Protestant Purgatory?

[James_Newman]

Also, we are told that Christ cleansed the church by the 'washing of water, by the word'.

He's still washing.

 

[Lacy Evans]

The blood and water gushed from His side after He died, not before.\

He did not cry, 'It is finished' after the blood and water was shed, but before.

That's what I said (Or at least what I meant to say. Edit still works ). Our works, sanctified by the Blood (Mixed blood and water) only come after the blood alone. My point is that water is always after blood (First the altar then the Lavar. Ex 30) In other words, two facets of salvation- 1) blood alone, Christs finished work: 2) blood and water, our works sanctified by his blood.

Born again - blood alone - "It is finished"
Born of water and Spirit - works and blood - "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Seriously, could it be the water birth is referring to the natural birth, (flesh), in the following verse? Nicodemus had just asked, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?".

I used to teach that (And I still think that it has merit), but it was mostly because I wanted to refute the idea of baptismal regeneration. But my current view fits the OT types much better. And it puts baptism with works and reward where it belongs.

Lacy

 

[Blammo]

I used to teach that (And I still think that it has merit), but it was mostly because I wanted to refute the idea of baptismal regeneration. But my current view fits the OT types much better. And it puts baptism with works and reward where it belongs.

Lacy

Thank you for your kind response.

I think Diggin's explaination of water also has merit. I better do some study on this, cause I don't like having a good opinion, I want to have the truth.

 

[Linda64]

Our works, sanctified by the Blood (Mixed blood and water) only come after the blood alone

Where does Scripture say that OUR works are sanctified by the Blood? When we are born again, we become NEW CREATURES in Christ Jesus--old things (which includes our works), are passed away--behold ALL things are become new.(2 Cor. 5:17). The righteousness OF CHRIST is imputed to us --so therefore, it is NOT OUR WORKS being sanctified--OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS are as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)

From Things Hard To Be Understood by David W. Cloud

Php. 2:12-13

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” – Php 2:12-13

This verse does not say that the child of God must work FOR or work UP his salvation; it says he must work OUT his salvation. These are very different things. To work up or to work for my salvation would mean that I have a part in my salvation and that unless I do my part, I will not be saved. On the other hand, to work out my salvation means God has given me eternal salvation as a free gift in Jesus Christ, and it is His will that I obey Him, not in order to save myself or in order to help God save me, but BECAUSE I am already saved. Obedience, holy living is the evidence of salvation. The Christian life is a miracle of God that is wrought from within. The power of the Christian life is the indwelling Holy Spirit, but the Christian is not passive. He is to be controlled by the Spirit (Eph 5:18), to be led by the Spirit (Ro 8:14), to walk after the Spirit (Ro 8:4; Ga 6:18), to mind the things of the Spirit (Ro 8:5).

 

[Lacy Evans]

Where does Scripture say that OUR works are sanctified by the Blood? When we are born again, we become NEW CREATURES in Christ Jesus--old things (which includes our works), are passed away--behold ALL things are become new.(2 Cor. 5:17). The righteousness OF CHRIST is imputed to us --so therefore, it is NOT OUR WORKS being sanctified--OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS are as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)

I think we are saying the same thing. An unbeliever's works are "Filthy rags". (Even if they are "good" works that God has commanded people to do.) They won't get him saved.

On the other hand, we, his children by faith in his Son, can do the exact same works (Giving a glass of cold water for example) and can be confident that those works please God. He even promises to reward us for them.

Paul says faith without works (Gal 2:16) (Blood)
James says we need to be justified by Faith and works (James 2:24) (Blood and Water)

Paul's verse is for one group (Unbelievers), James' is for another (Christians). Two facets/applications of justification.

Lacy

 

[Linda64]

I think we are saying the same thing. An unbeliever's works are "Filthy rags". (Even if they are "good" works that God has commanded people to do.) They won't get him saved.

No we aren't talking about the same thing. It's just not an unbeliever's works, it is also the works of the saved, if they are works of the flesh--good or bad! We are saved by grace and KEPT by grace--

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

On the other hand, we, his children by faith in his Son, can do the exact same works (Giving a glass of cold water for example) and can be confident that those works please God. He even promises to reward us for them.

We don't do these works because we are going to get a reward--we do these works selflessly--because they bring GLORY to God.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. (1 Corinthians 10:31)

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:13-14)

That "prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" is not reigning with Christ in the "earthly" Millennial Kingdom (although we will certainly be doing that as His Bride), but the "prize" is to be live eternally with Jesus Christ in HEAVEN. The Church is God's HEAVENLY PEOPLE--He did not promise the Church an earthly Kingdom. Israel is God's EARTHLY PEOPLE--He promised Israel an earthly Millennial Kingdom. The Church will share in the spiritual blessings of that earthly Kingdom, but our eternal home is in Heaven--in the New Jerusalem.

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2 Peter 3:13)

Paul says faith without works (Gal 2:16) (Blood)

I quoted that verse--that's not what Paul said in that verse--read it again. Have no idea what you are meaning by (Blood)

James says we need to be justified by Faith and works (James 2:24) (Blood and Water)

The works James refers to here are the works done after salvation--not works in order to "keep you saved", but works which "prove you are saved"--which are the "result" of being saved, not the "cause" of your getting saved. Your use of (Blood and Water) to explain this verse is an enigma.

Paul's verse is for one group (Unbelievers), James' is for another (Christians). Two facets/applications of justification.

Both Paul and James spoke to believers (one group) --James called them "My brethern" and Paul called them "brethren" in all of his epistles. All believers are justified--only one way you are justified--BY FAITH (Romans 5:1) You mix justification with sanctification, which has at least 3 facets (Past, Present, and Future). Past sanctification: believers are already positionally set apart in Christ (Acts 20:32; 1 Cor. 1:2, 30; 6:9-11; Hebrews 10:10, 14). Present sanctification is the process by which the Holy Spirit gradually changes a believer's life to give victory over sin. This is practical sanctification. (Romans 6-8) This present process never ends in this life (1 John 1:8-10) Future sanctification: this is the perfection (glorification) a believer will enjoy at the resurrection (1 Thess. 5:23). At Christ's coming, every believer will receive a new body that will have no sin.

 

[J. Jump]

That "prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" is not reigning with Christ in the "earthly" Millennial Kingdom (although we will certainly be doing that as His Bride), but the "prize" is to be live eternally with Jesus Christ in HEAVEN.

Folks this is church tradition at it's best and absolutely false. Saved people will not reside in heaven for eternity. There is absolutely no Scripture evidence that this is true. Revelation tells us that Christ and God won't even be residing in heaven for eternity, so why in the world would we want to be in heaven when our God is not even going to be there?

Linda did have a couple of things correct in her post in that the church was never promised a earthly (physical) kingdom. That was promised and will one day be delivered to the nation of Israel. Israel will one day finally become the head of the nations on earth.

Christians have been called to a heavenly land and have been given the opportunity to rule and reign with Christ in a spiritual kingdom. We have been offered the same offer that Israel rejected.

The kingdom that was being offered to them by John the Baptist, Christ and the disciples/apostles was this spiritual kingdom.

There are two realms of rule over the earth. There is a heavenly rule (the heavens do rule - Daniel 4 I believe), and then there is a rule from the physical earth.

Our war is not against flesh and blood. It's not a war against the people that we see. But our battle (and the battle is the Lord's) is in the heavenly realm against the spirits and principalities of darkness.

There are giants in our land that must be conquered, just as their were giants in the land that Israel had to conquer.

If we accept the offer of the kingdom (not the offer of salvation as some would have us believe) then we will rule and reign if we hold fast our confefssion and endure to the end, etc.

But in order to be in a position to accept or reject this offer we must be in a spiritual condition to understand these matters and that means that we must be made alive spiritually (saved).

The only good news that a spiritually dead man can hear and understand (by the Holy Spirit) is the good news that Christ died according to the Scriptures. Once a person accepts the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus, the Lamb of God on their behalf a sinner then there is a good news that they are able to hear.

And that is that Christ rose again on the third day according to the Scirptures. He is the King and will one day assume His throne and we can have a part in His coming kingdom if we are found faithful, obedient and have overcome the flesh, the world and Satan.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

We don't do these works because we are going to get a reward--we do these works selflessly--because they bring GLORY to God.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. (1 Corinthians 10:31)

And their all those that do nothing for the glory of God. Hence my signature.

In the end, it's a matter or works good or bad according to the last judgement statement in the Bible.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

No where in Revelations does it say you will be judge on faith.

Does your particualr book in heaven abundant with records of good works?
Are there records of you clothing the naked?
Are there records of you quenching the dry throats of the thirsty?
Are there records of you feeding the hungry?
Are there records of you visiting the sick?
Are there records of you visiting the imprisoned?
Are there records of you doing good things for those less fortunate then yourselves?
Are there records of you doing good things for those that are the least of Jesus'?

Are there records of you given the opportunity to do any of the above but decided not to out of suspicion or out of indifference?

 

[BobRyan]

Paul says faith without works (Gal 2:16) (Blood)
James says we need to be justified by Faith and works (James 2:24) (Blood and Water)

Paul's verse is for one group (Unbelievers), James' is for another (Christians). Two facets/applications of justification.

Lacy

In Romans 2 Paul argues in favor of faith that works just as James does in James 2. A good chapter for the no-works people to ignore.

In Romans 3 Paul argues for faith "apart from works of the Law" but then strongly affirms that "our faith ESTABLISHES the Law".

The point they are making is that Faith Works - but Works alone do not save. And faith that has no works "fruits showing that it is genuine" Matt 7 -- is no faith at all.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Blammo]

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Help me understand this verse.... please...

 

[Hope of Glory]

We don't do these works because we are going to get a reward--we do these works selflessly--because they bring GLORY to God.

If God esteemed these rewards enough to offer them, I'm certainly not going to thumb my nose at them!

"God, I know that you found these things to be important, but I don't think they're worth anything, so I'm just going to ignore them, OK?"

 

[Lacy Evans]

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Help me understand this verse.... please...

What ever it means it cannot be used to casually "cancel out" the verses like the ones in James that tell us we are "justified by faith and works". There must be two aspects of salvation.
Some oversimplify by dividing it into "justification" and "sanctification". I agree with the distinction (between our eternal salvation and our walk of separation after we are saved).
However we find the terms "salvation", "Justification", "sanctification", etc used for both aspects and only context can determine which it is referring to.

In Romans, Paul is simply telling us that we are saved (in the initial sense - ie. become Christians) by faith alone. There is no amount of "Filthy rag works" that will satisfy the holiness of God.

But a saved person is a whole different thing. Christ does the work in us. His holy Spirit empowers us and enables us to live holy and obedient. His word provides ample commands, instruction, counsel, and motivation (Positive and negative). We are truly justified (in a secondary sense) by yielding to the Spirit and doing "works meet for repentance".

Living holy is not optionial. There will be dire consequences if I ignore the things God has provided to make me sucessful at holiness.

Lacy

 

[DHK]

What ever it means it cannot be used to casually "cancel out" the verses like the ones in James that tell us we are "justified by faith and works". There must be two aspects of salvation.

There are not two aspects to salvation; there is only one. If there is more than one then you are no better than a Catholic who believes in a works salvation working your way to Heaven. You may as well as be baptized in order to be saved. You are working for your salvation which is a damnable heresy. "
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is only one way, and that is through Christ, and him alone.

Some oversimplify by dividing it into "justification" and "sanctification". I agree with the distinction (between our eternal salvation and our walk of separation after we are saved).
However we find the terms "salvation", "Justification", "sanctification", etc used for both aspects and only context can determine which it is referring to.

Salvation may be used in more than one context. The problem is that people who hold to your doctrine of ME draw Scrpture out of context to try and prove a doctrine that is not in Scripture. It is just as heretical as trying to prove the Immaculate Conception of Mary from Scripture. A Catholic apologist will try and do that as well.

In Romans, Paul is simply telling us that we are saved (in the initial sense - ie. become Christians) by faith alone. There is no amount of "Filthy rag works" that will satisfy the holiness of God.

The filthy rags, at the point of salvation, are put under the blood. Our sins, at the point of salvation are forgiven once and for all, never to remembered again.
As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed them from us.
He has cast them behind his back to remeber them no more.
He has buried them in the depths of the deepest see.
Thereforre, there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus--none.

But a saved person is a whole different thing. Christ does the work in us. His holy Spirit empowers us and enables us to live holy and obedient. His word provides ample commands, instruction, counsel, and motivation (Positive and negative). We are truly justified (in a secondary sense) by yielding to the Spirit and doing "works meet for repentance". [/quiote]
No one is justified in a secondary sense. That is not what the Bible says.
It says:
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
IT does not say:
Being justified in a secondary sense by faith we have peace with God.
You are adding to the Scripture and creating heresy.
Then you say:
We are truly justified...by yielding to the Spirit and doing...
Here is cultish Catholicism at its best.
You just said that we are saved by works, by doing. Do you go to confess your sins to the priest as well?
How many works do you have to do before you get saved?
How many works have to outweigh the bad works you do before you get saved?
You really believe that you are "saved by doing" as you just wrote?? That is heresy--it is what every cult believes in; what every major world religion believes in. Christianity alone believes in--saved by grace through faith alone.
But you don't believe that. You believe in salvation by works totally contrary to Eph. 2:8,9

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Living holy is not optionial. There will be dire consequences if I ignore the things God has provided to make me sucessful at holiness.
Lacy

Are you as holy as God is?
Without holiness no man shall see God. You will never be as holy as God is.
I am as holy as God is. However my holiness was given to me when I was saved. God no longer sees DHK and his sin. He looks down upon me and sees the righteousness of Jesus Christ. I am clothed in His righteousness. All my sins are under the blood. He will never look upon them again. In my standing before God, I am as holy as he is. However as long as you believe that your salvation must be attained by works you can never attain that standing.
Without holiness no man can see God.
Are you as holy as God?
DHK

 

[Lacy Evans]

We are saved by grace and KEPT by grace--

I absolutely agree.

We don't do these works because we are going to get a reward--we do these works selflessly--because they bring GLORY to God.

I honestly don't think you have thought this through. You seem to be parroting some sentimental extra-scriptural tradition. God commands us to be holy, and to demonstrate it outwardly. He then repeatedly tells us that he will reward us. He commands us to seek the Kingdom. He commands us to "lay up treasure in heaven". Any crown we win will be cast at Christ's feet and ultimately be part of Christ's glory. Do you honestly think that Christ wants us to be crownless on that day? To stand empty handed and fruitless watching the heroic saints of all history as they glorify Christ by casting crowns that Christ won through them at his feet?

Parable of the talents? Hello?

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. (1 Corinthians 10:31)

See above.

That "prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" is not reigning with Christ in the "earthly" Millennial Kingdom (although we will certainly be doing that as His Bride), but the "prize" is to be live eternally with Jesus Christ in HEAVEN.

So we are to "Press toward" heaven (eternity with God)? NO! That is so wrong. The prize is not the free gift! "Prize" and "gift" are antonyms. Any RA or GA can tell you the difference. Prizes are at the end of a race. Gifts are at Christmas. Prizes are won. Gifts are given. Please see the difference.

There are both gifts and prizes in the Bible for us to have.

Have no idea what you are meaning by (Blood)

Did you read the post where I explained it? (#257)

The works James refers to here are the works done after salvation--not works in order to "keep you saved", but works which "prove you are saved"--which are the "result" of being saved, not the "cause" of your getting saved. Your use of (Blood and Water) to explain this verse is an enigma.

You didn't read the post. Huh? I said the exact same thing. Blood and water (Works mixed with faith are after the "It is finished" faith alone.

You mix justification with sanctification, which has at least 3 facets (Past, Present, and Future). Past sanctification: believers are already positionally set apart in Christ (Acts 20:32; 1 Cor. 1:2, 30; 6:9-11; Hebrews 10:10, 14). Present sanctification is the process by which the Holy Spirit gradually changes a believer's life to give victory over sin. This is practical sanctification

I certainly don't mix them. You have just summarized my whole view of salvation in a handy little nutshell. I honestly am not sure why you are debating as my adversary.

Three facets of salvation! Amen Preach it my sister!

lacy

 

[Blammo]

What ever it means it cannot be used to casually "cancel out" the verses like the ones in James that tell us we are "justified by faith and works". There must be two aspects of salvation.
Some oversimplify by dividing it into "justification" and "sanctification". I agree with the distinction (between our eternal salvation and our walk of separation after we are saved).
However we find the terms "salvation", "Justification", "sanctification", etc used for both aspects and only context can determine which it is referring to.

In Romans, Paul is simply telling us that we are saved (in the initial sense - ie. become Christians) by faith alone. There is no amount of "Filthy rag works" that will satisfy the holiness of God.

But a saved person is a whole different thing. Christ does the work in us. His holy Spirit empowers us and enables us to live holy and obedient. His word provides ample commands, instruction, counsel, and motivation (Positive and negative). We are truly justified (in a secondary sense) by yielding to the Spirit and doing "works meet for repentance".

Living holy is not optionial. There will be dire consequences if I ignore the things God has provided to make me sucessful at holiness.

Lacy

What are the works required for entrance into the kingdom?
Have you earned your way into the kingdom?
How do you measure this?
Can you lose your inheritance and get it back? (prodigal son)
Is it too late for some of us? (Heb 10:26-27)

 

[James_Newman]

Are you as holy as God is?
Without holiness no man shall see God. You will never be as holy as God is.
I am as holy as God is. However my holiness was given to me when I was saved. God no longer sees DHK and his sin. He looks down upon me and sees the righteousness of Jesus Christ. I am clothed in His righteousness. All my sins are under the blood. He will never look upon them again. In my standing before God, I am as holy as he is. However as long as you believe that your salvation must be attained by works you can never attain that standing.
Without holiness no man can see God.
Are you as holy as God?
DHK

You never did explain how God chastises you for sins that He doesn't see.

 

[Linda64]

Three facets of salvation! Amen Preach it my sister!

You misquoted me--I never said "three facets of salvation"--what I said was "three facets of sanctification" Salvation is a one time event--sanctification, or being "set apart" is ongoing.

Any RA or GA can tell you the difference

What is an RA and GA?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Any crown we win will be cast at Christ's feet and ultimately be part of Christ's glory. Do you honestly think that Christ wants us to be crownless on that day? To stand empty handed and fruitless watching the heroic saints of all history as they glorify Christ by casting crowns that Christ won through them at his feet?

Where in Scripture is that found? That we, and saints, will cast our crowns at the feet of Christ? I cannot find that anywhere.

My Bible says the four and twenty elders cast their crowns at His feet, but there is no indication that any other are cast at His feet, nor that there ever will be.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Where in Scripture is that found? That we, and saints, will cast our crowns at the feet of Christ? I cannot find that anywhere.

My Bible says the four and twenty elders cast their crowns at His feet, but there is no indication that any other are cast at His feet, nor that there ever will be.

This brother wants to keep his crown by golly!:tongue3: