Prove it.

[Agnus_Dei]

They always had the truth. They didn't always have salvation.

Just curious, if they always had the "truth", then per Matthew 13:3-21 what exactly was it that "he" received?

In XC
-

 

[Martin Luther]

Amy
They can't prove what is false. Scripture teaches very clearly, for those who believe that Salvation is by Grace alone and not of works, that God keeps Eternally Secure those whom He has saved through Jesus Christ. These people like to quibble about the interpretation of certain passages. Let them quibble with the words of Jesus Christ.

John 6:35-40, KJV
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

John 10:27-30, KJV
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.

No man can earn heaven on his own. Do not deny obedience! One must be obedient to Christ. Only through repentance and obedience can man be justified. Apart from Christ works are useless, even Catholics know this much.



Romans 2:6-10

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:




Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves


James 2:20-26

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.




Be careful what you teach brother.

 

[Amy.G]

Just curious, if they always had the "truth", then per Matthew 13:3-21 what exactly was it that "he" received?

In XC
-

Which he?

As Jesus explained, the seed is the word of God (truth). The soil is the heart. Each one received the truth. Only one of them accepted it and it took root and produced fruit. Only one of them produced fruit. This is the sign of a believer.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Which he?

As Jesus explained, the seed is the word of God (truth). The soil is the heart. Each one received the truth. Only one of them accepted it and it took root and produced fruit. Only one of them produced fruit. This is the sign of a believer.

Go back and re-read my #8 Post...

Matthew 13:20-21: The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

You told HP that they always had the truth (Word of God)...so I'm asking you what was it that he received gladly per Matt 13:20-21, IF they always had this truth?

Next what was it that he fell away from? If it was the truth (Word of God), then was this fellow not "saved" when he was abiding in this truth before he fell away? If not, why?

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

HP: So can we conclude from your statements here that if the truth of God is rejected they were never Christians in the first place?

Quite obviously, yes.
When the gospel is presented as the only way to heaven, and that message is rejected then that person is lost and never was saved or a Christian to begin with. You do understand what evangelism is, don't you?

 

[Amy.G]

Go back and re-read my #8 Post...

Matthew 13:20-21: The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

You told HP that they always had the truth (Word of God)...so I'm asking you what was it that he received gladly per Matt 13:20-21, IF they always had this truth?

Next what was it that he fell away from? If it was the truth (Word of God), then was this fellow not "saved" when he was abiding in this truth before he fell away? If not, why?

In XC
-

He fell away from the truth or the gospel of Christ. He heard it, he liked it for awhile, but wasn't willing to submit to God. And there is nothing in the text that implies that he was "abiding" in the truth.

There is a key word in this parable that helps to explain it.

That word is "but".

Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.


The word "but" indicates that something is very different about the next thing that Jesus says. This last seed is different than the others in that it brought forth fruit. It fell to good ground, a heart willing to receive it. This is what happens when we are saved.
A person is only able to produce fruit through the Holy Spirit. So the last seed that produced fruit represents the person who has the Spirit, because it is only then that he will produce fruit.

 

[OldRegular]

If anything Amy, “The Parable of the Sower” is one of the best examples used to actually refute the OSAS doctrine. For time sake I will omit posting much the Scripture text, but please refer to Matthew 13: 3-23.

At the end of verse 9, the Disciples question Jesus in regard to this parable and starting in verse 18-23, Jesus elaborates.

Please note in particular verses 20-21: The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

Now Amy, I have to ask; how do you relate your OSAS beliefs to Matthew 13:20-21? If a man cannot lose his salvation, then why would Jesus say: When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away”?

Here is a prime example of a person who received the Word of God with joy and is saved, but once trouble or persecution comes he falls away.

In XC
-

Only one of the men, the fourth, was saved. It is that simple. There is nothing in Jesus Christ's explanation that would indicate otherwise, to those who read with understanding.

 

[OldRegular]

There is no difference. From Adam until the return of Christ men are the redeemed and lost the same way. Paul was speaking here of those who began to follow and then turned back, these were past examples as well as future examples.

You are completely misled by your insistence on turning the Grace of God into "Man, mighty man, the author and finisher of his own salvation".

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Amy
They can't prove what is false. Scripture teaches very clearly, for those who believe that Salvation is by Grace alone and not of works, that God keeps Eternally Secure those whom He has saved through Jesus Christ. These people like to quibble about the interpretation of certain passages. Let them quibble with the words of Jesus Christ.

John 6:35-40, KJV
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

John 10:27-30, KJV
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.

Response by Martin Luther
No man can earn heaven on his own. Do not deny obedience! One must be obedient to Christ. Only through repentance and obedience can man be justified. Apart from Christ works are useless, even Catholics know this much.



Romans 2:6-10

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:




Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves


James 2:20-26

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You say: "Only through repentance and obedience can man be justified." That is complete contrary to Scripture.

John 6:28. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29. Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Romans 3:28. Therefore we conclude thata man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 4:5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:9. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Romans 5:1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 5:2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Galatians 2:16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Galatians 3:26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[Jedi Knight]

If we can loose our acceptance with God,then the most"LUCKY GUY" in scripture was the thief on the cross!! Jesus was kind to let him die with assurance of his outcome "TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE"(Luke 23:43). Gods seems pretty cruel to not let me die in an accident shorty after I accepted Him in this short life! :BangHead: I wounder if Noah built an Ark with pegs on the side instead of a door to go in,and God said "HOLD ON GANG!"Noah might had lost heart. Man.... what's the point if I might fall away "as if Jesus don't see my future" and intervene by Lightning or something. SMITE ME! SMITE ME but DON"T reject your elect!!:BangHead:

 

[gb93433]

Mt. 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

That person has the appearance of being saved but certainly is not.

In 1 Peter 1:4 the word for reserved is a perfect participle. The inheritance is reserved in heaven or it is not. It extends from the past on into the future.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim


HP: So can we conclude from your statements here that if the truth of God is rejected they were never Christians in the first place?

DHK: Quite obviously, yes.

When the gospel is presented as the only way to heaven, and that message is rejected then that person is lost and never was saved or a Christian to begin with. You do understand what evangelism is, don't you?

HP: Yes I understand what evangelism is. My problem is this. You say it is quite obvious that if one rejects the truth of God they were never Christians in the first place, yet you believe all men that are Christians reject the Word of God. God’s Word says over and over again to keep the commandments. Here is one such passage. “Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.” This verse indeed represents the truth of God.

1Jo 2:4 “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Now if all that profess the name of Christ are liars, are not they failing to keep His commandments by rejecting God’s truth? If they accepted God’s truth would not the proof of the pudding of accepting God’s truth be evident by obedience to it? Why cannot we conclude that no one claiming to be a Christian is in fact a Christian, due to the fact that they all reject the truth of the message of obedience by continuing to be liars, at least according to you?

 

[tinytim]

I can give you scripture to support my beleifs that one can forfiet their faith. You will turn around and say I am misunderstanding them or taking them out of context. You will then give me scripture to support your view of eternal security. I will then say you are misunderstanding them and/or taking them out of context. I will give you a verse or two. You will say 'Oh yea, what about....", and I will say 'Oh yea, what about..." neither of us will change our beliefs because we have already settled it in our minds. We have prayed over it and studied as best we could to reach our conclussions. The best we can hope for is to agree to disagree, the worst would be to get into a name calling contest and belittle each other and accuse the other of being a heratic, unsaved, misled, and flase teacher. We would then ruin both our witnesses to others here on forum and possibly be banned.

So rather than go through all that, let's just shorten the process and agree to disagree. How about we meet in heaven and ask Christ to explain it to us. If your right, I'll let you make fun of me when we walk down the golden streets on our way to get fruit from the Tree of Life.

Love Ya,
keith

That's one of the cooolest posts I have ever seen on BB!..
Straight to the point.. and true.

See you then..

 

[Amy.G]

HP, I'm asking you to prove that OSAS is false. That is what you believe isn't it?

Stop saying we are wrong and get to posting scripture that proves your view. If you really believe that a born again Christian who has been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption can forfeit or lose (however you want to put it) his salvation, you should have no trouble posting scripture to support your view. See if you can change my mind.
That's what this thread is about.

 

[Martin Luther]

You say: "Only through repentance and obedience can man be justified." That is complete contrary to Scripture.

John 6:28. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29. Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Romans 3:28. Therefore we conclude thata man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 4:5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:9. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Romans 5:1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 5:2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Galatians 2:16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Galatians 3:26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

All this goes back to the fact that you do not understand the religion at the time of Paul. Most of these men had to unlearn what they thought was law salvation through the works of the law. They thought by their deeds, by the works of the law they were safe. They did not think they needed a Messiah. We are justified by faith, but clearly James explains what saving faith is. Maybe you should reread Hebrews 11 for a refresher on saving faith.


Revelation 3:4
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

 

[Martin Luther]

If we can loose our acceptance with God,then the most"LUCKY GUY" in scripture was the thief on the cross!! Jesus was kind to let him die with assurance of his outcome "TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE"(Luke 23:43). Gods seems pretty cruel to not let me die in an accident shorty after I accepted Him in this short life! :BangHead: I wounder if Noah built an Ark with pegs on the side instead of a door to go in,and God said "HOLD ON GANG!"Noah might had lost heart. Man.... what's the point if I might fall away "as if Jesus don't see my future" and intervene by Lightning or something. SMITE ME! SMITE ME but DON"T reject your elect!!:BangHead:

How was he lucky, he never got to live his life for the Master. He died in faith but had no works to offer to God.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

He fell away from the truth or the gospel of Christ. He heard it, he liked it for awhile, but wasn't willing to submit to God. And there is nothing in the text that implies that he was "abiding" in the truth.

First Amy, the Disciples question Jesus concerning this parable and Jesus elaborates further in verses 18-23:

18 Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”​

Now, look closely at verses 20-21, Jesus is talking about a specific kind of individual different from His first and last example. You’re “but” explanation has nothing to do with verses 20-21 specifically:

20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.​

Now, with verses 20-21, fresh in your mind, how much different is this individual from the individual that walks down the aisle of your Baptist Church to receive Christ during your invitational?

As former Baptists, my wife and I would go “soul winning” on Saturday’s. She would go with the wife of our assistant pastor and I would go with the assistant pastor. My wife visited a house were the gentleman living there was a former Baptist choir and Sunday school director. He no longer considered himself a “Christian”. Unfortunately, his grandson developed a rare disease as a child and after a long battle, succumbed to the disease, at which point he began to question God. This man was a ‘leader’ in a Baptist Church for 30 plus years and was saved as a child at a youth rally.

Now, those OSAS’ers would say…”he was never really saved to begin with”. That’s a bunch of bologna and this type of attitude smacks in the face of John 3:16…for he did believe in the salvation of Christ, and he served Christ in the Church. Only just like the parable example in Matthew 13:21, this man experienced trouble and persecution and he quickly fell away.

It’s a plain as day.

In XC
-

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ML: Maybe you should reread Hebrews 11 for a refresher on saving faith.

HP: I agree with you:thumbs: Many many have a false notion of saving faith and what it entails. Other factors are involved as well. A wrong view of the atonement and a wrong conception of love are involved as well. Love is not a special way of feeling but involves the activity of the will. Faith is not a nebulous mental assent but involves the will in active obedience, without which it will never save.

Viewing the atonement as a literal payment for sin I believe is one of the greatest roadblocks to truth, and is the bedrock of many false notions. Original sin plays strong in the mix as well.

It is strange how the drumbeat calling for proof continues to roll when passage after passage has been set forth that show clearly that the possibility of making shipwreck of the faith has been set forth.

Deception is a strange thing. It matters not the evidence, for deception often has an answer for everything. One thing is for certain, either they or I am deceived. One or the other is going to have a wake up call before God. We shall all give an account for every deed and every idle word spoken. We shall indeed see who was deceived and who was in reality fighting against God and His truth. The advise and admonition I find in Scripture for myself is indeed an ominous warning for all on this list as well.
1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets (of both genders I might add) are gone out into the world.”
And indeed legion is the number of them. May it not be named once among us.

 

[Amy.G]

Now, with verses 20-21, fresh in your mind, how much different is this individual from the individual that walks down the aisle of your Baptist Church to receive Christ during your invitational?

As former Baptists, my wife and I would go “soul winning” on Saturday’s. She would go with the wife of our assistant pastor and I would go with the assistant pastor. My wife visited a house were the gentleman living there was a former Baptist choir and Sunday school director. He no longer considered himself a “Christian”. Unfortunately, his grandson developed a rare disease as a child and after a long battle, succumbed to the disease, at which point he began to question God. This man was a ‘leader’ in a Baptist Church for 30 plus years and was saved as a child at a youth rally.

Now, those OSAS’ers would say…”he was never really saved to begin with”. That’s a bunch of bologna and this type of attitude smacks in the face of John 3:16…for he did believe in the salvation of Christ, and he served Christ in the Church. Only just like the parable example in Matthew 13:21, this man experienced trouble and persecution and he quickly fell away.

It’s a plain as day.

In XC

You're right. It is as plain as day.

Your post makes my point. Just because someone "serves" in the church does not make them a born again child of God. The man in your story had outward signs, but his heart was not right with God. This is exactly what Jesus is explaining in His parable of the sower. Many Jews at that time thought that because they followed the Law and were Abraham's descendants they were safe. But Jesus says there's more. He said that He is the gate and anyone who tries to enter another way is a thief. Going to church, serving in the church are good things, but doing those things doesn't make you saved. The man in your story had no root.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: I agree with you:thumbs: Many many have a false notion of saving faith and what it entails. Other factors are involved as well. A wrong view of the atonement and a wrong conception of love are involved as well. Love is not a special way of feeling but involves the activity of the will. Faith is not a nebulous mental assent but involves the will in active obedience, without which it will never save.

Viewing the atonement as a literal payment for sin I believe is one of the greatest roadblocks to truth, and is the bedrock of many false notions. Original sin plays strong in the mix as well.

It is strange how the drumbeat calling for proof continues to roll when passage after passage has been set forth that show clearly that the possibility of making shipwreck of the faith has been set forth.

Deception is a strange thing. It matters not the evidence, for deception often has an answer for everything. One thing is for certain, either they or I am deceived. One or the other is going to have a wake up call before God. We shall all give an account for every deed and every idle word spoken. We shall indeed see who was deceived and who was in reality fighting against God and His truth. The advise and admonition I find in Scripture for myself is indeed an ominous warning for all on this list as well.
1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets (of both genders I might add) are gone out into the world.”
And indeed legion is the number of them. May it not be named once among us.

Yet another post by HP telling me and others that we are wrong, but not offering any scripture to back his view.

Is this the best you can do?