meaning: 1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in 1a) of the thing believed 1a1) to credit, have confidence 1b) in a moral or religious reference 1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul 1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith 2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity 2a) to be intrusted with a thing
Origin: from 4102; TDNT - 6:174,849; v
Usage: AV - believe 239, commit unto 4, commit to (one's) trust 1, be committed unto 1, be put in trust with 1, be commit to one's trust 1, believer 1; 248

If one truly believes in the Lord, one has committed one's trust to Him. So one does have to commit something to the Lord in order to be saved.

 

[DHK]

That's EXACTLY right. God IS PERFECTLY ABLE to keep that which we commit to Him. The problem is you all think EVERYONE commits EVERYTHING to God at the moment of salvation. This verse DOES NOT in NO WAY shape or form prove your point.

What does the text say. God is able to keep that which I have committed to Him. And if I have not committed anything to Him then He has nothing to keep.

You guys got to quit adding to what Scripture says and just stop where Scripture stops.

If you want to prove your point then show me the Scripture passages that say EVERY Christian will commit their life to the Lord and they will die to self ALWAYS so that the Holy Spirit is in control. So me a Scripture where it says ALL Christians will ALWAYS walk by the Spirit.

You are right. It is just not there. So why are you adding to the Scripture? Where does it say anything about committing one's life, works, or any other such thing.
"For I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day."
You are reading things into that verse that aren't there. In fact you are making it to mean a works salvation which is heretical.

What I have committed to the Lord is my salvation. He will keep me saved. He holds my salvation in His hands. Salvation is all by grace. Christ chose me. Christ saved me. Christ will keep me. One thing I can never lose is eternal life. If that were true then Jesus Christ would be a liar. He said "I give unto you eternal life." Did he say that? Yes or no? If he did, then what does eternal mean? If eternal could stop at any time then eternal would not be eternal it would only be temporary and Christ would be found to be a liar; such is the theology of those who believe that you can lose your salvation.
The verse teaches that Christ keeps our salvation until he comes. And, of course, from that day forth is eternity.
DHK

 

[J. Jump]

What I have committed to the Lord is my salvation. He will keep me saved.

That is a true statement, but what we are talking about is the kingdom not eternal or spiritual salvation.

Of course our spiritual salvation is secure. But the kingdom is not the same message. You are talking about apples and I'm talking about oranges. Before we can even discuss matter we both have to be on the same page.

If you want to talk about spiritual or eternal salvation then this will be a short conversation, because we are swimming in the same ocean on that one.

But I have been talking about the 1,000-year kingdom and what gets one into the kingdom with a position within the reign of The Christ.

One thing I can never lose is eternal life. If that were true then Jesus Christ would be a liar. He said "I give unto you eternal life." Did he say that? Yes or no? If he did, then what does eternal mean? If eternal could stop at any time then eternal would not be eternal it would only be temporary and Christ would be found to be a liar; such is the theology of those who believe that you can lose your salvation.

Well a good number of the places where "eternal" is used it is a poor translation unfortunately. Aionios is better understood as age-lasting in a good number of cases and context is what tells us. If works are in the context then spiritual or eternal salvation is not and it should be understood as age-lasting or then you have to believe in a works based salvation.

The verse teaches that Christ keeps our salvation until he comes. And, of course, from that day forth is eternity.

Actually we don't step into eternity until after the 1,000-year reign of Christ. The millenial kingdom is the next age not eternity.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Eternity for the believer begins at the moment of believing.

1 John 5:11-12 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Hath is past tense. Has give us eternal life. It has been done. That is not an age-lasting life as you would surmise. That is eternal... without end.

John 5:24 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Looks like it is a done deal. Jesus has given us eternal life. Not only that, but He has promised that if we hear Him and believe on His Heavenly Father, we will not come under condemnation.

I would say that to be cast out of the kingdom is condemnation. Praise the Lord for promising never to condemn those that are His.

And those who are not His, never was His.

 

[Hope of Glory]

John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Diggin, got a question for you. One thing that the KJV translators do get right most of the time is the present tense. If you see a verb in the KJV that ends in "th", it's the present tense.

In this verse, "hear" and "believe" are both present, active, participles.

What happens when the one that is being talked about stops hearing and believing?

Oh, and you need to learn your tenses a little bit better.

In 1 John 5:12, the first "hath" is a present, active, participle; the second "hath" is a present, active, indicative; the third "hath" is a present, active, participle; the fourth "hath" is a present, active, indicative. The past tense cannot be stopped; it has already happened. (Actually, it would be aorist, and aorist is not always past tense. It is punctiliar, but usually translated in the past tense.) The present tense can stop.

 

[Hope of Glory]

You are right. It is just not there. So why are you adding to the Scripture? Where does it say anything about committing one's life, works, or any other such thing.

BTW, it wasn't J. Jump that made this claim, it was Diggin in the Word that said you have to commit this stuff in order to be saved. I'm not sure if he meant to get saved, stay saved, or what. But, I asked him just how much I had to do to get saved. I was asking only to show the fallacy of what he was saying.

 

[Eliyahu]

All Catholics may have to go to Purgatory or Inferno, while we true Christian believers go to Paradise and then eventually to the Heaven directly without need to go to Purgatory, because Jesus our Lord purged all the sins at the Cross, which is enough once for All.
Catholics may have to spend billion years in the Inferno until they realize they got wrong place !

We will enjoy the peace and joy forever with our Lord Jesus Christ in the Kingdom of God, while Purgatory believers are tormented forever in the purgatory which is actually Lake of Fire.

Many things will be done as the people believe.

 

[Lacy Evans]

The saved place their souls in Christ's hands.

Hebrews 10:30-31
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Diggin, got a question for you. One thing that the KJV translators do get right most of the time is the present tense. If you see a verb in the KJV that ends in "th", it's the present tense.

In this verse, "hear" and "believe" are both present, active, participles.

What happens when the one that is being talked about stops hearing and believing?

Oh, and you need to learn your tenses a little bit better.

In 1 John 5:12, the first "hath" is a present, active, participle; the second "hath" is a present, active, indicative; the third "hath" is a present, active, participle; the fourth "hath" is a present, active, indicative. The past tense cannot be stopped; it has already happened. (Actually, it would be aorist, and aorist is not always past tense. It is punctiliar, but usually translated in the past tense.) The present tense can stop.

News Flash!!!!

A Child of God is not going to stop believing in Him.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

BTW, it wasn't J. Jump that made this claim, it was Diggin in the Word that said you have to commit this stuff in order to be saved. I'm not sure if he meant to get saved, stay saved, or what. But, I asked him just how much I had to do to get saved. I was asking only to show the fallacy of what he was saying.

Again, since the word 'believe' in Acts 16:31 carries with it the meaning, 'to commit oneself to', then to believe in Jesus Christ requires committment.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Hebrews 10:30-31
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

It is fearful to fall into God's hands for the unsaved. For the saved, it is not fearful.

Also, placing oneself into God's hands is different than falling into His hands.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Again, since the word 'believe' in Acts 16:31 carries with it the meaning, 'to commit oneself to', then to believe in Jesus Christ requires committment.

Then I would suggest that you put down the concordance and get a lexicon. I only have access to a few, but none of them give that definition for "believe" in the aorist, although they all give that as one definition when it is used in a transitive sense.

For the aorist, they give, "to believe, give credit to, have a mental persuasion, be of opinion, to believe in or on".

Which is precisely what we've been saying.

You are saved by "believe" [aorist verb]; you walk by "faith" [noun; "believe" as a present, active, participle can be used as a noun].

You don't have to work to be saved. You can preach that you have to all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

To be saved, all you have to do is "believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved".

 

[Hope of Glory]

News Flash!!!!

A Child of God is not going to stop believing in Him.

I sure wish God hadn't messed up and wasted all that space in the Bible warning about a child of God who stops believing, then. I wonder why he spent so much space warning about somethign that won't happen?

 

[J. Jump]

It is fearful to fall into God's hands for the unsaved. For the saved, it is not fearful.

Well seeings that this was written to saved folks and the "unsaved" aren't even in the picture contextually it is dealing with saved folks and telling saved folks that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God!

If you want to believe that you can go out and do whatever your heart desires and still think you are going to be okay well more power to you, but it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God! And fear is the beginning of wisdom.

If you don't fear the Lord, well then . . . . . .

 

[J. Jump]

I sure wish God hadn't messed up and wasted all that space in the Bible warning about a child of God who stops believing, then. I wonder why he spent so much space warning about somethign that won't happen?

Yeah it's amazing the things that you can come up with when all you have to do is say well I know it's written to believers, but it certainly can't be speaking about them, it must be speaking about those unsaved folks.

And it amazes me that people think so much of the NT is written to a group of folks that can't even understand anything that is being discussed. Wonder why the Spirit would direct the authors of the NT to say so much about a group of people that can't even understand in the first place.

Why did He spend so much time guiding the words of the authors to speak to a group of saved people about the unsaved.

Why do I need to know so much about the unsaved when I'm saved. That just doesn't even make sense.

The only message the unsaved needs and can even understand is that they are sinners and that Christ died for them according to the Scriptires and if they believe (not commit) they WILL BE saved.

 

[BobRyan]

I sure wish God hadn't messed up and wasted all that space in the Bible warning about a child of God who stops believing, then. I wonder why he spent so much space warning about somethign that won't happen?

good point. Those Bible text become "more of God's Word to ignore" if you cling to OSAS instead of the Word of God.

Rom 2

:16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
…
25 for indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 so if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

Therefore the “loss of salvation” is seen whenever that state of salvation is explicitly seen to be revoked, when our acceptance and peace with God is denied by God.

#1. Turned over to Satan 1 Tim 1
#2. A certain terrifying expectation of Judgment to come – Heb 10
#3. Forgiveness revoked Matt 18 – old massive debt is now put back on us.
#4. Christ denying us 2Tim 2
#5. The shipwreck of faith 1 Tim 1
#6. Impossible to be renewed again having been partakers of the Holy Spirit Heb 6
Bound up to be burned – John 15, Heb 6
#7. Enslaved to sin again – as a dog that returns to its vomit



Turned over to Satan – in the shipwreck of faith

1Tim 1

18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them[/b] you fight the good fight,
19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be [b]taught not to blaspheme.

Denied by Christ instead of His “confessing us before God and His angels” –


[quote]2 Tim 2[/b]
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 [b]If we endure, we will also reign with Him; [b]If we deny[/B] Him, He also [b]will deny us;[/B]
13 [b]If we are faithless[/b], He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things[/b], and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
[/quote]

Soul bound by sin and under the condemnation of death

James 5

19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back[/b], let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Forgiveness revoked –

]Matt 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
[/quote]

Matt 18 <[

b]Forgiveness Revoked!>

29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5

Gal 5

4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

 

[BobRyan]

Simple questions for those that deny that these letters are applicable to the Gospel scope of the entire world –

#1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

#2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

2 Tim 2

10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

When some see that “Christ will deny us” if we make certain choices to deny Him – they respond with
“Well yeah but not so-s you would notice”
“well yeah – but that is deny in a good way”
“well maybe – but that is just if you accept the text literally”
“well yeah – but what if we pretend there is no mention of the Gospel context in 2Tim chapter 2?”

And certainly that is all “good gamesmanship – all for OSAS” but it is not exegesis – not even remotely!

Notice the words of Christ pre-cross are in full agreement with the words He gives to Paul post-cross. The eternal salvation context is also firmly established by Christ – just as we saw with Paul in 2Tim 2.

Matt 10
28"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
30"But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31"So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
32"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39"He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.


We see here a logical sequence. Paul starts with the role of evangelism – seeking the lost as God’s own (and not claiming to know which lost person will accept Christ and which one won’t).

He then goes to the goal and objective of evangelism – “That they ALSO may obtain salvation”. This means that the term “WE” is defined as those who like Paul ALSO accept salvation.

Paul takes the next logical step and shows that this group who “Died with Him” WILL also “Live with Him”. That is God’s purpose in saving the lost. Paul argues in Romans 6 that those who have died with Christ have died to self and to sin and must no longer LIVE in sin but must LIVE in freedom from slavery to sin.

Then Paul shows that within the SAME group “WE” we should see “endurance” and indeed there are those in that group that will endure – so “IF WE endure” we WILL reign with Him.

Notice that Paul does not say “SINCE we have died with Him and live with Him then NATURALLY we MUST endure. There is no other possibility”. Yet many believe that this unwritten statement is the “real truth” and there is no “IF WE endure” qualifier possible AS IF failure were even an option.

By taking that bias from their tradition they negate the force of the text.

Paul then says “IF WE deny Him” showing that in that group “WE” that died with Christ, that Live with Christ there are indeed those who will NOT endure – those who will “deny” Him. And when that happens Paul predicts the same “loss” that Christ predicted in Matt 18 “Forgiveness revoked”.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

I sure wish God hadn't messed up and wasted all that space in the Bible warning about a child of God who stops believing, then. I wonder why he spent so much space warning about somethign that won't happen?

Scripture please? And that one in Hebrews about one coming to the knowledge of the truth and falling away is not saying that one believed.

One can read history and not believe it. Why, there are some who say man never landed on the moon.