PSA Justice vs Biblical Justice

[JonC]

This is all arguing semantics that have no real effect on what Christ did. It’s already done.

It is not semantics but defining not only what Christ has done (reconciled man and God) but what He is actively doing.

The "it" is Christ reconciling mankind and God - the Firstborn. That is accomplished.

But now is the ministry of reconciliation whereby men may be reconciled to God, and Christ mediating on behalf of those who believe as their High Priest in the present.

The future is the realization of salvation - that we will be made into His image, righteous, glorified.

 

[easternstar]

This is an excellent thread. So far, I have found no need to reply to the details. I'm just enjoying reading it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I agree, with the caveat that this was justice in the biblical sence (righteousness), reconciling God and man in the Person of Christ (Christ being this Reconciliation, the Firstborn of all who will believe) rather than God punishing our sins to satisfy some secular judicial philosophy.

I'm not sure that 'the soul that sins shall die' is a secular judicial philosophy. The good news is that the Lord Jesus has willingly taken upon Himself our sins and the punishment due to us (Isaiah 53:5 etc.) and that as a result we are indeed reconciled to God (Romans 5:6-9).

 

[JonC]

I'm not sure that 'the soul that sins shall die' is a secular judicial philosophy. The good news is that the Lord Jesus has willingly taken upon Himself our sins and the punishment due to us (Isaiah 53:5 etc.) and that as a result we are indeed reconciled to God (Romans 5:6-9).

It is not a secular philosophy but the context is secular. That is a verse many corrupt by expecting an English translation from the context - they misuse the English word "soul", which is not in the part of the verse you quote...the verse says "it shall die" referring back to הַנֶּ֥פֶשׁ which means "life" (that which breathes)...it is the same word in Genesis 1:20 and 21 (living creatures).

"Soul" is not a mistranslation as it means "person" (you hear captains acvounting for the "souls on board"). But choosing different meanings for English words chosen is poor study.

The verse is from Ezekiel 18. The context is secular (God prohibiting Israel from punishing people for the crimes of their fathers). God describes His justice several passages down.

But yes, it is the person who sins that shall die unless that person repents and has a new heart, then God will forgive that person (Ezekiel 18).

 

[37818]

Matthew 20:28, Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his | soul | a ransom for many.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God punishing our sins to satisfy some secular judicial philosophy

I'm not sure that 'the soul that sins shall die' is a secular judicial philosophy.

It is not a secular philosophy but the context is secular.

I think perhaps you ought to make up your mind.

But yes, it is the person who sins that shall die unless that person repents and has a new heart, then God will forgive that person (Ezekiel 18).

Leviticus 17:11. 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'
Hebrews 9:22. 'And according to the law almost all things are purified [or 'cleansed'] with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission [or 'forgiveness'].'
1 Peter 1:18-19. 'Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things like silver or gold, from your aimless way of life received by tradition from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.'

 

[JonC]

I think perhaps you ought to make up your mind.

Leviticus 17:11. 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'

You miss my point.

The only verses that applies in your quote is Leviticus. The reason is it is the only one that uses the same word for "souls" (Ezekiel was not written in the same language as Hebrews and 1 Peter). And again, in Leviticus...it means "life", "creation".

But we know this also because the context of Ezekiel.

In Ezekiel "the soul/ person who sings must die" is not referencing God's judgment but the actions of the Israelites - God telling THEM not to punish the sons for sins of the fathers and to abandon their saying.

Men do not have the power to kill or destroy the souls of other men. They can only take our life.

So you have the history of the use of that Hebrew word (that you pretend was either English or Greek), you have the context of Ezekiel 18:1-4, and you have the fact that the verse was God commanding Israel not to hold the sons guilty of the sins of the fathers.


Interestingly enough, were you to treat Ezeliel 18 as an actual chapter rather than a mini-reference tool, the passage refutes your theology.

1. God commands Israel not to hold the sons accountable for the sins of the father - the person who sins must die.

2. Then God (several verses afterwards) transitions from Israel judging the sons to His judgment which He says they do not accept.

3. This judgment is forgiving the sins of men based on them "turning from doing evil", "turning to God", "a new heart", "repenting".


You are trying to study the Bible, and I applaud your effort. But you are doing so by extracting words and phrases you think will support your theology. That is a mistake.

 

[JonC]

I think perhaps you ought to make up your mind.

You misunderstood (there is no "make up my mind").

In the passage God is telling Israel to abandon a saying and a practice.

The practice was secular (Israelites judging the sons for the sins of the father). But the philosophy that the one who sins shall die is appropriate governance within a secular society (do not punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty).

About a quarter down the passage God transitions to His justice.

It is good that you are trying to study the Bible. But you need to study the Bible instead of using it as a tool to support your theology. Read the passage as a whole. See what the passage is actually saying rather than pulling out phrases you think supports your theology.

A good reference book that may help you a lot is Grasping God's Word. It will help prevent you from making those mistakes.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You miss my point.

I don't think I do.

The only verses that applies in your quote is Leviticus. The reason is it is the only one that uses the same word for "souls" (Ezekiel was not written in the same language as Hebrews and 1 Peter). And again, in Leviticus...it means "life", "creation".

So the entire New Testament, since it is in Greek, is useless in understanding the atonement. Is that what you're saying?
Now the word that you are being so precious about is nepes or nephesh (Strongs 5315 in case anyone is interested). In appears almost 800 times in the O.T. and has a very large semantic range, as many Hebrew words do. For example, it can be translated 'appetite' (Prov. 23:2; Eccl. 6:7), but in the KJV it is translated as 'soul' 428 times, 'life' 119 times, 'person' 30 times and as over 20 other words, including 'pleasure' 3 times (Deut. 23:24; Psalm 105:22; Jer. 34:16).
But let's look at Lev. 17:11. 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.' Whatever you think 'soul' means in Ezek. 18:20, it clearly states in Lev. 17:11 that it is only the shedding of blood that makes atonement for it. That is why I referenced Hebrews 9:22. Do you really think that the writer of Hebrews, and those who read his letter, did not have nepes in their minds? And do you really think that the Apostle Peter did not have nepes in his mind when he wrote 1 Peter 1: 18-19? You can't really be that silly, can you?

But we know this also because the context of Ezekiel.

In Ezekiel "the soul/ person who sings must die" is not referencing God's judgment but the actions of the Israelites - God telling THEM not to punish the sons for sins of the fathers and to abandon their saying.

Men do not have the power to kill or destroy the souls of other men. They can only take our life.

So you have the history of the use of that Hebrew word (that you pretend was either English or Greek), you have the context of Ezekiel 18:1-4, and you have the fact that the verse was God commanding Israel not to hold the sons guilty of the sins of the fathers.


Interestingly enough, were you to treat Ezeliel 18 as an actual chapter rather than a mini-reference tool, the passage refutes your theology.

1. God commands Israel not to hold the sons accountable for the sins of the father - the person who sins must die.

2. Then God (several verses afterwards) transitions from Israel judging the sons to His judgment which He says they do not accept.

3. This judgment is forgiving the sins of men based on them "turning from doing evil", "turning to God", "a new heart", "repenting".

But were you to treat the whole Bible as one book, instead of bouncing up and down on Ezek. 18 like a trampoline, you would realise that you cannot use one chapter to prove a doctrine. Yes, certainly God calls upon the Israelites to repent, turn to God and get a new heart, but that does not alter the fact that throughout the Bible it is made clear that only by sacrifice can God's righteous anger be averted. If the Israelites truly repent, they will offer sacrifices with a pure heart and they will be accepted. I am currently preaching through Nehemiah, and after readings, prayers and the confession of sins , the people signed a covenant to 'exact from ourselves yearly one-third of a shekel for the service of the house of God; for the showbread, for the regular grain offering, for the regular burnt offering .......... for the sin offering to make atonement for Israel......' (Neh. 10:32-33). Why did they need to make sin offerings when they had already repented and turned to God? Because 'without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.'

Now let's look at Isaiah 53. 'When You make His soul [Heb. nepes] an offering for sin ........... He shall see the labour of His soul [Heb. nepes] and be satisfied ............. Because He poured out His soul [Heb. nepes] unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors.' (vs. 10-12). Whatever nepes means in Ezek. 18, the Lord Jesus offered His nepes to make atonement for sinners.

You are trying to study the Bible, and I applaud your effort. But you are doing so by extracting words and phrases you think will support your theology. That is a mistake.

Please don't patronize me. It is you who has settled on what you think is the meaning of one word in one chapter of one book to try and spoof your way through this thread.