Diggin in da Word
New Member
Lacy said:
Where is that in Scripture? I do not see golden streets. There is a singular street, but not streets plural.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Protestant Purgatory?
- Thread starter Linda64
- Start date
- Status
Where is that in Scripture? I do not see golden streets. There is a singular street, but not streets plural.
Diggin in da Word
New Member
Lacy Evans said:
Communion is not based on Catholic doctrine. You are teaching another heresy.
Communion is an ordinance directly from the Word of God, not some false religion.
Lacy Evans said:
You did it again, Lacy--you love to misquote me. I said "ME (meaning Millennial Exclusion) is nothing but a Protestant Purgatory based on Catholic doctrine." Communion is NOT Millennial Exclusion--nor is communion a Protestant Mass. The Mass is a "re-sacrifice"--best check out what the Roman Catholic Church teaches--seems as though ME (Millennial Exclusion) is based on it.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Paul gives us NO excuse for "believing in purgatory"
1Cor 9[/b]
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified
Paul does not mislead us to imagine that after death we can "get cleaned up for heaven" by getting burned and purged -- paying for sinful deeds after death.
In Christ,
Bob
1Cor 9[/b]
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified
Paul does not mislead us to imagine that after death we can "get cleaned up for heaven" by getting burned and purged -- paying for sinful deeds after death.
In Christ,
Bob
The question was:Lacy Evans said:
"If you were to stand before God right now and he were to ask you, "Why should I allow you to enter into my heaven?" what would you answer?
--If you can't answer this question, then there is a good chance that you really aren't saved. A born again person would have an answer to that question--now, in the present. I don't have to wait for the future. Your refusal and denial of such an answer also belies your understanding of OSAS. It shows that you don't believe in eternal security, and can't possibly believe in eternal security. When you stand before God what will you say?
Lord if be you will...
Lord let me in based on my good works...
Lord let me in because I have been a good person...
Lord let me in because I have kept the Ten Commandments (liar)
Lord let me in because....
And you don't know. The fact that you don't know shows me that you don't believe in or understand the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer.
Your questions are Catholic and irrelevant to salvation. What if I have or haven't to any one of those questions. The fact is:
I have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour and that is what is important.
If I have committed these "venial" sins in your sight, then I will go to purgatory for a thousand years to be purged from my sins, so that I might continue to live in Heaven (though I've already been there before the Millennial Kingdom even started). Good thing I haven't committed any mortal sins or else I would spend all eternity in Hell, right??
DHK
Last edited by a moderator:
NO, James the brother of Jesus is not, but James Newman is actling like one, for he is taking these verses out of context and making them mean something other than what James the brother of our Lord meant them to be.James_Newman said:
A man is justified by faith, the outcome of which is works. Study that passage out and you will find that to the meaning. If you don't find that to be the meaning then you have a problem with the rest of the Bible which teaches otherwise.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
And how do you reconcile Romans 4:5 with your theology?
DHK
There is no such thing as a believer being chastened after he leaves this earth. That is where your theology falls apart.Lacy Evans said:
However what I have said is perfectly logical and theologically correct. You cannot defeat it, not in logic nor theologically. Try as you may.
Let's try it again. What is the meaning of eternal?
Eternal means without end; going on forever and ever. Look it up in a dictionary.
Eternal does not mean temporary. Eternal life does not stop at any given moment. Eternal life does not stop just before the Millennial Kingdom. If that were so then Christ would be a liar. Are you calling Christ a liar? Do you say that He doesn't give the gift of eternal life. Are you admitting that you do not believe in eternal security. You are. Eternal means eternal; eternal without any break whatsoever. If there is any break in eternal it isn't eternal by the very definition of the word. Is that understood?
Eternal life is not Salvation minus 1000 years, and then salvation regained. That is not eternal life. That is a lie of the devil; a redefining of the word eternal, something that makes no logical sense and defies the very meanings of words. It is illogical and makes no sense.
Eternal means forever and ever without end without any 1000 year gaps. You don't believe in eternal security. You believe you can lose salvation because of your belief in ME.
No they are not. They are the weakest, and in fact, they deny it.
If you have to endure so-called chastening in some sort of purgatory during the Millennial Kingdom it is the same as losing your salvation. Yes I know what you believe too. It is heresy. You believe you can lose the salvation that was already given you as a gift. We were raptured to heaven; in heaven were already at the JSOC, spent time in Heaven with Christ, and then are thrown into some sort of fiery purgatory on earth to be "chastened" once again. That is a loss of salvation. It is a ridiculous concept, especially considering that one has already faced the JSOC.
So what if he kills you? So what. He has the keys to life and death. He had the power to kill Job, but he didn't. He killed believers in Corinth (1Cor.11:30). We will all give account of ourselves before God. (at the JSOC).
We will lose reward the Bible says. It does not specify what the reward lost will be. We assume it may be crowns, but we don't know for sure; it is just speculation.
DHK
Hope of Glory
New Member
DHK said:
First, you write this. You see that it has nothing to do with spiritual salvation, and that it's talking about our living. It's talking about works.
Then, you resort to lieing. I have to wonder why.
If Lacy or James Newman or J. Jump or I or DeHaan or Zane Hodges or anyone else has said that we get our everlasting spiritual salvation by works, prove it.
I'm calling you a liar, and you can prove me wrong. If you do, I will apologize.
DHK said:
DHK said:
Apparently, you don't see the above Scripture that states explicitly that we are justified by our works. It's talking about justification, not salvation.
DHK said:
Yes, just like the Bible.
DHK said:
Because he has never stated anywhere on this board that we get our everlasting spiritual salvation by our works. But, stating untruths that he has is the only tool you have in your debate arsenal.
DHK said:
Too bad God made us waste all that paper and ink on those needless passages about confessing our sins and how he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and all that garbage. After all, if he doesn't see our sins even if we haven't confessed them, then there's no need to confess.
Hope of Glory
New Member
James_Newman said:
Don't you get it James? He obviously forgot to mention everything that we need. The Scriptures are incomplete and he's really trying to just trick us.
Hope of Glory
New Member
James_Newman said:
James, James, James! When are you going to learn that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says? What this verse is really saying is that we are not justified by works.
Hope of Glory
New Member
Lacy Evans said:
Apparently, according to some here, when I send my son to his room, he's no longer my son.
Hope of Glory
New Member
BobRyan said:
I would like to see Linda, DHK, SFiC, or Diggin to respond to these verses about winning prizes, being disqualified, running the race, etc.
Although I think you're 180 degrees off on the security issue, in some ways, the fact that you can see the works and the warnings of loss makes me think that we are closer to an agreement than those who do see the security of the believer.
1Cor 9[/b]Hope of Glory said:
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified
One can be disqualified from running the race in the same sense that a soldier can become unfit to fight. They are all the same analagies. In real life situations today if a pastor commits immorality he disqualifies himself from the ministry (at least according to our faith), and can no longer be a pastor. He will lose reward in heaven (at the JSOC).
But he will never lose his salvation.
There is no such thing as ME.
All is taken care of at the JSOC.
Chastening only applies on this earth. There is no evdidence anywhere in the Bible that it applies outside of this earth.
We shall all give account of ourselves to God--beleivers at the JSOC.
To be disqualified is on this life only.
Running the reace is on this life only.
These are all earthly illustrations given for believers running an earthly race toward a goal not yet seen. For we walk by faith and not by sight.
DHK
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In 1Cor 9 - Paul makes it clear that the point is not "being able to preach rather then sit in the pew" but rather the "point" in preaching the Gospel is salvation.
He never states in 1Cor 9 that "his goal is to be a minister not a tent maker like so many other Christians". He states that the "result" the "Goal" he strives for is the gospel result of "Salvation". So that preaching the Gospel and ALSO exercising self discipline that he might not be exluded from that very Gospel he is preaching -- is clearly the sense of the text.
However I have never doubted that there would be many creative ways to ignore that Bible fact.
In Christ,
Bob
He never states in 1Cor 9 that "his goal is to be a minister not a tent maker like so many other Christians". He states that the "result" the "Goal" he strives for is the gospel result of "Salvation". So that preaching the Gospel and ALSO exercising self discipline that he might not be exluded from that very Gospel he is preaching -- is clearly the sense of the text.
However I have never doubted that there would be many creative ways to ignore that Bible fact.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Now comes that “unpleasant section” for many where Paul points out the seriousness of this Gospel pursuit for the goal of saving people -- so that I may by all means save some. as he says.
Paul shows his explicit objective when he “Does all things for the sake of the Gospel”. He SAYS he does all things so that “he may become a fellow partaker of IT – the Gospel”!!
...
It is as a “fellow partaker of the GOSPEL” that Paul wants to live AND to preach. Indeed what is the point of preaching if he is not also PARTAKING of the benefits of the Gospel – eternal life.
Paul shows that his own example in persuing that goal of being “A fellow partaker of the Gospel” is the standard/model/role-model for the saints. Paul argues that ALL saints are pursuing the same eternal imperishable reward in their striving – in their self-discipline. Paul says “but WE do it to receive an IMPERISHABLE objective.
He has left the realm of “I am a leader and Apostle and so I have special rights” to the perspective of WE ALL want to be “Fellow partakers” of the Gospel for as he has just pointed out when the Gospel is received the people are saved. (; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.)
Take each "detail" and show the meaning IN the 1Cor 9 context itself. Let the argument speak for itself IN the text you are exegeting.
And so when Paul says
Do you respond with
"Are you saved by your efforts of paying close attention, persevering and taking pains with those disciplines?"
Will your response to each of these displeasing texts be simply to challenge them and show how your view of "other texts" don't allow these unpleasant texts to exist??
When Paul says
He speaks of “The loss of all things” and the goal of “knowing Christ”. In fact he says his goal is to “gain Christ”. More than this – he seeks to “attain to the resurrection from the dead”.
Those who think that “knowing Christ,” and “gaining Christ” and ‘the resurrection of the righteous” are all things “other than salvation” have not thought about the point of Gospel salvation in the complete form it is presented in scripture.
So when we see such direct appeals to the salvific benefits of the Gospel - do you respond with I would hope that you are humble enough to put no faith in yourself........and at least a little in God!?? Do you rework this into a kind of “its all about Paul’s confidence in himself” story? Why not accept it as the faithful view of the saints of God – just as Paul presents it??
If you see yourself needing to “gloss over” the details of Phil 3 or 1Cor 9 and you if you feel the need to respond to them as “inconvenient test” as you divert attention away from these direct challenges to OSAS and towards some less problematic texts - you can begin to see that those other texts are being taken to extremes so place them in favor of OSAS. If we let the text speak in its full detail does it cause you to immediately jump to some other "more comfortable" text?
IF so - it is a sign that you have taken what your comfortable texts do not actually say explicitly and have added "inferences" that were never in those texts to start with.
In the case of these "unpleasant" texts - it is the mere quote of them and the insistence on seeing their details rather than glossing over them that is causes so many to have heart burn.
Paul shows his explicit objective when he “Does all things for the sake of the Gospel”. He SAYS he does all things so that “he may become a fellow partaker of IT – the Gospel”!!
...
It is as a “fellow partaker of the GOSPEL” that Paul wants to live AND to preach. Indeed what is the point of preaching if he is not also PARTAKING of the benefits of the Gospel – eternal life.
Paul shows that his own example in persuing that goal of being “A fellow partaker of the Gospel” is the standard/model/role-model for the saints. Paul argues that ALL saints are pursuing the same eternal imperishable reward in their striving – in their self-discipline. Paul says “but WE do it to receive an IMPERISHABLE objective.
He has left the realm of “I am a leader and Apostle and so I have special rights” to the perspective of WE ALL want to be “Fellow partakers” of the Gospel for as he has just pointed out when the Gospel is received the people are saved. (; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.)
Take each "detail" and show the meaning IN the 1Cor 9 context itself. Let the argument speak for itself IN the text you are exegeting.
And so when Paul says
Do you respond with
"Are you saved by your efforts of paying close attention, persevering and taking pains with those disciplines?"
Will your response to each of these displeasing texts be simply to challenge them and show how your view of "other texts" don't allow these unpleasant texts to exist??
When Paul says
He speaks of “The loss of all things” and the goal of “knowing Christ”. In fact he says his goal is to “gain Christ”. More than this – he seeks to “attain to the resurrection from the dead”.
Those who think that “knowing Christ,” and “gaining Christ” and ‘the resurrection of the righteous” are all things “other than salvation” have not thought about the point of Gospel salvation in the complete form it is presented in scripture.
So when we see such direct appeals to the salvific benefits of the Gospel - do you respond with I would hope that you are humble enough to put no faith in yourself........and at least a little in God!?? Do you rework this into a kind of “its all about Paul’s confidence in himself” story? Why not accept it as the faithful view of the saints of God – just as Paul presents it??
If you see yourself needing to “gloss over” the details of Phil 3 or 1Cor 9 and you if you feel the need to respond to them as “inconvenient test” as you divert attention away from these direct challenges to OSAS and towards some less problematic texts - you can begin to see that those other texts are being taken to extremes so place them in favor of OSAS. If we let the text speak in its full detail does it cause you to immediately jump to some other "more comfortable" text?
IF so - it is a sign that you have taken what your comfortable texts do not actually say explicitly and have added "inferences" that were never in those texts to start with.
In the case of these "unpleasant" texts - it is the mere quote of them and the insistence on seeing their details rather than glossing over them that is causes so many to have heart burn.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Since there may be some who want to look even closer into 1Cor 9 ---
He claims that he values his “boast” higher than getting the earthly perishable temporal benefit from the church. In fact his view of “reward” is to offer the Gospel without charge! That is the only “reward” he mentions for himself in the entire chapter that is apart from the Gospel reward of “Eternal Life”.
Now he will switch to the “Gospel” mission the “Gospel focus” the fact that His preaching of the Gospel of Salvation is such a consuming role that earthly benefit fades. He is under a higher calling
This is key – Paul has just said that his “reward” is to “offer the Gospel without charge”. Paul specifically addresses the less substantive topic of personal reward (apart from eternal life) for preaching the Gospel. It is instructive that Paul specifically points to this issue of “reward” and states that the “reward” he is getting is the reward of not charging for his work as an evangelist!!
This means that those who wish to spin the remainder of the chapter into a “concern for reward” that is apart from the Gospel reward of eternal life – must keep with Paul’s argument that his “reward” is “to offer the Gospel without charge”!! If they do that – then it makes no sense at all to say “I buffet my body and make it my slave lest I charge someone a penny for doing evangelism”. The entire “don’t think of this as the imperishable Gospel reward of eternal life” fails.
At this point Paul jumps fully into the topic of SALVATION! He argues the point of wining the lost. He shows that his focus and goal is fully set on the salvation that is brought through the preaching of the Gospel!
Wining here is “Wining souls for Christ” in the preaching of the Gospel. Preaching the Gospel to others – resulting in their Salvation! In this case [b]to “Win” is to “SAVE”[/b]
Paul shows that “To win is to save”! He preaches the Gospel to others in order to SAVE them – no mention at all of his seeking “a bit more candy when he gets to heaven”. . He mentions nothing about the temporal rewards in heaven of housing, or candy or toys nor does he mention what great honor and room-size reward he is seeking in heaven.
He claims that he values his “boast” higher than getting the earthly perishable temporal benefit from the church. In fact his view of “reward” is to offer the Gospel without charge! That is the only “reward” he mentions for himself in the entire chapter that is apart from the Gospel reward of “Eternal Life”.
Now he will switch to the “Gospel” mission the “Gospel focus” the fact that His preaching of the Gospel of Salvation is such a consuming role that earthly benefit fades. He is under a higher calling
This is key – Paul has just said that his “reward” is to “offer the Gospel without charge”. Paul specifically addresses the less substantive topic of personal reward (apart from eternal life) for preaching the Gospel. It is instructive that Paul specifically points to this issue of “reward” and states that the “reward” he is getting is the reward of not charging for his work as an evangelist!!
This means that those who wish to spin the remainder of the chapter into a “concern for reward” that is apart from the Gospel reward of eternal life – must keep with Paul’s argument that his “reward” is “to offer the Gospel without charge”!! If they do that – then it makes no sense at all to say “I buffet my body and make it my slave lest I charge someone a penny for doing evangelism”. The entire “don’t think of this as the imperishable Gospel reward of eternal life” fails.
At this point Paul jumps fully into the topic of SALVATION! He argues the point of wining the lost. He shows that his focus and goal is fully set on the salvation that is brought through the preaching of the Gospel!
Wining here is “Wining souls for Christ” in the preaching of the Gospel. Preaching the Gospel to others – resulting in their Salvation! In this case [b]to “Win” is to “SAVE”[/b]
Paul shows that “To win is to save”! He preaches the Gospel to others in order to SAVE them – no mention at all of his seeking “a bit more candy when he gets to heaven”. . He mentions nothing about the temporal rewards in heaven of housing, or candy or toys nor does he mention what great honor and room-size reward he is seeking in heaven.
Lacy Evans
New Member
Diggin in da Word said:
You certainly did an adequate job of straing out that gnat. Bravo! Did you get the tickly feeling too?
Last edited by a moderator:
Lacy Evans
New Member
DHK said:
OK Now we are getting some where. Just simply prove that statement from scripture. Easy as pie? I can't wait.
Then explain these:
2 Corinthians 5:9-11
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
1 Timothy 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Matthew 18:32-35
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Hebrews 3:12-19
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Lacy Evans
New Member
DHK said:
Ok I don't believe you are going to see (at least from me) that these are inconsistent statements. But I have to ask anyway.
Is "loss of reward" not a form of chastening? We call that being grounded.
Does the word not say "He will SUFFER loss" Does that mean he will "Blissfully enjoy" loss? Is "heaven" (Technically incorrect, but eternity with God nontheless) "On this earth" or is it after this this life?
How come (biblically) you get to pick your own switch? How come you can bypass the Bible, and decide for all of your siblings how our Father will choose to chasten us?
See my previous thread. On the contrary there is absolutely no Biblical support for the Fairy Tale that chastening is limited to this life.
Lacy
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You are right about one thing. Matt 18 shows that the sin that was at first forgiven - has forgiveness revoked and the original debt of SIN is fully paid by the wicked - and NOT via FORGIVENess via the substitutionary atoning death of Christ.
You are right that the debt of sin IS fully paid up by the wicked. That debt of sin is the lake of fire - the 2nd death where "BOTH body AND SOUL" will be DESTROYED (Matt 10:28).
But paying the full debt of sin - INSTEAD of getting gospel forgiveness is NOt "another way to get to heaven" -- it is the Lake of Fire destruction of both body AND soul.
in Christ,
Bob
- Status