Psalms 51:5

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: They were somehow taken into heaven in a supernatural way. As to their physical bodies we don't know exactly what happened. The Scripture is silent. One thing we can be fairly certain of: They don't have their resurrection bodies yet. That is still a future event.

HP Does the word ‘translated’ have any meaning to you? Does the fact it says that Enoch did not see death have any meaning to you? As for ‘resurrected’ bodies, I disagree. Who was that standing with Christ on the mount of transfiguration? Mt 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Could they not have had their resurrection bodies? How might a resurrected body differ from the bodies they had on the mount of transfiguration? I am not saying there is none, but simply that I cannot imagine any meaningful distinction.


There are no bodies left when translation occurs. Such was not the case with say Moses, for we know that Satan disputed with God over his body even though it was not found. Moses was obviously not translated in the same manner as Enoch and Elijah.

 

[RAdam]

I don't think we can say that Moses and Elijah did have bodies.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Certainly not physical bodies, but they were clearly recognizable as being who they were. Sounds like a translated body to me, one that can appear and disappear.

 

[RAdam]

We don't know enough about exactly what a saint is like after death to make too many conclusions about this, other than the face that they have been separated from their physical bodies and will one day be reunited with that body, only it will be changed.

 

[DHK]

Certainly not physical bodies, but they were clearly recognizable as being who they were. Sounds like a translated body to me, one that can appear and disappear.

God allowed Samuel to appear to Saul as well, but I doubt he had a resurrection body.

Matthew 17:2-3 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mark 9:2-4 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Notice the change in Jesus. His face did shine as the sun. His clothing was white as the light. He did not appear normal to them, and yet He did not have his resurrection body yet.
I believe the same was true with Moses and Elijah at this time. It was an appearance without the resurrection body. They could be seen without a resurrection body. They could be identified. Even that is a mystery to us. There were no pictures in those days. How were Peter, James and John able to recognize these two men, never having seen them before? Moses lived 4,000 years before their time.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

First, in the case of Enoch and Elijah, their body was immediately translated, no physical body left period to be resurrected later. Does anyone have any Scriptural reason why God could not resurrect anyone at any given time He so desires? What about those that are said to have come forth from the grave after Christ was resurrected? What’s with that? Did those have to die again or could ‘the possibility’ exist they simply were translated back into the kingdom of heaven after finishing their missions?

 

[DHK]

First, in the case of Enoch and Elijah, their body was immediately translated, no physical body left period to be resurrected later. Does anyone have any Scriptural reason why God could not resurrect anyone at any given time He so desires? What about those that are said to have come forth from the grave after Christ was resurrected? What’s with that? Did those have to die again or could ‘the possibility’ exist they simply were translated back into the kingdom of heaven after finishing their missions?

First, understand that God is sovereign. He is not held in check by the philosophies of HP. He created us; he can do with us as He pleases. He is God.
Second, note that the Bible does say: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Remember, you were not a witness to these events. You must go on an abbreviated account that is written in the Bible. Not every detail is explained or given.
Third, the resurrection is still a future event. The only one to have risen from the dead permanently is Christ. We serve a risen Saviour. That is the entire foundation of our salvation; our faith.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK:That is the entire foundation of our salvation; our faith.

HP: So on and on the shell game is played. Now the foundation of our faith is not 'all of God' but back under the shell of 'our faith.'

STAND STILL DHK, lift up all the shells and pick one or the other. Is the foundation of our faith 'all of God' or is it 'our' faith?

 

[DHK]

HP: So on and on the shell game is played. Now the foundation of our faith is not 'all of God' but back under the shell of 'our faith.'

STAND STILL DHK, lift up all the shells and pick one or the other. Is the foundation of our faith 'all of God' or is it 'our' faith?

You still don't get it?? Salvation is all of God--foundation and all. I have said that so many times I can't count them all. Why can't you understand that simple truth?
Do you want a simple Scripture?

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

There it is.
Not only is the foundation Christ. So is the building. All is Christ. He paid it all. He said "It is finished." There is nothing we can do?"
What part of salvation do you think you can participate in HP?
His atonement maybe??
Salvation is all of God. Understand??

It is a gift. Eph.2:8,9; Romans 6:23.
Do you understand the concept of a gift?
Have you ever given a gift to a little child?
Does the child receive it? How? By faith! By good faith that what you give is not a bomb to blow the child up. In other words, by faith that whatever you give the child is good and not evil. That is what Jesus was referring to when he said to be like the little children. Their simplicity of faith. Faith that the Father will give you salvation. The faith of the child is not work. It is simply receiving the gift provided.

Why are you intent on complicating such a simple message that even a child can understand?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Why are you intent on complicating such a simple message that even a child can understand?

HP: Because the message you are giving is not according to truth or the Scriptures.

 

[DHK]

HP: Because the message you are giving is not according to truth or the Scriptures.

I have quoted to you Scripture after Scripture.
If it is not according to truth, then tell me: What part of salvation did you play a part in? How many sins of the world did you atone for?
Salvation is all of God. But HP denies this. The only conclusion of his denial is that he had a part of God's salvation. Amazing!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: If it is not according to truth, then tell me: What part of salvation did you play a part in? How many sins of the world did you atone for?

HP: I have told you repeatedly absolutely none, but that does not mean a Sovereign God does not require me to engage my will voluntarily with His plan of redemption, without which I will not be saved.

DHK: Salvation is all of God. But HP denies this.

HP: I can play your silly games. READ MY LIPS. SALVATION IS ALL OF GOD. ( of course the astute and fair reader clearly understands I am speaking of any limiting that remark to the grounds of salvation and not the stated conditions of salvation which are repentance and faith)

 

[RAdam]

HP, who saved you? Did Christ save you or did you save yourself?

According to what you've been stating on here concerning conditions of salvation, I have to conclude you saved yourself. In fact, I have to conclude that Jesus is no real savior. A savior saves after all, and you say that He hasn't saved a single person. He simply made it possible if they would take the necessary steps. Therefore, the sinner is responsible for his/her salvation. After all, had the sinner not taken the necessary steps he/she would not be heaven bound.

Either Jesus is a savior or He isn't. Since His name means Savior, and the angel told Joseph that "He shall save His people from their sins", I have to conclude that either He did it or the bible is lying. Since the latter is impossible, I'm going side with the scriptures and believe that Jesus put away sins by the sacrifice of Himself, that He by one offering hath forever perfected them that are sanctified, that He bought us with His own blood, that He reconciled us to God by His own death, that He came in the fullness of time to redeem us from under the law, that He condemned sin in the flesh that the righteousness of the law might be fullfilled in us, that He brought in an everlasting righteousness, etc.

 

[DHK]

HP: I have told you repeatedly absolutely none, butthat does not mean a Sovereighn God does not require me to engage my will voluntarily with His plan of redemption, without which I will not be saved.


HP: I can play your silly games. READ MY LIPS. SALVATION IS ALL OF GOD. ( of course the astute and fair reader clearly understands I am speaking of any limiting that remark to the grounds of salvation and not the stated conditions of salvation which are repentance and faith)

Salvation is unconditional. What conditions did God place on it.
Conditions mean work. What work do you have to do to gain salvation?
Do you carry a cross? Do you make a pilgrimmage? Do you whip yourself?
What are the works required for salvation; the conditions that you are imposing upon yourself. Please list them. For the Lord has said there are none. It is a gift; unconditional.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Salvation is unconditional. What conditions did God place on it.

HP: Initially repentance and faith.

DHK: Conditions mean work. What work do you have to do to gain salvation?

HP: Start a thread on this issue and I will try my best to discuss it with you.

DHK: Do you carry a cross? Do you make a pilgrimmage? Do you whip yourself?

HP: In fact I do carry a cross, the one God told me to. “Take up your cross daily and follow me.” Do you carry a cross DHK?

DHK: What are the works required for salvation; the conditions that you are imposing upon yourself. Please list them. For the Lord has said there are none. It is a gift; unconditional.

HP: As I have stated hundreds if not thousands of times, they are initially repentance and faith.

 

[DHK]

HP: Initially repentance and faith.

These aren't conditions. That has been explained to you.

HP: In fact I do carry a cross, the one God told me to. “Take up your cross daily and follow me.” Do you carry a cross DHK?

Really? What is your cross? What is the meaning of the cross that Jesus told his disciples to bear?

HP: As I have stated hundreds if not thousands of times, they are initially repentance and faith.

Try harder. These are not works. Check out Eph.2:8,9 and Rom.11:6.
It is apparent that you have no understanding of these Scriptures if you keep on insisting that these are works.

 

[annsni]

HP - What does the "nature" in Ephesians 2:3 mean?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: These aren't conditions. That has been explained to you.

HP: Tell us why faith and repentance are not conditions DHK.

 

[DHK]

HP: Tell us why faith and repentance are not conditions DHK.

I did. I used the same illustration as Jesus did. You must be as little children.
I can give my two year old a gift. He will gladly accept that gift by faith. The faith is not a work. Why would you consider the faith of a child work. That is why Jesus said you must have "faith" as a child. It is the one thing that is not a work.
It is not a condition because it is not a work.
Salvation is a gift, unconditional. A gift has no conditions.
Both Eph.2:8,9 and Romans 6:23 tell us that salvation is a gift.
If it is a gift there are no conditions. This isn't rocket science; but rather very simple concepts, so easy a child can understand them. You don't need a textbook here.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: What does the "nature" in Ephesians 2:3 mean?

HP: That is a verse for a different thread, but I will give you a short answer. It says nothing about a sinful nature from birth, nor does it mention original sin. Nor does it say babies are born sinful, nor does it insinuate that the word ‘children’ has anything directly related to an actual age. That is enough said on that verse for this thread from me. We are suppose to limit our conversation as much as we possibly can to Psalms 51:5 on this thread.