Protestant Purgatory?

[Hope of Glory]

1. The last part of verse 8 is not in many translations.

Yes, it was apparently added as a note, and then the next person who copied it included it in the manuscript.

2. However, assuming that it is, it is speaking of the contrast between the saved and unsaved.

What about saved people who walk after the flesh?

 

[James_Newman]

Read Hebrews 12.
God chasten his children. Those who are not his children he does not chasten.

But what for does He chasten them, if he looks down and can only see Jesus? Is Jesus sinning?

That is very clear from Hebrews 12. As a father, I chasten my own children, and, glory be, they still remain my children. They will not, at any time, become someone else's children. They will always be my children no matter what happens to them--no matter how much I chasten them.

Well I can agree with this. Even if you chasten them after death, they will still be your children.

I chasten them because I love them, and because they are my children. When they sin, do wrong, hurt me in some way, that is offend me--I will chasten them or discipline them.
And so it is with God. God will chasten me on this earth

So far so good...

and this earth only.

OK, now I would like some scripture to back this up.

I will not chasten my children after they are married, and Christ will not chasten his children after they are married at the marriage supper of the lamb. As they grow up as children under my roof they will receive chastening. As we grow up as children on this earth we will receive chastening from the Lord--on this earth. before the coming of Christ. It has nothing to do with the Millennial Kingdom. Chastening may come in the form of difficult circumstances, financial loss, or other such things. In severe cases, it may even result in death as it did in the lives of Ananias and Sapphira. For examples of chastening read 1Cor.11:30.
DHK

Show me where you are going to be married to Jesus at the marriage supper of the Lamb, and the Father is not going to chastise any Christians after death.

 

[DHK]

Well, I reject the notion that this is in reference to spiritual salvation. If you subscribe to the Romans' Road, it's full of potholes.

But, there's no argument that when we're saved, we start with a clean slate. There's little argument that if we confess our sins, they will be forgiven completely and forever.

But, what about those that we don't confess? What about those that we commit willfully? Do you think he's simply going to say, "Oh, that's OK. I was just kidding about the confessing bit."

If 1John 1:9 is directed to believers as you agree it is, then the unconfessed sins affect our walk with Christ and nothing more. You must agree with that. It does not affect our salvation. The verse is written to believers who cannot lose their salvation. Otherwise you are contradicting yourself.

Your argument above is the same argument as the RCC for purgatory. But what about unconfessed sin:
We have purgatory for that.
We have extreme unction for that.
We can pray the rosary to get you out of purgatory for that.

What kind of new doctrines are you entering into Scripture (that were never in Scripture in the first place).
So what about unconfessed sin. We shall all give account of ourselves before the judgement seat of Christ. Our accounts will be settled there. Some will lose reward, perhaps for that very thing.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

However it is more likely that Christ himself will intercede on our behalf. He has promised to do so. We have an advocate with the Father. He is the propitiation for our sins. Propitiation is covering. Our sins have been covered.
Your problem is that you are trying to use human reasoning to try to answer the questions that you don't understand instead of believing God at his word. I take the promises of God by faith and believe them.

God is not a man that he should repent, neither the son of man that he should lie. Hath he said, and shall he not do it? Hath he spoken and shall he not bring it to pass?
DHK

 

[DHK]

Well, if an epistle is prefaces to "saints who are faithful brethren", you can pretty much rule out unsaved people, and you can even rule out unfaithful brethren.

But, you can more specifically rule out that they are concerning spiritual salvation; when prefaced to "saints who are faithful brethren", and the second person is used (or first person singular or plural), then they are instructions about how we are to walk, not how we are to get all saved up.

No, not really. That is why you must ask the questions that I mentioned, like what is the purpose of the epistle.
Though Paul was writing to the believers in Rome the purpose of his writing was to expound to them the doctrine of salvation.
The epistle of Romans is the greatest treatise on the doctrine of soteriology (salvation) ever written. He expounds on every facet of salvation. Believers need to understand all about the doctrine of salvation. Just because they are saved doesn't mean that the doctrine of salvation is ignored in the New Testament.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

If 1John 1:9 is directed to believers as you agree it is, then the unconfessed sins affect our walk with Christ and nothing more. You must agree with that. It does not affect our salvation. The verse is written to believers who cannot lose their salvation. Otherwise you are contradicting yourself.

I challenge you to show where I've said anything other than this in regard to spiritual salvation.

You cannot show that I've ever said that it can be lost! Why? Because I've never said it! In fact, I've stated the exact opposite repeatedly.

I've stated repeatedly that this verse is to saved people! I've stated repeatedly that it is about our walk and our fellowship. It is about works!

I've stated repeatedly that our spiritual salvation cannot be lost or forfeited; it is completely dependent upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross and nothing else! (Although, in another thread, I did use some arguments from ForeverSettledinHeaven to try to get Linda, SFiC, Diggin and others to confront the passages that talk about works and create a contradiction if you apply it to being saved, but they simply continued with the "you're wrong because I (or some church) said so!" arguments. This idea that your spiritual salvation can be lost or forfeited should in no way be construed as a stance that I accept, though.)

Our spiritual salvation is completely separate from our works, whether to get saved, to stay saved, to prove we're saved, or anything else to do with our spiritual salvation. Works are works are works are works! I don't know how much more simply that can be stated, and can be stated repeatedly, and yet some people still say, "So, you're saying that you earn your salvation?"

This is why it is frustrating to have a debate here on this board! People continuously put words into your mouth that you've never said. Although, it doesn't surprise me when Linda, SFiC, and Diggin do it, it does surprise me that you would do it. I think that's all the arsenal they have, but you strike me as being intelligent and articulate. Perhaps there's just a misunderstanding that could be straightened out easily if you would simply re-read what has been posted.

 

[Hope of Glory]

No, not really. That is why you must ask the questions that I mentioned, like what is the purpose of the epistle.
Though Paul was writing to the believers in Rome the purpose of his writing was to expound to them the doctrine of salvation.
The epistle of Romans is the greatest treatise on the doctrine of soteriology (salvation) ever written. He expounds on every facet of salvation. Believers need to understand all about the doctrine of salvation. Just because they are saved doesn't mean that the doctrine of salvation is ignored in the New Testament.
DHK

If Romans is just about spiritual salvation, then we are saved by our works.

Although, I agree completely with the statement, "He expounds on every facet of salvation", I doubt that you mean the same thing that I do when I state it.

The answer to the question, "What must I do to be saved?" is simple and succinct, yet many people add works into the equation. To apply most of what Romans is talking about to spiritual salvation is to add works into the equation.

 

[DHK]

But what for does He chasten them, if he looks down and can only see Jesus? Is Jesus sinning?

You must be able to differentiate between the state of a beleiver (saved by grace, and saved eternally), and his walk with Christ. As a child of Christ I am chastened. David never ceased to be a man after God's own heart. But he was chastened of God when he committed adultery and murder.

Well I can agree with this. Even if you chasten them after death, they will still be your children.

This is ridiculous. How can you chasten a dead person? I would like to see that feat.

So far so good...

OK, now I would like some scripture to back this up.

Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
--We endure chastening at this present time, on this world, that it will yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness--still speaking of this world. Nothing is said about any world to come. Do you really think that there will be chastening in heaven. How will there be chastening in heaven if there is no sin in heaven. Then after some time in heaven Christ with the saints in heaven (Rev.19) will return to rule the world for a thousand years. Will they be chastized there after being in heaven??
No, the passage refers to the present time.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
--This is obviously speaking before heaven and before the Kingdom.

Show me where you are going to be married to Jesus at the marriage supper of the Lamb, and the Father is not going to chastise any Christians after death.

Ephesians 5:31-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Revelation 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write,
Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

For the believer there is only eternity after this. It is true there is the Kingdom Age. But how can there be chastisement after having received a glorified body and being in heaven where there is no sin? To think such is absurd.
DHK

 

[DHK]

I challenge you to show where I've said anything other than this in regard to spiritual salvation.

You cannot show that I've ever said that it can be lost! Why? Because I've never said it! In fact, I've stated the exact opposite repeatedly.

I've stated repeatedly that this verse is to saved people! I've stated repeatedly that it is about our walk and our fellowship. It is about works!

Here is where the confusion comes in.
In one post you seem to say that one cannot lose their salvation.
In another post you infer the exact opposite:

Originally Posted by Hope of Glory
Well, I reject the notion that this is in reference to spiritual salvation. If you subscribe to the Romans' Road, it's full of potholes.

But, there's no argument that when we're saved, we start with a clean slate. There's little argument that if we confess our sins, they will be forgiven completely and forever.

But, what about those that we don't confess? What about those that we commit willfully? Do you think he's simply going to say, "Oh, that's OK. I was just kidding about the confessing bit."

So what about unconfessed sin?
Your inference is that either we go to hell, or we face some kind of Baptist Purgatory for unconfessed sin, which is also not the same as OSAS. Either way it is a contradiction.
DHK

 

[James_Newman]

You must be able to differentiate between the state of a beleiver (saved by grace, and saved eternally), and his walk with Christ. As a child of Christ I am chastened. David never ceased to be a man after God's own heart. But he was chastened of God when he committed adultery and murder.

I agree, and what a chastening he received. If a man of God like David could fall into such sin and reap such a harvest, we ought to also take heed lest we fall.

This is ridiculous. How can you chasten a dead person? I would like to see that feat.

If you were God, it wouldn't be rediculous.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
--We endure chastening at this present time, on this world, that it will yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness--still speaking of this world. Nothing is said about any world to come. Do you really think that there will be chastening in heaven. How will there be chastening in heaven if there is no sin in heaven. Then after some time in heaven Christ with the saints in heaven (Rev.19) will return to rule the world for a thousand years. Will they be chastized there after being in heaven??
No, the passage refers to the present time.

Hebrews 12:5-7
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

The peacable fruit of righteousness follows when we patiently endure chastening. But what happens when we despise the chastening or faint when we are rebuked of Him? And this is no bar to chastening in the next life.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
--This is obviously speaking before heaven and before the Kingdom.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
This is speaking before the kingdom too.

Ephesians 5:31-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Revelation 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write,
Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

For the believer there is only eternity after this. It is true there is the Kingdom Age. But how can there be chastisement after having received a glorified body and being in heaven where there is no sin? To think such is absurd.
DHK

Ephesians 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

This also is speaking before the kingdom. It doesn't say sanctify and cleanse it with their death, it says the washing of water by the word. You must be sanctified and cleansed in this life by the word, or you will not be 'holy and without blemish.'

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Are we going to be automatically blameless at the coming of the Lord? Not according to the bible.

2 Peter 3:14
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Philippians 2:12-15
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

What of the marriage?

Revelation 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 19:7-8
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The bride is only going to be arrayed in the righteousness of the saints who have made themselves ready. She will not be wearing lukewarm Christians who are spotted with the flesh and the world.

Matthew 22:11-13
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[J. Jump]

However it is more likely that Christ himself will intercede on our behalf. He has promised to do so. We have an advocate with the Father.

DHK the problem with this statement is that when we stand before Christ at the bema judgment seat His role as High Priest will be over and He will be Judge at that point not Priest.

If we are to avail ourselves of His blood and have Him be our advocate before the Father that comes in this lifetime "before" we meet Him as Judge. When we stand before Him as Judge we can no longer tap into His ministry as High Priest.

You are correct in that people will suffer loss at the judgment seat, however the misconception is that people will lose what they have never possessed, which isn't entirely true. They will also lose what they have possessed (not spiritual salvation because that can not be lost) and that is their soul (their thought process, their agenda, their way of doing things, their wants, and desires, etc.).

What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but forfeits (loses) his own soul. That is a warning to believers.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The saved will not lose their souls, J.Jump (notice I am no longer calling you Jason).

The saved place their souls in Christ's hands. And Christ has promised to keep that which the saved have committed unto Him.

I rest assured that my soul is securely in the palm of His hand and no man, not even myself, can pluck me out of that hand.

 

[J. Jump]

The saved will not lose their souls

Well that's a nice saying and I'm sure it gives everyone the warm fuzzies, but I notice that you didn't provide any Scripture to back up that statement.

J.Jump (notice I am no longer calling you Jason)

Actually you just did, but I don't mind, just share your first name with everyone if we are on that type of basis. No harm, just share.

The saved place their souls in Christ's hands.

Sure they do if they are being obedient, faithful, overcomers, but if they are being disobedient, unfaithful, non-overcomers they are keeping their souls in their own hands.

For he who will lose his life (soul) now will find it in the coming age, but he who saves his life (soul) now will lose it in the coming age.

There's just not one shred of Biblical evidence that the soul is saved at the same point the spirit is saved. If there is please share it with us.

And Christ has promised to keep that which the saved have committed unto Him.

And that is true so long as you are being faithful, obedient and overcoming. And if you are not then you are not committing anything to Christ.

I rest assured that my soul is securely in the palm of His hand and no man, not even myself, can pluck me out of that hand.

Well Scripturally you just don't have a leg to stand on and your faith is that of a man building his house on the sand, because your faith is in something that isn't true.

I hope you are being faithful and obedient and overcoming. The concern that I have is that you as a pastor are misguiding your flock and telling them that they are all okay too even if they aren't being faithful, obedient and overcoming.

And by such you are giving them a license to hold on to their "life" in this life and that they will be okay in the next one as well.

So I guess what you are saying is that what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and yet lose his soul is really just a lie, becuase you really can gain all that this world has to offer and still save your soul in the coming age.

Sorry, but I believe Scripture warns me to not hold on to my life and that I can not live it any ole way I please and if I do there are severe consequences.

 

[DHK]

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

DHK,

Now ya done gone and done it Brother. Ya done gone and cherry-picked a verse out of the Word of God to prove that God keeps that which we commit to Him.

Shall we enjoy some Biblical Cherry Cobbler?

 

[BobRyan]

You guys are getting off too easy on that cherry picking expedition.

Time for some Bible light on the subject --

1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

Rom 2

:16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
…
25 for indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 so if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

1Tim 1

18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them[/b] you fight the good fight,
19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be [b]taught not to blaspheme.

Denied by Christ instead of His “confessing us before God and His angels” –


[quote]2 Tim 2[/b]
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 [b]If we endure, we will also reign with Him; [b]If we deny[/b] Him, He also [b]will deny us;[/b]
13 [b]If we are faithless[/b], He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things[/b], and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
[/quote]

Soul bound by sin and under the condemnation of death

James 5

19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back[/b], let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

 

[BobRyan]

Forgiveness revoked –

]Matt 18[/b]
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
[/quote]

Matt 18 <[

b]Forgiveness Revoked!>[/b]

29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5

Gal 5

4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Peace with God replaced by a certain terrifying expectation of judgment to come

Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.[/b]
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment[/b] do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[BobRyan]

26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

Though the slave undervalues his own debt and over-values his own ability to “repay” – the Lord has mercy on him anyway and “Forgives the Debt” – full and complete forgiveness in the scenario regarding “the Kingdom of Heaven”. This is key to the Arminian point.

But (as Christ points out in His model prayer of Matt 6) those who Are forgiven are under obligation to forgive others.

28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.

31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked”.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues that WE have been forgiven by our heavenly Father – and that HE will revoke Our forgiveness just as we see in this story and just as Christ claimed in Matt 6 If “we” do not persevere in showing the Same kind regard for forgiving our brothers.

Rather than God blaming Himself for our lack of perseverance or God claiming that HE failed to preserve us – HE charges that WE are under obligation to obey as He directs or be faced with “forgiveness revoked” just as it is really described in this chapter.

 

[J. Jump]

Ya done gone and cherry-picked a verse out of the Word of God to prove that God keeps that which we commit to Him.

That's EXACTLY right. God IS PERFECTLY ABLE to keep that which we commit to Him. The problem is you all think EVERYONE commits EVERYTHING to God at the moment of salvation. This verse DOES NOT in NO WAY shape or form prove your point.

What does the text say. God is able to keep that which I have committed to Him. And if I have not committed anything to Him then He has nothing to keep.

You guys got to quit adding to what Scripture says and just stop where Scripture stops.

If you want to prove your point then show me the Scripture passages that say EVERY Christian will commit their life to the Lord and they will die to self ALWAYS so that the Holy Spirit is in control. So me a Scripture where it says ALL Christians will ALWAYS walk by the Spirit.

It's just not there. You have pulled out a great verse that is 100% accurate, but you extend its meaning beyond its stated meaning. That's the issue.

Paul had committed his life to the Lord, and if we do then He will keep that which we have to committed, but if we decide to walk in the flesh instead of the Spirit then we aren't committing anything to Him are we.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

If you commit nothing to Him, you just ain't saved.

 

[Hope of Glory]

If you commit nothing to Him, you just ain't saved.

So, just how hard do I have to work to be saved? I want to be sure that I've earned it, ya know... Do I need to commit time, money, or both?

And here I thought Jesus did all that was necessary to secure my spiritual salvation.