Prove it.

[Agnus_Dei]

Just because someone "serves" in the church does not make them a born again child of God. The man in your story had outward signs, but his heart was not right with God.

…and exactly how do you know that "his heart was not right with God" during his ministry? Hindsight is 20/20 Amy…you can’t make that determination after the fact, if so, how do you know your heart is truly “right with God”?

In XC
-

 

[Martin Luther]

You're right. It is as plain as day.

Your post makes my point. Just because someone "serves" in the church does not make them a born again child of God. The man in your story had outward signs, but his heart was not right with God. This is exactly what Jesus is explaining in His parable of the sower. Many Jews at that time thought that because they followed the Law and were Abraham's descendants they were safe. But Jesus says there's more. He said that He is the gate and anyone who tries to enter another way is a thief. Going to church, serving in the church are good things, but doing those things doesn't make you saved. The man in your story had no root.

Jude 1:5-6 (King James Version)

5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Do you really believe God gives countless warnings to believers so we can keep our gold crowns? The warnings are very clear, Gods demands our obedience to prove that which we claim to believe.

 

[Amy.G]

…and exactly how do you know that "his heart was not right with God" during his ministry? Hindsight is 20/20 Amy…you can’t make that determination after the fact, if so, how do you know you’re heart is truly “right with God”?

In XC
-

I know because of the parable of the sower. Jesus taught about this very thing.

 

[Amy.G]

Jude 1:5-6 (King James Version)

5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Do you really believe God gives countless warnings to believers so we can keep our gold crowns? The warnings are very clear, Gods demands our obedience to prove that which we claim to believe.

These warnings are for those who "believed not". They are not warnings for those who believe.

 

[Martin Luther]

These warnings are for those who "believed not". They are not warnings for those who believe.

When a young child prays to God would you say that they believe they are talking to God? Why is Jude wasting his time writing to the lost? The entire N.T. is written to the church. The lost are lost, that is cut and dry.



Matthew 24:48-51 (King James Version)

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I know because of the parable of the sower. Jesus taught about this very thing.

What? So this minister, who very likely fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited the sick and infirm wasn't "saved" during his 30 plus years as a minister, b/c the parable tells you that?

So you're saying that if this minister died during the prime of his ministry, he would've been lost and damed to hell?

Be careful Amy...the slope is slippery

In XC
-

 

[Amy.G]

When a young child prays to God would you say that they believe they are talking to God?

I don't know. And I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

 

[Amy.G]

What? So this minister, who very likely fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited the sick and infirm wasn't "saved" during his 30 plus years as a minister, b/c the parable tells you that?

So you're saying that if this minister died during the prime of his ministry, he would've been lost and damed to hell?

Be careful Amy...the slope is slippery

In XC
-

It is not my place to judge the heart of any individual. If that is the slippery slope you're talking about, it doesn't apply here.

But the bible speaks plainly about people who think they are going to heaven because they did this or that, but Jesus will tell them that He never knew them. He won't say that He knew them once, but now He doesn't. He will say that He never knew them. That means that they were never saved.

 

[annsni]

…and exactly how do you know that "his heart was not right with God" during his ministry? Hindsight is 20/20 Amy…you can’t make that determination after the fact, if so, how do you know your heart is truly “right with God”?

In XC
-

Because it is he who perseveres to the end who's truly saved. Not that once you get to the end you are saved but if you are truly saved, you will persevere to the end.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

But the bible speaks plainly about people who think they are going to heaven because they did this or that, but Jesus will tell them that He never knew them. He won't say that He knew them once, but now He doesn't. He will say that He never knew them. That means that they were never saved.

Thank you, therefore, no one really knows until the end of the race. Just as St. Paul says…we must finish the race, endure until the end and each of us are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

In XC
-

 

[annsni]

What? So this minister, who very likely fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited the sick and infirm wasn't "saved" during his 30 plus years as a minister, b/c the parable tells you that?

So you're saying that if this minister died during the prime of his ministry, he would've been lost and damed to hell?

Be careful Amy...the slope is slippery

In XC
-

There are many who are going to expect to be welcomed into heaven but instead will be told "I never knew you". Just because someone does things "right", doesn't mean they're saved. It's a heart condition - one that only God truly knows. We can assume, we can see evidences but that doesn't say fully one way or another. If someone is doing great things, that's wonderful - it doesn't mean they were saved.

 

[Revmitchell]

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


The word kept in v.5 is the greek word phroureo and it means to set up watch in advance, or to mount a guard, or to hem in protection. Our salvation is protected by God in advance of something happening to it.

Of course Jesus had given this picture much earlier:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Jesus said they shall never perish. Peter wrote that our salvation was incorruptible, cannot be defiled, and can never just fade out by means of loss of faith in any manner.

 

[annsni]

Thank you, therefore, no one really knows until the end of the race. Just as St. Paul says…we must finish the race, endure until the end and each of us are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

In XC
-

Read 1 John 5 as a refute to your statement.

 

[annsni]

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Amen and amen.

 

[Martin Luther]

I don't know. And I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

For one to be saved all you must do is believe in the name of Christ. That is how salvation starts. I used to think Santa was real once upon a time also. Not everyone who ever prayed believing God was the Savior will continue in that faith. This lack of understanding has lead many to become dispensationalists, a very dangerous doctrine to be sure.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Mark 13:13 quotes Jesus as saying:

And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.​

Look again at the second half of that sentence. Jesus is saying that to be saved you must endure (for Him) until you die. Conversely Christ is therefore saying that those who do not endure will not be saved! Notice that I am not quoting Paul or any other Apostle or Disciple, but the Son of God Himself.

There is no, OSAS theology with this passage whatsoever. I mean, why would a "saved" individual have to edure, when they're saved past, present and future?

In XC
-

 

[Amy.G]

For one to be saved all you must do is believe in the name of Christ. That is how salvation starts. I used to think Santa was real once upon a time also. Not everyone who ever prayed believing God was the Savior will continue in that faith. This lack of understanding has lead many to become dispensationalist, a very dangerous doctrine to be sure.

Only God knows (and you) if your faith is real or if your faith is in vain.

You're right, it takes more than believing (or having head knowledge) Jesus is the Savior to be saved.

Since you bring up children, I'll use this verse to illustrate the word "believe".

Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.


Strong's: believe (Mark 9:42)

G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.


This is what we do when we "believe" as the word is used by Christ. We must entrust our spiritual well being to Christ, commit to Him, trust Him.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Aaaallrrighty then! :laugh: You are dismissed from this discussion. :tongue3:

I would not call you a heretic though or other derogatory names, but I see your point. My point is that in my belief, it cannot be proved from scripture that one can lose or forfeit the gift of salvation. One can forfeit or reject the truth of the gospel, but they are not saved at that point, so have not "lost" it. I believe the parable of the sower is the best explanation of this.

Since I am dismissed, can I still watch? So far it's going pretty much as I suspected. Maybe I'm a prophet???? Probably not.

I've seen a lot of scriptures being thrown at both sides. Some redifinition of words from both sides (I think) and a couple of post getting very close to name calling.

You are correct that one can not prove that one can forfiet there salvation. Here are some verses that come pretty close;

(1Ti 1:15) This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

(1Ti 1:16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

(1Ti 1:17) Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

(1Ti 1:18) This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

(1Ti 1:19) Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

(1Ti 1:20) Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

I know those who believe OSAS will explain them away. But remember although one can not prove that one can lose salvation, neither can one prove that one can not.

PS I know you wouldn't call me names, but I also know that others would.

 

[Amy.G]

Mark 13:13 quotes Jesus as saying:

And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.​

Look again at the second half of that sentence. Jesus is saying that to be saved you must endure (for Him) until you die. Conversely Christ is therefore saying that those who do not endure will not be saved! Notice that I am not quoting Paul or any other Apostle or Disciple, but the Son of God Himself.

There is no, OSAS theology with this passage whatsoever. I mean, why would a "saved" individual have to edure, when they're saved past, present and future?

In XC
-

Of course there is. Jesus was speaking to the disciples, who were already saved. Remember what He told them earlier?

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

You do not have to endure "to be saved". You will endure because you are saved.

 

[Revmitchell]

Mark 13:13 quotes Jesus as saying:

And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.​

Look again at the second half of that sentence. Jesus is saying that to be saved you must endure (for Him) until you die. Conversely Christ is therefore saying that those who do not endure will not be saved! Notice that I am not quoting Paul or any other Apostle or Disciple, but the Son of God Himself.

There is no, OSAS theology with this passage whatsoever. I mean, why would a "saved" individual have to edure, when they're saved past, present and future?

In XC
-

And those who do not or did not endure were never saved to begin with.