Protestant Purgatory?

[Eliyahu]

1) How was the Robber at the Cross? Did he go to the Paradise first and then went to Purgatory later ? Or did he go to the Purgatory for some hours and then went to Paradise along with Jesus?
Today you shall be in Paradise with me !
How miserable the Purgatory believers are ! More miserable than the Robber at the Cross

2) If the dead believers are sleeping and then waken up when Jesus comes to this world the second time, when do the people pass thru Purgatory ? ( Read 1 Cor 15:2-25)

3) From the Purgatory, when they are rescued from there, are they purified by the prayers and almsgiving by their descendants and family members?
Even our own behaviors and good works couldn't mean anything to God, our own good works couldn't save us at all ( Eph 2:8), now do we have to rely on the prayers of others and other relatives ? Ridiculous !
Nothing but the Blood of Jesus could save us!
If the people in Purgatory could escape there by relying on Blood of Jesus, why don't they do so on this earth now?
Jesus paid all the price for our sins ONCE FOR ALL !

Purgatory theory is the hoax by Roman Catholics who are not confident with their own salvation, who have no belief, no conviction that Death of Jesus at the Cross redeemed themselves from the sins.

 

[James_Newman]

I would hope by now some people can see that calling Millennial Exclusion 'Purgatory' is nothing but a slander. Might as well say that spanking my child for disobedience is Purgatory, because I make him pay for his sins and purchase the privilege of being my son.

 

[webdog]

Might as well say that spanking my child for disobedience is Purgatory, because I make him pay for his sins and purchase the privilege of being my son.

ME is HARDLY spanking!!

As the saying goes...if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

 

[James_Newman]

Let me ask a question, Daffy. If Christ's payment for our sins, which fully atoned for our sins and requires no additional assistance from us in any way, somehow exempts us from any chastening at the judgment seat, why do we allow for chastening in this life? Why doesn't the blood cover our sins in regard to chastening in the here and now?

 

[DHK]

Well, you are correct that there is therefore now no condemnation...

But, I guess you must think that the passage in 1 John is pretty useless, since we don't have to confess our sins.

The context in Romans 8 is in reference to salvation. I never will receive condemnation for my sins. God has put them behind his back to remember them no more. They are buried in the depths of the deepest sea. They are as far as the east is from the west. There is no condemnation; none whatsoever. They are all under the blood--fully atoned for.

1John 1:9 is directed to believers. Read the context. It is speaking of a beliver's walk with God. "If I regard iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me" (Psm. 66:18). The same is true here. If I do not confess my sins to the Lord on a daily basis why should I expect the Lord to hear my prayers. I must maintain my fellowship with him on a daily basis. This has nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with our fellowship with God. This first chapter of John is speaking of our walk with God, not our salvation.
DHK

 

[Inquiring Mind]

The context in Romans 8 is in reference to salvation. I never will receive condemnation for my sins. God has put them behind his back to remember them no more. They are buried in the depths of the deepest sea. They are as far as the east is from the west. There is no condemnation; none whatsoever. They are all under the blood--fully atoned for.

1John 1:9 is directed to believers. Read the context. It is speaking of a beliver's walk with God. "If I regard iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me" (Psm. 66:18). The same is true here. If I do not confess my sins to the Lord on a daily basis why should I expect the Lord to hear my prayers. I must maintain my fellowship with him on a daily basis. This has nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with our fellowship with God. This first chapter of John is speaking of our walk with God, not our salvation.
DHK

I thought the Bible was written to all of mankind. Not to specifiic people. If you contend it is then, one could rightfully say that none of the epistles apply to us since they were written to specific churches.

 

[Blammo]

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

I don't think 1 John 1:9 is speaking of specific sins. In verses 8 and 10 it seems to me the context is sin in general. In other words, always be humble before God, never be prideful and self-righteous. If we continue to acknowledge the fact that we are sinners in need of forgiveness, our sins continue to be "under the blood".

 

[Inquiring Mind]

The context in Romans 8 is in reference to salvation. I never will receive condemnation for my sins. God has put them behind his back to remember them no more. They are buried in the depths of the deepest sea. They are as far as the east is from the west. There is no condemnation; none whatsoever. They are all under the blood--fully atoned for.

DHK

[1-13] After his warning in Romans 7 against the wrong route to fulfillment of the objective of holiness expressed in Romans 6:22, Paul points his addressees to the correct way. Through the redemptive work of Christ, Christians have been liberated from the terrible forces of sin and death. Holiness was impossible so long as the flesh (or our "old self"), that is, self-interested hostility toward God (Romans 8:7), frustrated the divine objectives expressed in the law. What is worse, sin used the law to break forth into all manner of lawlessness (Romans 8:8). All this is now changed. At the cross God broke the power of sin and pronounced sentence on it (Romans 8:3). Christians still retain the flesh, but it is alien to their new being, which is life in the spirit, namely the new self, governed by the holy Spirit. Under the direction of the holy Spirit Christians are able to fulfill the divine will that formerly found expression in the law (Romans 8:4). The same Spirit who enlivens Christians for holiness will also resurrect their bodies at the last day (Romans 8:11). Christian life is therefore the experience of a constant challenge to put to death the evil deeds of the body through life of the spirit (Romans 8:13).

[14-17] Christians, by reason of the Spirit's presence within them, enjoy not only new life but also a new relationship to God, that of adopted children and heirs through Christ, whose sufferings and glory they share.

[15] Abba: Father: an Aramaic term, here also translated by Mark, Jesus' special way of addressing God with filial intimacy. The word abba seems not to have been used in earlier or contemporaneous Jewish sources to address God without some qualifier. Cf Romans 8:15; Gal 4:6 for other occurrences of the Aramaic word in the Greek New Testament. Not what I will but what you will: note the complete obedient surrender of the human will of Jesus to the divine will of the Father; cf John 4:34; 8:29; Romans 5:19; Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 5:8.


[18-27] The glory that believers are destined to share with Christ far exceeds the sufferings of the present life. Paul considers the destiny of the created world to be linked with the future that belongs to the believers. As it shares in the penalty of corrup tion brought about by sin, so also will it share in the benefits of redemption and future glory that comprise the ultimate liberation of God's people (Romans 8:19-22). After patient endurance in steadfast expectation, the full harvest of the Spirit's presence will be realized. On earth believers enjoy the firstfruits, i.e., the Spirit, as a guarantee of the total liberation of their bodies from the influence of the rebellious old self (Romans 8:23).

[28-30] These verses outline the Christian vocation as it was designed by God: to be conformed to the image of his Son, who is to be the firstborn among many brothers (Romans 8:29). God's redemptive action on behalf of the believers has been in process before the beginning of the world. Those whom God chooses are those he foreknew (Romans 8:29) or elected. Those who are called (Romans 8:30) are predestined or predetermined. These expressions do not mean that God is arbitrary. Rather, Paul uses them to emphasize the thought and care that God has taken for the Christian's salvation.

[28] We know that all things work for good for those who love God: a few ancient authorities have God as the subject of the verb, and some translators render: "We know that God makes everything work for good for those who love God. . . ."

[29] Image: while man and woman were originally created in God's image (Genesis 1:26-27), it is through baptism into Christ, the image of God (2 Cor 4:4; Col 1:15), that we are renewed according to the image of the Creator (Col 3:10).

[31-39] The all-conquering power of God's love has overcome every obstacle to Christians' salvation and every threat to separate them from God. That power manifested itself fully when God's own Son was delivered up to death for their salvation. Through him Christians can overcome all their afflictions and trials.

[38] Present things and future things may refer to astrological data. Paul appears to be saying that the gospel liberates believers from dependence on astrologers.

[39] Height, depth may refer to positions in the zodiac, positions of heavenly bodies relative to the horizon. In astrological documents the term for "height" means "exaltation" or the position of greatest influence exerted by a planet. Since hostile spirits were associated with the planets and stars, Paul includes powers (Romans 8:38) in his list of malevolent forces.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

1John 1:9 is directed to believers. Read the context. It is speaking of a beliver's walk with God. "If I regard iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me" (Psm. 66:18). The same is true here. If I do not confess my sins to the Lord on a daily basis why should I expect the Lord to hear my prayers. I must maintain my fellowship with him on a daily basis. This has nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with our fellowship with God. This first chapter of John is speaking of our walk with God, not our salvation.
DHK

Romans [8-10]Denial of the condition of sin is self-deception and even contradictory of divine revelation; there is also the continual possibility of sin's recurrence. Forgiveness and deliverance from sin through Christ are assured through acknowledgment of them and repentance.

 

[DHK]

I thought the Bible was written to all of mankind. Not to specifiic people. If you contend it is then, one could rightfully say that none of the epistles apply to us since they were written to specific churches.

You are absolutely right. The epistles were written to specific churches, and therefore there are parts of some of those epistles that do not apply to us today. Each chapter and each verse must be taken in its historical context. One cannot blindly say that all the Bible applies to me today.

Example: How to find God's Will--Your instructions from the Bible.
1. Search the Scriptures, for they speak of me.
2. Judas went out and hung himself.
3. Go and do thou likewise.
4. What thou doest, do quickly.
5. If you love me keep my commandments.

Therefore if you love Jesus you will go out and quickly hang yourself.

We take the principles that Paul was teaching and apply them to our own situations. It is the principles that count. Context is important. Hermeneutics is very important. Who is writing? Who is he writig to. When did he write and under what conditions? What was his purpose in writing? What were the conditions: politically and otherwise at the time of his writing at that time? All such things must be taken into consideration before one ascertains the proper meaning of the text.
One does not simply deduce that because God spoke to Moses through a burning bush that that is the way he is going to speak to me. Not everything in the Bible is applicable to us. Just because Christ allowed Peter to walk on water doesn't mean that he will allow me to do the same thing, and I don't think that I will be attempting it any time soon.
In one of his epistles Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach''s sake and his oft infirmities. That doesn't apply to me.
It is customary in our society to greet one another with a handshake. It was customary in their society to greet each other with a kiss. Would like to try to change the custom back to Biblical times. What would your wife (if you are married) think of that?
DHK

 

[webdog]

Romans [8-10]Denial of the condition of sin is self-deception and even contradictory of divine revelation; there is also the continual possibility of sin's recurrence. Forgiveness and deliverance from sin through Christ are assured through acknowledgment of them and repentance.

You are mixing the sin nature with the new nature. Can the new nature and the Holy Spirit be corrupted by our sin?

 

[DHK]

Romans [8-10]Denial of the condition of sin is self-deception and even contradictory of divine revelation; there is also the continual possibility of sin's recurrence. Forgiveness and deliverance from sin through Christ are assured through acknowledgment of them and repentance.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

These are not my words but God's. You either believe the Bible or you don't. My sins are covered by the blood. I am justified in God's sight. What that means is when God looks down upon me he sees me "just as if I never sinned." He sees me as perfectly holy and just in his sight. In his sight I am perfect and just. Why? Christ paid the penalty for my sins. He fully atoned for them. There is nothing that I can do to add to the sacrifice that He paid. Nothing at all! Not baptism, not church membership, not any rite such as confirmation, nothing! Jesus paid it all! My sins are under the blood. I am clothed with his righteousness because I personally have accepted his sacrifice as an atonement for my sins. God no more sees my sin. He sees me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. I am sinless in His sight.
DHK

 

[James_Newman]

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

 

[James_Newman]

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

These are not my words but God's. You either believe the Bible or you don't. My sins are covered by the blood. I am justified in God's sight. What that means is when God looks down upon me he sees me "just as if I never sinned." He sees me as perfectly holy and just in his sight. In his sight I am perfect and just. Why? Christ paid the penalty for my sins. He fully atoned for them. There is nothing that I can do to add to the sacrifice that He paid. Nothing at all! Not baptism, not church membership, not any rite such as confirmation, nothing! Jesus paid it all! My sins are under the blood. I am clothed with his righteousness because I personally have accepted his sacrifice as an atonement for my sins. God no more sees my sin. He sees me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. I am sinless in His sight.
DHK

Maybe you can explain how God can chasten your sinless righteousness in this life?

 

[DHK]

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1. The last part of verse 8 is not in many translations.
2. However, assuming that it is, it is speaking of the contrast between the saved and unsaved. The flesh refers to the unsaved; the Spirit, the saved. I walk after the Spirit because I am saved. Look further on in the passage:

Romans 8:8-9 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If you don't have the Spirit of God you don't belong to Christ.
If you are in the flesh you cannot please God. It is an impossibility because you are outside of Christ. Thus the latter phrase of Romans 8:1 doesn't even apply to me. I am a believer in Christ.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

What is the answer?

I know you don't believe a saved person will ever go to the lake of fire. (Neither do I)

1 John 1:6-7: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

These two verses are talking about our walk and our fellowship; it's about works our communion.

"If we confess our sins..."

This phrase is conditional. Two letter; big word: IF. "Confess" is a present, active, subjunctive; it's linear action, not punctiliar action, and the subjunctive means there's the possibility that we won't continue in confessing our sins. How many people redefine "sin" in order to justify their works? And, this word "sins" is plural; they're multiple.

"he is faithful and just..."

Any doubts about this part?

"to forgive us our sins..."

Subjunctive, based on the conditional.

"and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Both "forgive" and "cleanse" are aorist, active. We're forgiven and we're cleansed, and he remembers them no more. It's done, as far as that sin is concerned.

This passage has nothing to do with getting saved or staying saved. It has to do with our fellowship; our walk. It is continuous action, and it shows that even though we're saved, we're still accountable for the sins in the flesh.

But, if he's faithful and just to forgive us our sins if we confess them, what do you think he's faithful and just to do if we don't confess them? How about if we live and active lifestyle of lawlessness?

 

[Hope of Glory]

The context in Romans 8 is in reference to salvation. I never will receive condemnation for my sins. God has put them behind his back to remember them no more. They are buried in the depths of the deepest sea. They are as far as the east is from the west. There is no condemnation; none whatsoever. They are all under the blood--fully atoned for.

Well, I reject the notion that this is in reference to spiritual salvation. If you subscribe to the Romans' Road, it's full of potholes.

But, there's no argument that when we're saved, we start with a clean slate. There's little argument that if we confess our sins, they will be forgiven completely and forever.

But, what about those that we don't confess? What about those that we commit willfully? Do you think he's simply going to say, "Oh, that's OK. I was just kidding about the confessing bit."

1John 1:9 is directed to believers.

Amen! Amen! And Amen! That's exactly what we've been saying.

As saved individuals, we will continue to sin, some more than others. We are responsible for those! They affect our walk; they affect our communion; they affect our fellowship!

They don't affect whether we are saved or not.

 

[DHK]

Maybe you can explain how God can chasten your sinless righteousness in this life?

Read Hebrews 12.
God chasten his children. Those who are not his children he does not chasten. That is very clear from Hebrews 12. As a father, I chasten my own children, and, glory be, they still remain my children. They will not, at any time, become someone else's children. They will always be my children no matter what happens to them--no matter how much I chasten them. I chasten them because I love them, and because they are my children. When they sin, do wrong, hurt me in some way, that is offend me--I will chasten them or discipline them.
And so it is with God. God will chasten me on this earth and this earth only. I will not chasten my children after they are married, and Christ will not chasten his children after they are married at the marriage supper of the lamb. As they grow up as children under my roof they will receive chastening. As we grow up as children on this earth we will receive chastening from the Lord--on this earth. before the coming of Christ. It has nothing to do with the Millennial Kingdom. Chastening may come in the form of difficult circumstances, financial loss, or other such things. In severe cases, it may even result in death as it did in the lives of Ananias and Sapphira. For examples of chastening read 1Cor.11:30.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

I thought the Bible was written to all of mankind. Not to specifiic people. If you contend it is then, one could rightfully say that none of the epistles apply to us since they were written to specific churches.

Well, if an epistle is prefaces to "saints who are faithful brethren", you can pretty much rule out unsaved people, and you can even rule out unfaithful brethren.

But, you can more specifically rule out that they are concerning spiritual salvation; when prefaced to "saints who are faithful brethren", and the second person is used (or first person singular or plural), then they are instructions about how we are to walk, not how we are to get all saved up.

 

[Blammo]

1 John 1:6-7: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

These two verses are talking about our walk and our fellowship; it's about works our communion.

"If we confess our sins..."

This phrase is conditional. Two letter; big word: IF. "Confess" is a present, active, subjunctive; it's linear action, not punctiliar action, and the subjunctive means there's the possibility that we won't continue in confessing our sins. How many people redefine "sin" in order to justify their works? And, this word "sins" is plural; they're multiple.

"he is faithful and just..."

Any doubts about this part?

"to forgive us our sins..."

Subjunctive, based on the conditional.

"and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Both "forgive" and "cleanse" are aorist, active. We're forgiven and we're cleansed, and he remembers them no more. It's done, as far as that sin is concerned.

This passage has nothing to do with getting saved or staying saved. It has to do with our fellowship; our walk. It is continuous action, and it shows that even though we're saved, we're still accountable for the sins in the flesh.

But, if he's faithful and just to forgive us our sins if we confess them, what do you think he's faithful and just to do if we don't confess them? How about if we live and active lifestyle of lawlessness?

I don't disagree with anything in the above quote. What have I said that made you think I needed that lesson?