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I would like to challenge all those who believe that a born again, child of God can lose the gift of salvation that God has sealed with the Holy Spirit, to prove their position, using scripture of course.
Instead of just arguing with those of us who believe in eternal security, prove that we are wrong.
I do a lot of evangelism. The "truth of God," is presented often, and often rejected.There are so many, I'm not sure where to begin.
Romans 1:17-32 (King James Version)
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I do a lot of evangelism. The "truth of God," is presented often, and often rejected.
These people were never Christians in the first place. The whole passage describes the condition of the unsaved Gentiles. Chapter two describes the condition of the unsaved Jew. Chapter three describes the condition of the unsaved Jew and Gentile alike--that is of all the world.
I do a lot of evangelism. The "truth of God," is presented often, and often rejected.
These people were never Christians in the first place. The whole passage describes the condition of the unsaved Gentiles. Chapter two describes the condition of the unsaved Jew. Chapter three describes the condition of the unsaved Jew and Gentile alike--that is of all the world.
I would like to challenge all those who believe that a born again, child of God can lose the gift of salvation that God has sealed with the Holy Spirit, to prove their position, using scripture of course.
Instead of just arguing with those of us who believe in eternal security, prove that we are wrong.
I can give you scripture to support my beleifs that one can forfiet their faith. You will turn around and say I am misunderstanding them or taking them out of context. You will then give me scripture to support your view of eternal security. I will then say you are misunderstanding them and/or taking them out of context. I will give you a verse or two. You will say 'Oh yea, what about....", and I will say 'Oh yea, what about..." neither of us will change our beliefs because we have already settled it in our minds. We have prayed over it and studied as best we could to reach our conclussions. The best we can hope for is to agree to disagree, the worst would be to get into a name calling contest and belittle each other and accuse the other of being a heratic, unsaved, misled, and flase teacher. We would then ruin both our witnesses to others here on forum and possibly be banned.
So rather than go through all that, let's just shorten the process and agree to disagree. How about we meet in heaven and ask Christ to explain it to us. If your right, I'll let you make fun of me when we walk down the golden streets on our way to get fruit from the Tree of Life.
Love Ya,
keith
If anything Amy, “The Parable of the Sower” is one of the best examples used to actually refute the OSAS doctrine. For time sake I will omit posting much the Scripture text, but please refer to Matthew 13: 3-23.I believe the parable of the sower is the best explanation of this.
OK, let's look at James 5:19-20:I would like to challenge all those who believe that a born again, child of God can lose the gift of salvation that God has sealed with the Holy Spirit, to prove their position, using scripture of course.
Instead of just arguing with those of us who believe in eternal security, prove that we are wrong.
I know some will say "save his soul from death" means the same thing as "save his life from death" but the only translations I have found that say it this way are those published by organizations that actively hold to an OSAS point of view. I suppose you will look at that way because if you don't you must conclude that these verses disprove OSAS.My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
...but Christ plainly says that ...he lasts a short time... For one, we don't know the time period, he could've lasted a week or a year or longer until he experienced trouble and persecution.The first two soils (heart conditions) were never Christians to begin with. The third soil, you can't be for sure. But, to not be sure is to play with fire. Only the fourth soil is was saved, is saved, and will always be saved. And, the evidence is fruit. Where there is no fruit, period, there is no salvation, nor has there ever been.
Amy: I would like to challenge all those who believe that a born again, child of God can lose the gift of salvation that God has sealed with the Holy Spirit, to prove their position, using scripture of course.
Instead of just arguing with those of us who believe in eternal security, prove that we are wrong.
DHK: I do a lot of evangelism. The "truth of God," is presented often, and often rejected.
These people were never Christians in the first place.
If anything Amy, “The Parable of the Sower” is one of the best examples used to actually refute the OSAS doctrine. For time sake I will omit posting much the Scripture text, but please refer to Matthew 13: 3-23.
At the end of verse 9, the Disciples question Jesus in regard to this parable and starting in verse 18-23, Jesus elaborates.
Please note in particular verses 20-21: The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
Now Amy, I have to ask; how do you relate your OSAS beliefs to Matthew 13:20-21? If a man cannot lose his salvation, then why would Jesus say: When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away”?
Here is a prime example of a person who received the Word of God with joy and is saved, but once trouble or persecution comes he falls away.
In XC
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“When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away”?”[/QUOTE]
HP: Some need to ask themselves how one falls away from something they never had?
“When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away”?”[/QUOTE]
HP: Some need to ask themselves how one falls away from something they never had?
They always had the truth. They didn't always have salvation.
Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
Did Agrippa have the truth? Did Paul sow a seed? Did Agrippa have salvation?
There are so many, I'm not sure where to begin.
Romans 1:17-32 (King James Version)
17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
How about these, these WERE Christians that God gave up.
Well ML you started at the wrong place. In the passage from Romans the Apostle Paul is talking about the general state of fallen mankind, not Christians. Please note verse 20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Paul is not referring to the Special Revelation of God here but the revelation of God in nature.
I would like to challenge all those who believe that a born again, child of God can lose the gift of salvation that God has sealed with the Holy Spirit, to prove their position, using scripture of course.
Instead of just arguing with those of us who believe in eternal security, prove that we are wrong.