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Prozac
- Thread starter TWade
- Start date
I believe that at least at times, taking a pill is the wrong choice for dealing with depression, especially if nothing further is done.
Example 1: my Aunt got super-depressed after her husband died. She took a prozac type pill. I believe that because she takes this pill, she doesn't realize that she needs to come to Jesus and find hope in him. I believe the real reason she is depressed is she doesn't believe and she had no hope for heaven and as a result this grim reminder of death (her husband dying) has really upset her. It will be an eternal tradgedy if she just continues to take a pill and never seeks God.
Example 2: My Dad is not a Christian and finally admidted he had a problem with anger. He took a prozac like pill. The problem is now he seems to feel no major need to seek pastoral counseling for his anger problem and unbelief. It will be an eternal tradgedy if he never seeks God and is falsely satisfied with just taking a pill.
Example 1: my Aunt got super-depressed after her husband died. She took a prozac type pill. I believe that because she takes this pill, she doesn't realize that she needs to come to Jesus and find hope in him. I believe the real reason she is depressed is she doesn't believe and she had no hope for heaven and as a result this grim reminder of death (her husband dying) has really upset her. It will be an eternal tradgedy if she just continues to take a pill and never seeks God.
Example 2: My Dad is not a Christian and finally admidted he had a problem with anger. He took a prozac like pill. The problem is now he seems to feel no major need to seek pastoral counseling for his anger problem and unbelief. It will be an eternal tradgedy if he never seeks God and is falsely satisfied with just taking a pill.
Another fact that has not been addressed in this thread, (and I will defer to the good Doctor Meadows for further clarification), is that other medical illnesses, such as diabetes, can manifest depression based upon blood sugar levels. Ever hear of postpartum depression or the "baby blues?" It is related to hormonal imbalances after pregnancy.
There are different types and reasons for depression which some people on here do not seem to understand.
Some causes for depression are root problems of anger, fear, doubt, and other spiritual problems/sin.
Some causes for depression are substance abuse (again, spiritual problems/sin).
Sometimes depression is caused by a demonic attack - the forces of evil coming against a person.
And some causes for depression are definitely clinical/medical.
It is nothing but painting with a broad brush loaded with lack of spiritual discernment and maturity which leads some to be so judgmental and attribute a person's physical malady to that person sinning. Sad.
One thing I have learned through the years is to choose "wise" spiritual counsel. That is certainly not apparent in some of these posts.
There are different types and reasons for depression which some people on here do not seem to understand.
Some causes for depression are root problems of anger, fear, doubt, and other spiritual problems/sin.
Some causes for depression are substance abuse (again, spiritual problems/sin).
Sometimes depression is caused by a demonic attack - the forces of evil coming against a person.
And some causes for depression are definitely clinical/medical.
It is nothing but painting with a broad brush loaded with lack of spiritual discernment and maturity which leads some to be so judgmental and attribute a person's physical malady to that person sinning. Sad.
One thing I have learned through the years is to choose "wise" spiritual counsel. That is certainly not apparent in some of these posts.
I agree LadyEagle that there are many causes of depression. I would like less discussion on whether or not it is a sin and more discussion on alternatives to drug therapy. If drugs are so bad as some of you say, have you had more success with something else? Has anybody has experience with laying on of hands and seeing a depressed person healed? What about counseling? What about the person just recovering on their own in time?
Charles Meadows
New Member
Calvin 12 has made a good point. I certainly never would advocate getting a quick fix with a pill and not addressing the important spiritual problems which often accompany depression. This cannot be stressed enough. Unfortunately I see alot of people who want a pill to fix everything. There are some of these who actually SHOULD get a Daniel David style talking to (did I actually say that?).
The problem that too many don't recognize is that there IS a biological element to depression. I'll try explaining this very simply again!! Some people feel ANGUISH and EMOTIONAL PAIN for NO REASON. This is not the same as the "lazy" person who wants a pill to fix everything, wants 100% all the time, and wants not to have to pay for any of it! There are some who just need to get a grip - and for them this "depression" IS SIN. THIS IS WHAT PAUL IS INVEIGHING AGAINST.
But those of you (especially pastors) need to realize that there ARE Christians who have prayed and prayed and prayed some more with a right heart who still feel this anguish inside. Paul is not referring to these people.
I promise you (and I CAN speak from experience) that if you counsel these people that they just need to get over it you WILL cuase harm to another believer.
The problem that too many don't recognize is that there IS a biological element to depression. I'll try explaining this very simply again!! Some people feel ANGUISH and EMOTIONAL PAIN for NO REASON. This is not the same as the "lazy" person who wants a pill to fix everything, wants 100% all the time, and wants not to have to pay for any of it! There are some who just need to get a grip - and for them this "depression" IS SIN. THIS IS WHAT PAUL IS INVEIGHING AGAINST.
But those of you (especially pastors) need to realize that there ARE Christians who have prayed and prayed and prayed some more with a right heart who still feel this anguish inside. Paul is not referring to these people.
I promise you (and I CAN speak from experience) that if you counsel these people that they just need to get over it you WILL cuase harm to another believer.
Charles Meadows
New Member
Oh by the way that example from Lady Eagle is very good. Postpartum depression is very real and can be DEVASTATING. A good friend of ours is a pastor of a local baptist church. After the birth of a second child his wife went into a severe episode of depression. She could barely motivate herself to get out of bed! Needless to say this is a strong Christian woman who is definitely of a right heart and mind. She DID respond well to an antidepressant and recovered well. She is now off the antidepressant.
Other illnesses such as diabetes and cancer, and heart disease are all linked to depression as well.
And what about seizures? What do you all think seizures are? They are rapid sequential discharges of nerve impulses. Anticonvulsant medications share some similarities with antidepressants - and actually are often far more sedating.
I like bibilical studies and I like (kind of have to!) medicine - and I like to think my studies have made me reasonably knowledgeable. I however know NOTHING about plumbing, home-building, furniture making etc. I also do not just assume that I can get all the important answers about these things by reading the bible! Some of you guys should realize that the bible was not written to be a medical text - and notn every answer to health questions is specifically answered therein. In fact your insisting on literal (mis)application of verses blinds you to alot of Christ's exapmles of how to deal with people!!!
Other illnesses such as diabetes and cancer, and heart disease are all linked to depression as well.
And what about seizures? What do you all think seizures are? They are rapid sequential discharges of nerve impulses. Anticonvulsant medications share some similarities with antidepressants - and actually are often far more sedating.
I like bibilical studies and I like (kind of have to!) medicine - and I like to think my studies have made me reasonably knowledgeable. I however know NOTHING about plumbing, home-building, furniture making etc. I also do not just assume that I can get all the important answers about these things by reading the bible! Some of you guys should realize that the bible was not written to be a medical text - and notn every answer to health questions is specifically answered therein. In fact your insisting on literal (mis)application of verses blinds you to alot of Christ's exapmles of how to deal with people!!!
There are a number of researches within the medical/scientific field that claim that Homosexuality is not a choice, but rather happens at birth. (Of course this can’t and has not been proven.) But we are certainly led to believe this with credible media forms, scientist, and from people who even experience homosexual tendencies. Oft we hear from them, “what did you choose to be straight?” They can’t help it right?
But, didn’t Paul know better? Why even write what he did in Romans 1, or 1 Cor. 6:9? It seems that what we should do is discard these passages of Scripture because modern science seems to have discovered that it is actually not their fault to be queer. And homosexual’s themselves testifying that they can’t help themselves. It could be that the Holy Spirit of God goofed. Or maybe He only meant that Homosexual’s who are not born that way are sinning?
Of course this is the same “science” that teaches we came from a collection of molecules from a pond somewhere and evolved into a more complex form of chemicals.
The entire Word of God is not fuzzy concerning this. Our mind’s are to be renewed. We are to have the fruit of Joy. We are to think on these things (Phil. 4.) We are to die to self. David felt that his source of strength would be on the Law of God. His medicine was found in meditating on the Word of God. But then, maybe the Holy Spirit got it wrong here too. Perhaps the Spirit should have informed us that with the recent uses of modern “prescribed” dope, we only have to follow Philippians 4 when we are only a little depressed. He should have written to us to include drugs in our counseling sessions. No longer would I tell people that God is their answer, found within the pages of the incredible Scripture, but that drugs are their only hope.
But, didn’t Paul know better? Why even write what he did in Romans 1, or 1 Cor. 6:9? It seems that what we should do is discard these passages of Scripture because modern science seems to have discovered that it is actually not their fault to be queer. And homosexual’s themselves testifying that they can’t help themselves. It could be that the Holy Spirit of God goofed. Or maybe He only meant that Homosexual’s who are not born that way are sinning?
Of course this is the same “science” that teaches we came from a collection of molecules from a pond somewhere and evolved into a more complex form of chemicals.
The entire Word of God is not fuzzy concerning this. Our mind’s are to be renewed. We are to have the fruit of Joy. We are to think on these things (Phil. 4.) We are to die to self. David felt that his source of strength would be on the Law of God. His medicine was found in meditating on the Word of God. But then, maybe the Holy Spirit got it wrong here too. Perhaps the Spirit should have informed us that with the recent uses of modern “prescribed” dope, we only have to follow Philippians 4 when we are only a little depressed. He should have written to us to include drugs in our counseling sessions. No longer would I tell people that God is their answer, found within the pages of the incredible Scripture, but that drugs are their only hope.
It does also sicken me the new psychology/psychiatrist agenda to turn everything into an illness and take away personal responsibility to repent.
However I think there are situations where medicine can help in some cases - but any spiritual issues involved have got to be dealt with - especially when the depression involves an unsaved person - they have got to get to know Jesus and not use meds as a substitute.
However I think there are situations where medicine can help in some cases - but any spiritual issues involved have got to be dealt with - especially when the depression involves an unsaved person - they have got to get to know Jesus and not use meds as a substitute.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
You are comparing apples to oranges.
Homosexual may be genetically predisposed to their orientation. God didn't say one way or another. What he did say is that he requires His children to not physically participate in sex between two men or two women. This is what he requires of His children. He didn't say it would be easy or that some wouldn't fall back into the 'lifestyle'.
Same with drunkeness. God tell us to not be a drunkard. Modern science has told us that alcholism is a disease. God didn't say it wasn't a disease. He said don't make the choices that would lead you to be a drunk.
The above examples are apples. Now for the orange.
A person cannot CHOOSE to be or not be depressed. We can choose not to have a pity party. We can choose not to worry. We can choose to get up and go to work. But the truely depressed person cannnot choose to not be depressed. Somewhere along the line you have misunderstood what true depression is.
I won't argue that some people who are lazy or have unconfessed sin in there life hide behind the diagnosis of depression. And that is sin for them.
But the truely depressed person has no more choice over the way their brain works than a diabetic has over the way their pancreous works.
For you to tell me, a sister in Christ, that I must have sin in my life that is causing my depression, makes me out a liar. I don't much care for that.
I CAN make a choice here. I can choose to get angry and leave the discussion. Or I can choose to excercise the fruits of the Spirit and forgive you and go on with the actual discussion this thread was started on.....
Homosexual may be genetically predisposed to their orientation. God didn't say one way or another. What he did say is that he requires His children to not physically participate in sex between two men or two women. This is what he requires of His children. He didn't say it would be easy or that some wouldn't fall back into the 'lifestyle'.
Same with drunkeness. God tell us to not be a drunkard. Modern science has told us that alcholism is a disease. God didn't say it wasn't a disease. He said don't make the choices that would lead you to be a drunk.
The above examples are apples. Now for the orange.
A person cannot CHOOSE to be or not be depressed. We can choose not to have a pity party. We can choose not to worry. We can choose to get up and go to work. But the truely depressed person cannnot choose to not be depressed. Somewhere along the line you have misunderstood what true depression is.
I won't argue that some people who are lazy or have unconfessed sin in there life hide behind the diagnosis of depression. And that is sin for them.
But the truely depressed person has no more choice over the way their brain works than a diabetic has over the way their pancreous works.
For you to tell me, a sister in Christ, that I must have sin in my life that is causing my depression, makes me out a liar. I don't much care for that.
I CAN make a choice here. I can choose to get angry and leave the discussion. Or I can choose to excercise the fruits of the Spirit and forgive you and go on with the actual discussion this thread was started on.....
menageriekeeper - I agree with you that for those who are truly depressed, it can be hard or impossible to just choose not to be depressed.
Also to me its a big difference between a non-Christian who is depressed and a Christian, because for the non-Christian getting saved is, as always, key, and could easily help with the depression. For the Christian the depression could be spiritual warfare or family disposition or who knows what. I guess now that I think about it, it bothers me less when a Christian takes a med because you know the have already dealt with the salvation issue.
Who is the "you" that were refering to in your previous post?
Also to me its a big difference between a non-Christian who is depressed and a Christian, because for the non-Christian getting saved is, as always, key, and could easily help with the depression. For the Christian the depression could be spiritual warfare or family disposition or who knows what. I guess now that I think about it, it bothers me less when a Christian takes a med because you know the have already dealt with the salvation issue.
Who is the "you" that were refering to in your previous post?
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Okay Calvin, back to your question. Yes sometimes the symptoms of depression will go away on their own. My brother suffered from an episode very similar to mine. No energy, wanted to be left alone, and didn't want to talk to his own family.
Because of our experience with our mothers addiction, he was unwilling to try medication for his episode. It had never happened before and he thought it might just be 'one of those things'. He did not have young children so he decided to 'tough it out'. It seems to have worked with him.
Is he really cured of his depression? Only he and God know. But, it is at a level he feels comfortable dealing with.
Counseling? Well after my doctor talked to me and with his knowing me as well as he did(he was a family friend) he decided that counseling wouldn't fix the problem. I needed medicine.
Counseling also didn't work with my mother. There seem to be things so deep that she just won't/can't bring them up to deal with them. We've had to leave it in God's hands and keep her medicated. At least the addiction isn't a problem anymore. But it left its mark and my mother will never be normal, and she may never have been normal at the start.
My personal belief is that counseling is only as good as the person being counseled makes it. It can give you new methods for dealing with your symptoms. It might even dig out some underlying problem that should have been dealt with years ago. But it is a highly individual thing. It won't work for everyone.
A Christian should go to a Christian counseler/psychiatrist. We have a particular way of looking at things that a non-Christian may not respect or understand. Of course I am biased and say everyone should go to a Christian counselor but in the real world it is not going to happen that way. We must deal with non-Christians with the same compassion we would give to our brothers and sisters.
Because of our experience with our mothers addiction, he was unwilling to try medication for his episode. It had never happened before and he thought it might just be 'one of those things'. He did not have young children so he decided to 'tough it out'. It seems to have worked with him.
Is he really cured of his depression? Only he and God know. But, it is at a level he feels comfortable dealing with.
Counseling? Well after my doctor talked to me and with his knowing me as well as he did(he was a family friend) he decided that counseling wouldn't fix the problem. I needed medicine.
Counseling also didn't work with my mother. There seem to be things so deep that she just won't/can't bring them up to deal with them. We've had to leave it in God's hands and keep her medicated. At least the addiction isn't a problem anymore. But it left its mark and my mother will never be normal, and she may never have been normal at the start.
My personal belief is that counseling is only as good as the person being counseled makes it. It can give you new methods for dealing with your symptoms. It might even dig out some underlying problem that should have been dealt with years ago. But it is a highly individual thing. It won't work for everyone.
A Christian should go to a Christian counseler/psychiatrist. We have a particular way of looking at things that a non-Christian may not respect or understand. Of course I am biased and say everyone should go to a Christian counselor but in the real world it is not going to happen that way. We must deal with non-Christians with the same compassion we would give to our brothers and sisters.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
We crossed posted Calvin.
The 'you' refers generally to everyone on this thread who has suggested that depression is a sin and not a medical condition. Their posts speak for themselve.
The 'you' refers generally to everyone on this thread who has suggested that depression is a sin and not a medical condition. Their posts speak for themselve.
Just as I thought, there has been much discussion but NO Scripture that tells us that depression is a disease, not a choice.
Yes.
Yes. Paul said "Don't be anxious." That tells me I am not to be anxious. He tells how to avoid anxiety. We do this by giving everything to God with prayer and thanksgiving and by controlling our thinking. Never does the Bible suggest that some people "Just can't help it." If they can't, then Paul got it wrong. I am sorry, I believe Paul.
I don't know, ask them. The Bible tells us we are to let the Spirit control our minds, I can't understand why anyone would choose to do otherwise but they do. The fact that we had to be told to do this suggests that many choose not to.
No, and the Bible doesn't say "Do not have cancer." It does not say not to have heart disease, nor does it tell us that the fruit of the Spirit is the opposite of diabetes.
That is the difference between physical ailments and mental ones. The Bible instructs us how to behave mentally. We are to renew our minds, think on certain things and we are told that doing this through the Spirit will lead to peace and joy NOT depression, anxiety and mental illness.
There is NO verse that says we can not be sick physically.
The problem most definately is not that Paul didn't get it. It is that WE don't get it. Emotions follow our thinking and can be controlled. We are to let Christ control our mind. Period.
Do you have Scripture that says there is some excuse for a christian to not experience joy, or to be anxious or to worry or to not have peace? There are several that say the SHOULD. I choose to beleive those Scriptures.
~Lorelei
The Word of God. Philippians 4, the verses I quoted above, several psalms written by David. The list is long.
Yes.
Yes. Paul said "Don't be anxious." That tells me I am not to be anxious. He tells how to avoid anxiety. We do this by giving everything to God with prayer and thanksgiving and by controlling our thinking. Never does the Bible suggest that some people "Just can't help it." If they can't, then Paul got it wrong. I am sorry, I believe Paul.
I don't know, ask them. The Bible tells us we are to let the Spirit control our minds, I can't understand why anyone would choose to do otherwise but they do. The fact that we had to be told to do this suggests that many choose not to.
No, and the Bible doesn't say "Do not have cancer." It does not say not to have heart disease, nor does it tell us that the fruit of the Spirit is the opposite of diabetes.
That is the difference between physical ailments and mental ones. The Bible instructs us how to behave mentally. We are to renew our minds, think on certain things and we are told that doing this through the Spirit will lead to peace and joy NOT depression, anxiety and mental illness.
There is NO verse that says we can not be sick physically.
The problem most definately is not that Paul didn't get it. It is that WE don't get it. Emotions follow our thinking and can be controlled. We are to let Christ control our mind. Period.
Do you have Scripture that says there is some excuse for a christian to not experience joy, or to be anxious or to worry or to not have peace? There are several that say the SHOULD. I choose to beleive those Scriptures.
~Lorelei
I quoted Scripture that proves otherwise. The Bible says, "Don't be anxious," do you have a verse that says the opposite?
The Bible says the fruit of the Spirit includes joy and peace, do you have one that proves that there is something that overpowers that?
Please tell me how quoting Paul saying "Don't be anxious" is "misapplying" that verse. Paul not only tells us not to be anxious, he tells us HOW not to be anxious!
Did depression exist or did it only come into existance when anti-depressants did? The Bible is clear that we are to have joy and peace and that we are not worry or be anxious. Are you suggesting that the Bible is incomplete because it didn't take into consideration all those people who couldn't help it? The Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit, are you saying that He didn't know about depression yet either?
The Bible doesn't say not to have appendecitis. It does say not to be anxious and to walk in the Spirit that give us peace and joy.
You are right, it isn't a textbook of medicine. The Bible was written about our Spiritual condition, not our physical one. The fact is that the Bible does address such issues as depression, anxiety, worry, peace, and joy. Why did it address these things if they are merely "medical" ailments that can't be fixed Spiritually? Are we now able to experience the fruit of the Spirit through medicine? If not, how can the opposite to be true? How can an illness keep us from experiencing that which we know is Spiritual?
~Lorelei
God didn't tell me in His word NOT to have those things, so I haven't turned my back on Him. He does say NOT to be anxious, so I have learned to trust in Him and am now, no longer anxious! How wonderful it is to experience the peace He has promised!
No, I don't know more than they do, but God does. His Bible tells me that what you say is not true. Just a hint, just because the researcher may "know" more than you, that doesn't mean they are telling you the truth. I read an article that stated that they have found that homosexuality was caused genetically too. The Bible however, tells us that this is sin, not a genetic disorder. Of course, when you read the full article and study it out, you find out that they found a gene that can determine what sex a baby will be. Wow! The researchers think that proves that homosexuality is genetic! I wonder what "proof" your researchers have. I also wonder if the entire medical community agrees with your researchers. I also wonder if science won't prove those researchers wrong in the future.
Quoting research that you know nothing about doesn't make you sound smarter. Since when is the goal of Christians to "appear educated?" Ignorance is using a medical disease like Down Syndrome and equating it to what the Bible says is wrong. Down Syndrome is a genetic disorder that causes a problem with physical things. A person with Down Syndrome is still expected not to be anxious and to be filled with joy and peace. Not only are they expected to, they can and do.
My daughter started using sign language before she was two years old. The third word she learned to sign was Jesus. If you are going to accuse others of being ignorant, try not to speak about things you know nothing about. I did not appreciate your post in which you used a disease that my daughter has to try spark an emotional response in order to make your point. Using a person with "Down Syndrome" as an example of someone who "can't help" being the way they are and equating that with a person who according to Scripture CAN help the way they are is not only ignorant, it's rude.
~Lorelei
I Am Blessed 24
Active Member
At least three moderators have asked that this thread be brought back to the OP's question.
This question has NOTHING to do with sin! He did not ask if it was a sin. And I, for one, am tired of hearing people called liars and sinners because they take medicine!
Why must all these threads be hijacked???
For the people who want to debate if depression is a sin.....please start your OWN thread on depression - this one is about Prozac!
Thank you!
§ue
Charles Meadows
New Member
Lorelei
"I quoted Scripture that proves otherwise. The Bible says, "Don't be anxious," do you have a verse that says the opposite?"
Only the first three words are correct. "You quoted scripture..."
I assume that by anxious you refer to Paul's use of "merimnao" - used here as a present imperative. This word refers to having care for things of life - specifically spending alot of time worrying about the little things of life and not the things of God, thus being carnally minded. It does not address, nor does it mean biologic depression.
Yes you quoted scripture - never mind that you misapply it!
"I quoted Scripture that proves otherwise. The Bible says, "Don't be anxious," do you have a verse that says the opposite?"
Only the first three words are correct. "You quoted scripture..."
I assume that by anxious you refer to Paul's use of "merimnao" - used here as a present imperative. This word refers to having care for things of life - specifically spending alot of time worrying about the little things of life and not the things of God, thus being carnally minded. It does not address, nor does it mean biologic depression.
Yes you quoted scripture - never mind that you misapply it!