Protestant Purgatory?

[BobRyan]

It has been asked many times and it has yet to be given, but if your belief that everyone is okay after they are saved and that all Christians will enter the kingdom and all Christians will rule and reign with Christ can you please show me in Scripture where there is evidence of that in both the OT and the NT.

#1. There is no such thing as "OSAS" in the Bible. It is false doctrine.

#2. Romans 8:1 DOES show us that for those who ARE in Christ Jesus - there is now therefore NO condemnation. And Dan 7:22 shows that "Judgment is passed IN FAVOR of the saints" in the future judgment based on the deeds done in this body - and written in the books of Dan 7.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

We are "purified" the moment this body stops if we are true believers. There is no purgatory...protestant or catholic.

BTW, I would consider myself a Free Grace theologian. I agree with more than I disagree with, especially pertaining to soteriology.

At the 1Cor 15 resurrection (which is seen in 1Thess 4 and is called the FRIST resurrection in Rev 20:4-5) the mortal body is exchanged for an immortal one - the saints are glorified.

There is NO Purgatory awaiting the saints because the blood of Christ (not the works of man) is the ONLY thing that can cover the guilt of sin.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Blammo]

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

When I read Romans 7, I see myself wanting to do what I know in my mind to be right, but many times giving in to the flesh. That is why I continue in the faith grounded and settled, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

Christ died for my sins, He was buried, and he rose again the third day.

 

[BobRyan]

Rev. 21:27 And nothing unclean may come into it, or anyone whose works are cursed or false; but only those whose names are in the Lamb's book of life.

The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven.

The "corruptible" puts on "incorruption" 1Cor 15 AT the resurrection. That is where we lose the sinful nature. The sinful nature is inherited and is the source of "propensity to sin".

Done.

There is NO purgatory "of works" or anything else for the saints.

There is NO opportunity to "get right with God" after death. IT IS in THIS LIFE that you must choose Christ and be born again "the NEW creation" is done in THIS life!

1John 2 "He who SAYS He knows Christ and does not walk as Christ walked - is a liar".

No Purgatory for the saints.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[James_Newman]

works salvation

 

[BobRyan]

Matt. 5:48 - Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect or I will burn you in purifying fire after you die until you DO become just as clean and pure and perfect as God THEN I will let ou into heaven.

The text "imagined so faithfully" by our RC brethren - does not exist.


Matt. 12:32 – And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

That is NOT a promise of "eternal life" for those wicked who do what is warned against -- as hard as that is to believe for those who trust in man-made traditions such as purgatory.

Jesus clearly states "NO forgiveness" but those who seek to twist it - claim that Jesus is describing NON-forgiveness in THIS life followed by FORGIVENESS in the next.

Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death.

Pure eisegesis friends.

1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
EACH MAN HAS A FOUNDATION WHICH IS LAID BY JESUS CHRIST.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; OVER THE COURSE OF MAN'S LIFE HE ADDS GOOD WORKS OF GOD (gold, silver, precious stones) AND MAN ALSO ADDS SIN AND BAD WORKS OF SATAN(wood, hay, stubble).

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. THIS TIME OF MANIFESTATION ON THE DAY DOES NOT OCCUR WHILE THE PERSON IS ALIVE. IT OCCURS AFTER DEATH. GOD'S PURIFYING LOVE FIRE WILL TEST WHAT IS BUILT ON THE FOUNDATION [/B](Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation of purfication, or damnation in hell).

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. MAN WILL BE AWARDED IF HE HAS gold, silver, precious stones, FOR THESE WILL NOT BE CONSUMED.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. MAN WILL SUFFER LOSS IF HE HAS wood, hay, stubble TO BE BURNED AND IF HE HAS gold, silver, precious stones LEFTOVER HE WILL BE SAVED.

This text says NOTHING about the PERSON being burned or tormented.

This text says NOTHING about the Person "having to DIE before his works are burned"

This text ONLY points to the fruit - the works of the person which 1Cor 3 says "explicitly" is the TEACHING. It speaks of doctrine that is not PURE being burned away for as the text says "NTHER PETRA can anyone lay than that which has been laid - Jesus Christ"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Inquiring Mind]

We don't really believe that unfaithful believers go to be purified. Perhaps that may be one way to look at it, but it is certainly not for the completion of our salvation.

What is an unfaithful believer? Let me give you an example:

Let's say you are watching TV news and they are showing the bodies and partial bodies of a dozen or so children that are victims of a Terrorist bombing. Instantly you have feelings of anger and a feelings for revenge.

You have already sinned in your heart with the anger.
You have already sinned in your heart with the desire for revenge.

Then all of a sudden, you die of a heart attack.

You have died in a state of sin.

Are you then an unfaithful believer?

Is the sin in your heart enough to condemn you to hell?

I think 1 Cor 3:10-15 concept of purification will allow you to be saved. You're lifelong building on the foundation of Christ has created Gold, Silver, and precious metals. But you died with some wood, hay, and stubble( this anger and need for revenge ). I believe God will purge you with his loving fire before he lets you standfast in heaven.

Your belief contends that you will go straight to hell.


You may claim, you don't sin. Just about everyone sins everyday and don't even know it.

Did you go to a movie last weekend? If yes? How long? 2 hours? If so on that same day, did you give God at least 2 hours in prayer to HIM? If not you love the movie more then you love God. You have broken the first commandment.

Did you play golf last weekend? If yes? How long? 2 hours? If so on that same day, did you give God at least 2 hours in prayer to HIM? If not you love golf more then you love God. You have broken the first commandment.

The Bible tells us to obey those that are placed in charge of us. 99% of people speed everyday. Those speed limits are laws placed by those God has put over us. You break the speeding laws, you are sinning. PERIOD. Should you go to hell for that little sin? NO! Purification takes cares of the imperfectness of us.

 

[James_Newman]

Your belief contends that you will go straight to hell.

I don't think you have any clue what I believe, IM. But we can easily show from scripture that this is false.

Matthew 5:19-20
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

There are some sins that will cause you to have a lower position in the kingdom, and there are some sins that will cause you to miss the kingdom. But regardless of whether a believer enters the kingdom or not, they will still be raised up on the last day. We are talking about a reward according to works, you are talking about suffering to complete your salvation.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

This text says NOTHING about the PERSON being burned or tormented.

This text says NOTHING about the Person "having to DIE before his works are burned"

in Christ,

Bob

Really now?

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Your works are a part of your person. You mind contains the information concerning those works that you did or did not do.

No one is righteous on the is earth. No one is Good on this earth. No one is perfect on this Earth.

God is perfect. We are not. So when do we become perfect? After we have died provided our sins are not sufficient to cause us a straight trip to hell.

But again, SDAs don't believe in hell. So why are you arguing here about purgatory when you believe your soul goes to sleep?

 

[Amy.G]

Well, It's for sure I'm not as knowledgeable as you guys. And I probably should just keep my thoughts to myself :laugh: . But this scripture came to my mind in reading the other posts Philppians 1:21-23. Do you think Paul believed in any kind of purgatory? Why would he say that being with Christ is far better than living on this earth? Paul says that dying means being with Christ. If I thought that when I die God was going to burn the badness out of me until I was purified I might want to just stay here on earth. Personally, I trust in Christ's payment (in full) for my sin and have confidence (1 John 5:13) in being with Him immediatley upon my death.
Blessings

 

[Inquiring Mind]

There are some sins that will cause you to have a lower position in the kingdom, and there are some sins that will cause you to miss the kingdom. But regardless of whether a believer enters the kingdom or not, they will still be raised up on the last day

Since those sins make you unclean, how do you enter Heaven? You must go thru the final purification process prior to entering permanently in heaven. This final purification process is decribed in 1 Cor 3:10-15 and some other places.

 

[James_Newman]

Well, It's for sure I'm not as knowledgeable as you guys. And I probably should just keep my thoughts to myself :laugh: . But this scripture came to my mind in reading the other posts Philppians 1:21-23. Do you think Paul believed in any kind of purgatory? Why would he say that being with Christ is far better than living on this earth? Paul says that dying means being with Christ. If I thought that when I die God was going to burn the badness out of me until I was purified I might want to just stay here on earth. Personally, I trust in Christ's payment (in full) for my sin and have confidence (1 John 5:13) in being with Him immediatley upon my death.
Blessings

Hi Amy. Thats a reasonable question. Whether or not Paul implies that a believer immediately goes to be with Christ upon death is debatable. But one thing is for sure, at a certain point in time, all believers will appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:9-11
9 Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

There is something called the terror of the Lord that Paul warns about. He says we labor that we may be accepted of him. Conversely if we labor not, we will not be accepted. We will receive the things done in the body, whether good or bad. This is not talking about our eternal salvation, which is by grace through faith. This is talking about reward according to works for the believer.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Well, It's for sure I'm not as knowledgeable as you guys. And I probably should just keep my thoughts to myself :laugh: . But this scripture came to my mind in reading the other posts Philppians 1:21-23. Do you think Paul believed in any kind of purgatory? Why would he say that being with Christ is far better than living on this earth? Paul says that dying means being with Christ. If I thought that when I die God was going to burn the badness out of me until I was purified I might want to just stay here on earth. Personally, I trust in Christ's payment (in full) for my sin and have confidence (1 John 5:13) in being with Him immediatley upon my death.
Blessings

Amy are you perfect? Are you clean enough to enter heaven if you died right now? You don't suffer from any shortcomings? Do you give God more time in prayer on any one day than what you do for something else?

Do you watch TV for pleasure during primetime for 3 hours? On that day that you watched TV for 3 hours, did you give at least 3 hours to God in prayer and worship?

Here is one for all of you, most of you here are at work. How much time are giving to this board? Is it more than your allotted time for break? If so, you are stealing from your employer. If you died right now with the stain of theft on your soul, where would you go?

 

[James_Newman]

Since those sins make you unclean, how do you enter Heaven? You must go thru the final purification process prior to entering permanently in heaven. This final purification process is decribed in 1 Cor 3:10-15 and some other places.

Well for one, I don't believe 'heaven' is the final destination for the eternally secure believer, but If by heaven you mean the eternal life entered into on the last day, I don't believe any purification is necessary. The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin, and there is no further work to be done. Now in regard to the reward of the kingdom, we must live obediently to Christ in order to obtain that reward. But failing to do so is not to be construed as paying for your sins so that you may have eternal life. That debt is already paid.

 

[James_Newman]

Amy are you perfect? Are you clean enough to enter heaven if you died right now? You don't suffer from any shortcomings? Do you give God more time in prayer on any one day than what you do for something else?

Do you watch TV for pleasure during primetime for 3 hours? On that day that you watched TV for 3 hours, did you give at least 3 hours to God in prayer and worship?

Here is one for all of you, most of you here are at work. How much time are giving to this board? Is it more than your allotted time for break? If so, you are stealing from your employer. If you died right now with the stain of theft on your soul, where would you go?

You have more than adequately shown that we are all sinners. Now when will you believe that the blood of Christ paid for those sins? Because believe me, if the blood didn't remove those stains then they aren't coming off.

 

[Hope of Glory]

We are "purified" the moment this body stops if we are true believers.

So, it really doesn't matter how we live?

Or, do we have a works-based spiritual salvation?

 

[Hope of Glory]

There is NO "Protestant Purgatory" for those who reject the man-made tradition of OSAS. 2Cor 5:10 is not talking about "protestant Purgatory" it is talking about heaven vs hell.

In Christ,

Bob

I read a book on the Kingdom by a man recently who also confused the Kingdom with spiritual salvation. But, instead of turning a blind eye to the warnings about the possibility of losing those rewards, all he saw was the warnings about the possibility of missing out.

So, in opposition to those who hold OSAS (which is a biblical fact, unless you think the Bible contains errors), but turn a blind eye to the warnings, he taught that spiritual salvation could be forfeited, using the exact same verses that those here use.

Ironically, he had some very thoughtul insights, as long as you remember that he held to the completely man-made doctrine that spiritual salvation can be lost.

 

[Hope of Glory]

God help us! Because if Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, then not one person breathing will enter the kingdom according to the KE proponents.

As long as we live in this earthly tabernacle, we have the propensity to sin. Every man, woman and child apparently will be cast out if that is the case.

No thank you. I will continue to believe the Word of God and hold to the fact that when Christ appears, I will be accepted of Him because I accepted His payment for my sin. And, as pointed out by another poster, I will be like Him for I shall see Him as He is.

In a moment, we who are His will be changed. Mortality will put on immortality and corruption will put on incorruption.

At that point, those who have placed their trust in Christ Jesus and His sacrificial atonement for sin will no longer have the sin nature. Until that day that Christ returns, we will be subject to fall, we will sin. If any man say he has no sin, he is a liar. But, when we sin, we have an advocate with God, Jesus Christ the Righteous.

If He pleads our case before the Father while we are on this earth now, how much more shall He love us when we meet Him face to face!

I will not post the Scripture from the OT again that show we will not be cast away. That has been done before and the KE proponents do nothing but accuse of cherry-picking. Well, I used to live on a farm years ago and am reminded that when a farmer goes out to pick fruit for market or for a pie, he or she only picks the best.

If I cherry-picked the verses that prove KE doctrine is hogwash, then I say those who truly are hungry for God's Word sit down and have some great cherry cobbler.

Glory hallelujah! It doesn't matter how you live! Just think how many more people will get saved when they find out they're not even expected to live right!

Now, if we could just get them to edit out those pesky verses that warn and exhort believers, because they simply confuse the issue!

 

[Inquiring Mind]

You have more than adequately shown that we are all sinners. Now when will you believe that the blood of Christ paid for those sins? Because believe me, if the blood didn't remove those stains then they aren't coming off.

The Blood of Christ was for the forgiveness of Sins. Christ died on the cross so that All Sins could be forgiven. Did the redemptive work do away with the need for punishment of the Sin?

If so, why do we have a penal system in a Jesus oriented system?


Example: A child breaks the neighbors window.

Confession: Child tells the neighbor he/she is sorry, and they they are the ones that broke the window.

Forgiveness: The neighbor tells the child that they forgive them.

Punishment: Mom and Dad pay for the replacement window, but make the child do some extra chores around the house to make up the cost of the window.



Somewhere "The wages of Sin is death" has to come into play somewhere.


I think Jesus gave us an example that all Sin has to be paid for:

Matt 5: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

 

[Hope of Glory]

#1. There is no such thing as "OSAS" in the Bible. It is false doctrine.

Then, you believe that the Scriptures contain errors. What other errors does the Bible contain?

There is one passage that the question of "What must I do to be saved?" is both asked and answered. Know what the answer is?

"Believe [aorist; punctiliar action] on the Lord Jesus and you will [indicative; it will happen; there is no maybe] be saved."

#2. Romans 8:1 DOES show us that for those who ARE in Christ Jesus - there is now therefore NO condemnation. And Dan 7:22 shows that "Judgment is passed IN FAVOR of the saints" in the future judgment based on the deeds done in this body - and written in the books of Dan 7.

You left out a very important word, but that's OK. Many people on both sides of this issue leave it out, as it's very inconvenient to supporting the all-or-nothing aspect of their particular flavor of Kingdom doctrine:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore NOW no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

As to Daniel 7:22, you state it yourself: It's talking about saints, not every saved person.