Pub Night Fellowship

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ya know, to me the term "Fellowship" is an over used term in our churches today. Im going to a church where they often serve food after the service & Ive gone to churches where they do a lunch service each week. I dont see how food is the social lubricant & personally, if I was stimulated by it, would it not be considered border line gluttony?

With that said, I have European friends who often take time to meet together in local pubs on scheduled times to converse & get together. Honestly I perfer that & while there are lots of those in the church dead said against it, the pub environment is a splendid way to have Christian fellowship.

Now I am not closing my eyes to the fact that liqueur being served could be a problem so I asked my dear wife (a recovering alcoholic) her thoughts on the matter. She sees pub night fellowship like I do however her cautionary statement that " some dont choose that path" meaning taking a drink while others are indulging, is the proper key to the whole balance issue. It is her contention that the pub environment is a favorable place for conversation, debate & socializing.....when properly managed. Again "Choice" is the key element here.....if a person knowingly cannot control themselves then stay away from that environment .....but do not let it obstruct others from a positive opportunity to socialize, have fellowship & discuss Christ.

Your thoughts?

 

[BobRyan]

James 4:1-7 comes to mind.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

James 4:1-7 comes to mind.

How so?:smilewinkgrin: Exegete that for me

 

[BobRyan]

How so?:smilewinkgrin: Exegete that for me

well here is the text.

James 4
What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

5 Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: “He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us”? 6 But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” 7Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom.10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you


1John 2
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

I have been to sports bars a number of times in America as a "necessary evil" - just there for basic salad and the usual lemon water etc during a lunch break etc

It is something to be endured while eating - not the sort of place where Christian fellowship is being promoted. Perhaps the Pub's you are going to are better designed for Bible study while dining.


Bob

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

well here is the text.

James 4
What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

5 Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: “He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us”? 6 But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” 7Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom.10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you


1John 2
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

I have been to sports bars a number of times in America as a "necessary evil" - just there for basic salad and the usual lemon water etc during a lunch break etc

It is something to be endured while eating - not the sort of place where Christian fellowship is being promoted. Perhaps the Pub's you are going to are better designed for Bible study while dining.


Bob

If you feel that way, you wouldn't even have gatherings at restaurants.

but I believe you are unduly biased against the serving of alcohol not the environment. As I said before, its your choice & nobody's twisting your arm. Others like the environment (as I certainly do) and prefer it to a church basement & potlucks which personally I cant stand. Noodle salads & casseroles are hard to endure from my prospective.

 

[just-want-peace]

My question would be: Is this a restaurant that serves alcohol, or a bar that serves food?
I make this distinction simply because in my area MOST restaurants (primarily serving food) do serve ALCOHOL, but there are a few places that seem to be PRIMARILY focused on the alcohol as the primary product, and just have food as an accessory.
Still, whatever the choice, it's between the individual and God as to the "morality" of it.
I won't condemn you for patronizing the bars/pubs, so long as you don't choose to accuse me of being a Pharisee by choosing not to go there.
Both of us will have to answer to HIM for our respective choices in this, as well as scads more decisions through our life.:wavey:

 

[JonC]

I have to admit that it would bother me to drive by a pub and witness my pastor having a beer. But this is more of the culture in which I was raised than a biblical mandate against the consumption of alcohol. Knowing several who have problems with drinking, the social problems associated with drinking, and the attitude of many within my community, I can see an argument against the practice. At the same time, however, it does seem that determining whether an establishment is a bar that serves food or a restaurant that serves alcohol before entering is leaning towards legalism. I understand the concern regarding our image and witness - but still I believe we should be more concerned about people. I can see both sides of the issue, and believe that both have support for their argument. I know that some believe having a beer will hurt our testimony, but I also know that insisting abstinence towards who do not hold that view damages our testimony. For me, it is a matter of conscience and between the believer and God. I do wonder how much of the drinking debate is cultural (I do not recall it being an issue within the church when I lived outside of the US).

 

[BobRyan]

I have to admit that it would bother me to drive by a pub and witness my pastor having a beer. But this is more of the culture in which I was raised than a biblical mandate .

Alcohol is an addictive drug and it goes directly to the nervous system at the same time it damages the liver which is tasked with removing the poison from the system. It is designed to create an anesthesia effect. It is "at best" recreational anesthesia and at worst drug abuse.

So the question is whether the Bible in 1Cor 3 and 1Cor 6 condemns destroying the body with drugs.

Or whether the Bible injunction against alcohol is to be taken seriously.

If the argument is that Bible study requires a foggy somewhat-anesthetized brain to fully appreciate - then I would argue that 1 John 2 and James 4 - apply as a "corrective" idea to that assumption.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[JonC]

Alcohol is an addictive drug and it goes directly to the nervous system at the same time it damages the liver which is tasked with removing the poison from the system. It is designed to create an anesthesia effect. It is "at best" recreational anesthesia and at worst drug abuse.

Yes, I know the physical problems associated with excessive alcohol consumption. I am familiar with the argument that these problems are similar to those associated with excessive use of caffeine (actually, caffeine has similar potential health concerns on our culture given the amount of the stimulant consumed). IMHO it is better to avoid alcohol consumption, but insofar as health concerns I suppose one must weigh the benefits with the risks (the 1 beer/glass of wine argument). I would not have a health concern should I choose to drink a glass of wine offered at a meal.

So the question is whether the Bible in 1Cor 3 and 1Cor 6 condemns destroying the body with drugs.

Or whether the Bible injunction against alcohol is to be taken seriously.

If the argument is that Bible study requires a foggy somewhat-anesthetized brain to fully appreciate - then I would argue that 1 John 2 and James 4 - apply as a "corrective" idea to that assumption.

Exactly. The person who is concerned with this issue should ask themselves if having a drink conflicts with these, and other, passages. I understand your argument and disagree with your conclusions. I do not drink because I know that it is a social problem and I do not want to negatively influence my son, or anyone else. But I do not find support that appropriate wine (in the Bible) was void of alcohol. I do find warnings about alcohol and drunkenness, but not a command to abstinence. I also know that we can argue the points and never come to a mutual agreement. We both know the opposing view, and I am sure that you considered those arguments just as I have considered yours. If you change your mind and have a beer, it is a matter of conscience. For me, I'll decline, as a matter of conscience.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My question would be: Is this a restaurant that serves alcohol, or a bar that serves food?
I make this distinction simply because in my area MOST restaurants (primarily serving food) do serve ALCOHOL, but there are a few places that seem to be PRIMARILY focused on the alcohol as the primary product, and just have food as an accessory.
Still, whatever the choice, it's between the individual and God as to the "morality" of it.
I won't condemn you for patronizing the bars/pubs, so long as you don't choose to accuse me of being a Pharisee by choosing not to go there.
Both of us will have to answer to HIM for our respective choices in this, as well as scads more decisions through our life.:wavey:

And let me just say that church doesn't do it for me regarding fellowship......Ive tried many times but I am not comfortable making friends there....its too pious, too rigid too stodgy & maybe it should be (more for worship, prayer & quite time with the lord).

When I go out for a meal & a brew with others, I can let my guard down just a bit, enjoy some time away from it all, relax & even have some laughs. Cant see myself ever doing that in a church environment. I like the clanging of beer bottles & a nice Guinness with my meal. Then Im much more apt to be myself, chat & have conversation.

As I said...it is a choice you make. I personally like a beer now and again but the mrs's cant drink alcohol because of her addiction to it...still we both would prefer to have fellowship at nice corner pubs vs stuffy churches. Its a choice w/o judgment.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here is a church in New Mexico that hosts a pub night. See attached.

http://www.crossroadsabq.com/pubnight

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now here is an interesting read! Personally wouldnt go that far, meaning conducting services but ...... :smilewinkgrin:

"I tell 'em, it's a church service," says bartender Les Bennett, "And they're, like, 'In a pub?' And I'm, like, yeah. Some of 'em stick around for trivia, some of 'em take off, some of 'em will hang out and have another pint or two."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/20...ecline-churches-attract-new-members-with-beer

 

[Gib]

Now here is an interesting read! Personally wouldnt go that far, meaning conducting services but
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/20...ecline-churches-attract-new-members-with-beer

I had to look at this twice to make sure your source was the Onion News.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I had to look at this twice to make sure your source was the Onion News.

Nope.....NPR, maybe worse. Its kinda like all these churches with the battle cry, "Feed them & they will come" :laugh: Attracts allot of gluttons & freeloaders I'm told. So why not bring in the drunks? Arent they in need of salvation?!?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Alcohol is an addictive drug and it goes directly to the nervous system at the same time it damages the liver which is tasked with removing the poison from the system. It is designed to create an anesthesia effect. It is "at best" recreational anesthesia and at worst drug abuse.

Yes, I know the physical problems associated with excessive alcohol consumption. I am familiar with the argument that these problems are similar to those associated with excessive use of caffeine (actually, caffeine has similar potential health concerns on our culture given the amount of the stimulant consumed). IMHO it is better to avoid alcohol consumption, but insofar as health concerns I suppose one must weigh the benefits with the risks (the 1 beer/glass of wine argument). I would not have a health concern should I choose to drink a glass of wine offered at a meal.

Arguably any illegal drug known to mankind -- if taken in small enough doses - could be claimed "better than caffeine". I certainly do not recommend that any partake of caffeine.

But it is beyond dispute that alcohol as well as the rest are addictive drugs, is a form of poison to the body and does not improve the minds ability to contemplate Bible topics.

It is pure compromise with the things of this world and an argument that if you make it small enough - maybe you won't get hurt too much no matter if those who join you - do.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

So the question is whether the Bible in 1Cor 3 and 1Cor 6 condemns destroying the body with drugs.

Or whether the Bible injunction against alcohol is to be taken seriously.

If the argument is that Bible study requires a foggy somewhat-anesthetized brain to fully appreciate - then I would argue that 1 John 2 and James 4 - apply as a "corrective" idea to that assumption.

Exactly. The person who is concerned with this issue should ask themselves if having a drink conflicts with these, and other, passages. I understand your argument and disagree with your conclusions. I do not drink because I know that it is a social problem and I do not want to negatively influence my son, or anyone else. But I do not find support that appropriate wine (in the Bible) was void of alcohol.

There are a number of words for "wine" in the Bible and the most common one is similar to our word "beverage" or specifically "grape beverage". Whether it is drug laced with alcohol or not depends on the context.

I do find warnings about alcohol and drunkenness, but not a command to abstinence.

Though we may differ on the subject - I think it is hard to argue that these abstinence texts do not exist.


1) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.
2) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.
3) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

5) Proverbs 23:29-30 - Drinking causes woe, sorrow, fighting, babbling, wounds without cause and red eyes.
6) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.
7) Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.
8) Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.
9) Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable
10) Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.
11) Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.
12) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.
13) Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.
14) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.
15) Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking.


16) Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.
17) Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.
18) Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.


19) Romans 14:21 - Do not do anything that will hurt your testimony as a believer.
20) 1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.


21) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.
22) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.
23) 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.
24) Titus 1:7-8 - An overseer is to be disciplined.
25) Titus 2:2-3 - The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

One thing I am sure we do agree on is that a man "cannot serve two master" and we agree on these texts -


James 4
What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

5 Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: “He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us”? 6 But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” 7Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom.10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you


1John 2
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

 

[JonC]

Though we may differ on the subject - I think it is hard to argue that these abstinence texts do not exist.

Yes, we differ on the subject. The verses that you provide do offer a warning concerning intoxicating beverages. You offer passages that restrict elders from being “given to wine,” which may imply that drinking wine is not necessarily forbidden to the believer.

I’m not going down all of the passages because the issue remains the same. But there are two examples of where I believe you take liberty with Scripture to make a passage command abstinence. I am using the first two I looked up from what you have provided as your interpretation.

Habakkuk 2:15 (BobRyan)
“Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.”

Habakkuk 2:15 (NASB)

15 "Woe to you who make your neighbors drink, who mix in your venom even to make them drunk so as to look on their nakedness!

Habakkuk 2:15 (KJV)
15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Habakkuk 2:15 (NIV)
15 "Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies.

Habakkuk 2:15 (HCSB)
15 Woe to him who gives his neighbors drink, pouring out your wrath and even making them drunk, in order to look at their nakedness!



1 Corinthians 5:11 (BobRyan)
“If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.”

1 Corinthians 5:11 (NASB)

11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

1 Corinthians 5:11 (KJV)
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1 Corinthians 5:11 (NIV)
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

1 Corinthians 5:11 (HCSB)
11 But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer who is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or verbally abusive, a drunkard or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person.

I don’t think that we differ regarding the dangers of alcohol, but we do insofar as abstinence being an unquestionable biblical command for the believer. We also differ in interpretation and in theology (how you are putting this doctrine together). I am not interested in debating the issue of drinking with you, but perhaps you would like to begin a thread to explore the interpretation of one of those passages. As for me, I am reaching for a nice beverage... a cup of tea. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, we differ on the subject. The verses that you provide do offer a warning concerning intoxicating beverages. You offer passages that restrict elders from being “given to wine,” which may imply that drinking wine is not necessarily forbidden to the believer.

1. I Phil 3 and in 1Thess 1 the leaders in the church are models that are to be followed by other church members.

Phil 3
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:



2. I am not convinced that all of these texts are directed towards elders alone. (And I have tried to limit them to cases that are not just about drunkards).



1) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.
2) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.
3) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

5) Proverbs 23:29-30 - Drinking causes woe, sorrow, fighting, babbling, wounds without cause and red eyes.
6) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.
7) Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.
8) Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.
9) Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable
10) Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.
11) Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.
12) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.
13) Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.
14) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.
15) Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking.


16) Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.


19) Romans 14:21 - Do not do anything that will hurt your testimony as a believer.


21) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.
22) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.
23) 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.
24) Titus 1:7-8 - An overseer is to be disciplined.
25) Titus 2:2-3 - The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

I’m not going down all of the passages because the issue remains the same. But there are two examples of where I believe you take liberty with Scripture to make a passage command abstinence. I am using the first two I looked up from what you have provided as your interpretation.

Habakkuk 2:15 (BobRyan)
“Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.”

Habakkuk 2:15 (NASB)

15 "Woe to you who make your neighbors drink, who mix in your venom even to make them drunk so as to look on their nakedness!

Habakkuk 2:15 (KJV)
15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Habakkuk 2:15 (NIV)
15 "Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies.

Habakkuk 2:15 (HCSB)
15 Woe to him who gives his neighbors drink, pouring out your wrath and even making them drunk, in order to look at their nakedness!



1 Corinthians 5:11 (BobRyan)
“If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.”

1 Corinthians 5:11 (NASB)

11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

1 Corinthians 5:11 (KJV)
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1 Corinthians 5:11 (NIV)
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

1 Corinthians 5:11 (HCSB)
11 But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer who is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or verbally abusive, a drunkard or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person.

I agree these texts do appear to deal with a drunkard -- so I am removing them from the list. I had a list of 75 initially and was trying to avoid the ones that speak of the drunkard. Clearly I missed these two.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Bro. James]

Eve should have fled Satan when she had the opportunity. She became beguiled by the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Adam was not beguiled; he sinned willfully and then tried to blame God for having given him a mate.

"cast not the pearls before the swine"..........they will trample them.

There may be some witness opportunity by giving rides to those who have been unfaithful being designated drivers.

Having lived with alcoholics and recovering alcoholics, IMO, taking one to such a temptation for Christian fellowship violates all the rules of recovery.
It probably also violates "abstain from all appearance of evil".

"lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[JonC]

1. I Phil 3 and in 1Thess 1 the leaders in the church are models that are to be followed by other church members.

in Christ,

Bob

It seems that this issue is not due to Scripture, but to do the conclusions we arrive at by reasoning out those passages. There are no “thou shalt not drink” passages, and I am afraid that both sides take liberty with the biblical text to support a position. Ironically, the passages that you provide advocating a certain group not drink can (and have) been used to support both positions. Romans 14:21 has also been used by both positions as well. That is why I believe it ultimately a matter of conscience (I place this issue under Christian liberty). Personally, I do not think that the dangers of alcohol consumption are unknown even to the drunkard. I don’t know why anyone would want to subject themselves to these potential dangers. There is also the problem of supporting what is a social ill (the same could be said about the lottery). But taking a legalistic approach towards abstinence (particularly when we are talking of the believer’s testimony in evangelism), IMHO, has a great danger of damaging the testimony of the believer.

I am not speaking of the believer abstaining (I believe this would be the better position), but of taking a legalistic stance towards drinking. If I abstain from drinking then my witness is valid to those who drink and those who do not. But when I take the approach that Scripture condemns drinking (not drunkenness or providing warnings against wine), then I am at least approaching legalism because I cannot show a passage that actually does so without incorporating an extra-biblical reasoning. The approach, in my view, has done damage to the church’s credibility. This is not the same with other issues (theft, lying, sexual-sins, etc) which are explicitly condemned in Scripture. You appear to be a reasonable man, and I am confident that you understand my concern here (although I know we disagree). I do understand that we agree in practice (abstinence) but disagree in terms of this being a biblical command.