Protestant Purgatory?

[Hope of Glory]

Indeed. SHeep vs Goats.

In Matt 7 it is those on the wide road vs those on the narrow road.

In Romans 2 it is those who inherit eternal life and those who go away into destruction of fire and brimstone.

In John 15 it is those who remain IN the vine of Christ and those that are removed from Christ - withered - dead - and then burned.

In Rom 11 it is those that remain by faith in Christ as branches "in Him" vs those without faith that are removed from Christ.

Hint: There is NO salvation outside of Christ.

In Rev 3 we see the two groups -- one as having Christ In fellowhip on the INSIDE - and the others separated from Christ with Christ on the OUTSIDE knocking.

OK, so you see a division among believers. Apparently some don't.

What does it mean to you?

 

[webdog]

When I was growing up on the farm, we had "vessels of dishonor" that we used, and we used them nightly...

Guess what?

They were our vessels. They weren't the neighbor's vessel or some stranger's vessel.

God's Word clearly states that God doesn't use a dirty vessel. I'm not sure where it is at the moment as I'm using my wife's laptop and don't have my Bible software.

 

[James_Newman]

The church at Laodicea was a church in name only. They practiced angel worship, gnosticism and judaism. Hardly qualities of a true church, hence the reason Christ "vomits" them out of His mouth. You mention the teachings of the modern church and how satan has deceived it, well this is one of those instances. Teaching on Rev. 3:20 has God rather having someone being lost or "on fire" for the Lord than in between. This is not what the text is saying. Knowledge of the aquduct system flowing into Laodicea puts this into proper perspective.

You say they were not a church? Thats strange, because they had a candlestick just like the other six churches.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Obviously God was not pleased with how they were behaving themselves, but they were a church. Jesus was rebuking them as a church.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Hebrews 12:5-8
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[webdog]

How many true churches you know have Christ on the OUTSIDE knocking to come in?

Notice the "buy from me's". Christ was offering them the spiritual counterparts to their industy. They were wealthy...but Christ was telling them that they really had nothing.

As far as verse 19, if you believe God hates people, I can see why you would state they have to be believers. It's clear that God chastens EVERYONE He love...the lost and His own alike. The text in Hebrews only goes to show this further. What happens to those who don't endure God's chastening? The text says IF they endure chastening, God deals with them as sons. If they don't? They are not sons...but were still chastened nonetheless.

 

[James_Newman]

Being a 'son' is not talking about family relationship so much as it is talking about recieving an inheritance.

Galatians 4:1-7
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

If we recieve chastening, then God deals with us as sons, meaning we will receive an inheritance. Otherwise, as bastards we do not receive the inheritance.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Oooh! Back to being saved by works again! Woo hoo!

Works, works, works... We got works! We're saved by works!

How do I know?

Diggin told me so!

How childish.

From what I see, Diggin is not saying we are saved by works, but by coming out of the works of the flesh. Diggin has said over and over that we are saved through faith and you accuse him of saying things he did not say.

Diggin's statement:

If any continue in the sins of Galatians 5 and 1 Corinthians 6 and do not repent of those sins, those are none of His. They are not saved.

says not one thing about a person being saved by works. You, Hope of Glory, need to quit letting your tongue and your heart be used by the devil.

 

[webdog]

Being a 'son' is not talking about family relationship so much as it is talking about recieving an inheritance.

Galatians 4:1-7
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

If we recieve chastening, then God deals with us as sons, meaning we will receive an inheritance. Otherwise, as bastards we do not receive the inheritance.

I've never heard of someone being called a son not being part of the family. At any rate, even if sons are not "family", they are chastend still, showing that God loves even those not part of the family.

 

[J. Jump]

Here is the Hebrews verse in question. And again we must remember Hebrews is written to "saved" individuals.

Hebrews 12:8: But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

So what is this saying to "saved" individuals? It is saying if you "a saved" individual are without discipline then you "a saved" individual are an illegitimate child and not a son.

So we see that they are still considered children (part of the family), but are not dealt with as sons, which has to do with inheritance.

It's ot talking about saved and unsaved. Only the saved are in view contextually.

 

[James_Newman]

I've never heard of someone being called a son not being part of the family. At any rate, even if sons are not "family", they are chastend still, showing that God loves even those not part of the family.

I'm not talking about sons who are not in the family, I'm talking about those in the family who are not sons.

 

[Blammo]

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Seems to me, we are either saved or we are not. Hebrews 12:8, much like 1John and 2Cor 13:5, is possibly just another verse written, not only to saved, but also to professed converts, to help them gain assurance either way.

 

[James_Newman]

Ah, my filthy rags. Blessed assurance!

 

[Blammo]

Ah, my filthy rags. Blessed assurance!

Paul said "examine yourselves", not me.
John said " these things have I written... that you may know...", not me.

I don't believe in my own good works for salvation, I do believe the Bible.

This whole subject can be very confusing:

"Yes, you are saved, but you are not saved saved, unless...."
"No, works are not required for salvation, but, they are required for further salvation..."

 

[webdog]

This whole subject can be very confusing:

"Yes, you are saved, but you are not saved saved, unless...."
"No, works are not required for salvation, but, they are required for further salvation..."

Amen :thumbs: A single moment in time of faith is all that's required for eternal life...but a lifetime of works is required to "live" for 1000 years?

 

[James_Newman]

It all works itself out when you rightly divide salvation.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Blammo,

God is not the author of confusion. Believe His Word, the Holy Bible. Don't fall for the errors that these guys are preaching.

All who are saved through faith in Christ will enter the kingdom. No exceptions.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

It all works itself out when you rightly divide salvation.

Rightly divide salvation? Did you do some kind of mind altering drug when you were young that has not wore off yet?

 

[Blammo]

It all works itself out when you rightly divide salvation.

It's not very clear, is there some super secret reason for that? Would God intentionaly hide this secret from most of the saved?

 

[James_Newman]

Blammo,

God is not the author of confusion. Believe His Word, the Holy Bible. Don't fall for the errors that these guys are preaching.

All who are saved through faith in Christ will enter the kingdom. No exceptions.

Except for the ones who don't have fruit, they aren't really saved. Examine yourself and make sure you really believe.

 

[webdog]

Here is the Hebrews verse in question. And again we must remember Hebrews is written to "saved" individuals.

Granted, but Hebrews was also written to mankind. Too many times a doctrine is made out of "who" the book was intended for, and not who it's intended for.

 

[webdog]

It all works itself out when you rightly divide salvation.

The Bible tells us to rightly divide the Word...not salvation.