Protestant Purgatory?

[Inquiring Mind]

Of course He can.

And wouldn't that be a Purification?

 

[Blammo]

Amen! And, as we're told in 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

What happens if we don't confess our sins?

This?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[James_Newman]

And wouldn't that be a Purification?

No. That would be reaping what you sow.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

No. That would be reaping what you sow.

A rose is a rose is a rose, by any other name, it is still a rose.

 

[James_Newman]

Let me clarify my position, just in case anyone is thoroughly confused at this point. The Roman doctrine of Purgatory and the doctrine of Millennial Exclusion have a similar appearance on the surface because the doctrine of purgatory is a subtle perversion of the truth, much as the mass is a subtle perversion of the Lord's supper.

The doctrine of purgatory fits right in with the Catholic works salvation (why, didn't you know you have to be good to even get to go to purgatory!) in which the practicioner gets to complete his own salvation by doing things in addition to the work of Christ on the cross. The final work is suffering while having your sin purged from your body and then you can enter into heaven.

The doctrine of Millennial Exclusion teaches that a believer is eternally secure right this very minute, there is nothing that has to be done to be saved. I don't have to go to church and confess my sins and say hail marys and eat fish on friday. The work was finished on the cross and I have been accepted into the household of God on the merit of Chrst alone. And not only that, but I have been offered a reward, an inheritance, if I will live the way God wants me to live. I have a promise that if I suffer in this life for Him, I will reign in the world to come with Him. And if I choose to despise this reward and instead of suffering for the kingdom, I decide to spend my life pleasing my flesh and living like the devil, then I won't reign with Him but will instead spend a thousand years in hell. But my eternal security is not based on my suffering loss during the millennium. Millions of unsaved people will be suffering during this time, they aren't being purged of their sins any more than I will be. What I will be doing is reaping corruption for having sown to the flesh.

 

[James_Newman]

So purgatory is working for your salvation because Christ's atonement didn't do the job. Top that off with the idea that you can somehow pray or $pay$ someone out of purgatory and you can see why it was repugnant to the reformers. But they threw out the baby with the bathwater, because there is indeed a judgement to be feared for believers after death.

 

[James_Newman]

A rose is a rose is a rose, by any other name, it is still a rose.

Do you have a scripture to show that we are going to be purified from our sins in the flames of hell?

 

[webdog]

Amy are you perfect? Are you clean enough to enter heaven if you died right now?

If she's in Christ, she's as white as snow. You espouse a works based catholic salvation which is contrary to Scripture.

 

[webdog]

So, it really doesn't matter how we live?

Or, do we have a works-based spiritual salvation?

We're talking about works leading to reward, not entrance.
It does matter how we live, hence the Bema Seat.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Do you have a scripture to show that we are going to be purified from our sins in the flames of hell?

Who said anything about the flames of hell. I am talking about being purged and purfified by God's love.

You still have not answered the question.

If I don't turn myself in to the authorties after murder, you said I would go to hell instead of heaven. Clarifiy your justification for this statement if I have indeed confessed my sin to Jesus Christ and he has forgiven me. Why do I need to turn my self in? And if I don't, I will go to hell instead of heave in lieu of the fact that Jesus has forgiven all my sins. Jesus has made atonement for all sins.

HOW AM I GOING TO HELL FOR NOT TURNING MYSELF IN.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

If she's in Christ, she's as white as snow. You espouse a works based catholic salvation which is contrary to Scripture.

Are you perfect as God is perfect?

Answer is either yes or no.

Stop beating around the bush with evasive answers.

 

[J. Jump]

Wow I go get a haircut with my son and there are already eight pages

 

[Inquiring Mind]

2 by my settings.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

If she's in Christ, she's as white as snow. You espouse a works based catholic salvation which is contrary to Scripture.

Please prove to me that the RCCs teach works based salvation.

Paul tells us: "For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality" (Rom. 2:6–11; cf. Gal. 6:6–10).

In the second century, the technical Latin term for "merit" was introduced as a synonym for the Greek word for "reward." Thus merit and reward are two sides of the same coin.

Protestants often misunderstand the Catholic teaching on merit, thinking that Catholics believe that one must do good works to come to God and be saved. This is exactly the opposite of what the Church teaches. The Council of Trent stressed: "[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace" (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).

The Catholic Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense—mere man cannot (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007). The most merit humans can have is condign—when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus God’s grace and his promise form the foundation for all human merit (CCC 2008).

Virtually all of this is agreed to by Protestants, who recognize that, under the impetus of God’s grace, Christians do perform acts which are pleasing to God and which God has promised to reward, meaning that they fit the definition of merit. When faced with this, Protestants are forced to admit the truth of the Catholic position—although, contrary to Paul’s command (2 Tim. 2:14), they may still dispute the terminology.

Thus the Lutheran Book of Concord admits: "We are not putting forward an empty quibble about the term ‘reward.’ . . . We grant that eternal life is a reward because it is something that is owed—not because of our merits [in the strict sense] but because of the promise [of God]. We have shown above that justification is strictly a gift of God; it is a thing promised. To this gift the promise of eternal life has been added" (p. 162).

 

[James_Newman]

Who said anything about the flames of hell. I am talking about being purged and purfified by God's love.

You still have not answered the question.

If I don't turn myself in to the authorties after murder, you said I would go to hell instead of heaven. Clarifiy your justification for this statement if I have indeed confessed my sin to Jesus Christ and he has forgiven me. Why do I need to turn my self in? And if I don't, I will go to hell instead of heave in lieu of the fact that Jesus has forgiven all my sins. Jesus has made atonement for all sins.

HOW AM I GOING TO HELL FOR NOT TURNING MYSELF IN.

How should I know, I'm not your judge. I said I thought you should, but if you feel you have made peace with God about your murder, do what you want. But the bible says murderers will not inherit the kingdom. If you don't inherit the kingdom for your murder, you go to hell. I don't know of any in-between places. You quoted the scripture yourself I believe...

1 John 3:20-21
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Is it right to commit murder and then secretly repent of it? Would your heart not condemn you? Better yet, just don't commit murder.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

How should I know, I'm not your judge. I said I thought you should, but if you feel you have made peace with God about your murder, do what you want. But the bible says murderers will not inherit the kingdom. If you don't inherit the kingdom for your murder, you go to hell. I don't know of any in-between places. You quoted the scripture yourself I believe...

1 John 3:20-21
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Is it right to commit murder and then secretly repent of it? Would your heart not condemn you? Better yet, just don't commit murder.

I asked a hypothetical question. And I can't get a biblical answer. Instead I get a lot of dancing and acrobatics and evasive tactics.

 

[James_Newman]

I'm not sure what answer you want me to give you. Where do you suppose the bible addresses this hypothetical of yours? I can only give you what the bible says.

 

[James_Newman]

Luke 19:8-9
8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Zacchaeus brought forth fruits meet for repentance. What should a murderer do to bring forth fruits meet for repentance?

 

[Inquiring Mind]

So lets go over the scenario again.

1. Person A kills person B.
2. Person A feels remorse over killing person B
3. Person A asks Jesus to forgive him of the sin.
4. Jesus does so.
5. Person A has two options:

6A. Turn himself in and let God's appointed people mete out the punishment and then go to heaven after death.
6B. Keep quiet since it is only between him and Jesus coupled with the fact that Jesus has wiped the slate clean and he is white as snow now and let Jesus mete out the punishment after death and then go to heaven.

Questions are?

Does sin require a punishment regardless of it's severity or has Jesus' redemptive work on the cross negates any need for punishment?

Does the person go to hell for not turning himself over after confessing to God a serious Sin such a murder.

Is not the repentive heart enough for God and everybody so that turning oneself is not neccessary?

And don't give the garbage that a truely repentive person would turn himself in. That's just an evasive answer.

 

[webdog]

Are you perfect as God is perfect?

Answer is either yes or no.

Stop beating around the bush with evasive answers.

Quit changing questions (and adding your own strawmen) and it won't seem like my answers are evasive.