Bob Ryan replied, where I replied to your last:
Originally posted by BobRyan:
#1. I did not see anything about "non-time in purgatory" in John 20:22-23.
And I replied:
No, but you do see the basis of Jesus giving the power to a priest to forgive or retain sins!
I mentioned this because in the early church, a penance imposed by a priest was often specified in days of accomplishment, for example, "Go and give a special contribution to the poor for the next 100 days" or "abstain from relations with your wife for 60 days" (not imposed recently in modern times!)
And he replied:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
"If we confess our sins HE is faithful and just to FORGIVE US our sins AND to cleanse US from ALL unrighteousness" 1John 1:9
"Our Father who is in Heaven... FORGIVE US OUR sins..." Matt 6:12.
Of course!
We Catholics call this "making an act of contrition" to God for forgiveness! I do this immediately if I were to suddenly sin, say like taking the Lord's name in vain in sudden anger or similar sin. But you have yet to analyze for me, John 20:22-23! Put on your best "SdA" hat, and exegete that for me.
"Let Us come BOLDLY before the throne of Grace" due to the ministry of our ONE High Priest - Heb 4:14-16.
Direct and immediate forgiveness of sins is the only model that scripture gives. Never do we see any Christian going to a single NT saint and saying "please ask God to forgive me - because you are my best and only source of forgiveness"
Rather Christ declared that "IN HIS NAME" forgiveness of sins was to be "proclaimed" and that this was the "mission" of His followers - to proclaim that message (Luke 24:47)
This leaves no room for reworking the text of John 20 to mean "you need to go to someone other than Christ for forgiveness of sins".
Again, do a very careful study of John 20:22-23 and give my your best exegesis of those verses. As you do this, you may want to consider the immediate context of what Jesus says when He immediately appeared to the apostles, through a locked door, to say this to them.
I totally and completely disagree with your assertion that you see the "only model that scripture gives" when John 20:22-23 is staring you right in the face! And you have yet to see one thing from me about that scripture as I have yet to give you my exegesis! I want to see yours first!
[qiuote]
And none of this speaks to going to someone else - to get forgiveness for a dead ancestor's sins.</font>[/QUOTE]When time permits, I will show how this is implied in the scripture quotes I provided earlier on this.
Bob previously said:
#2. I did not see any mention at all of a "place that is not heaven and not hell" where the saints go to suffer for their sins after death in ANY of the texts mentioned in the posts above.
What am I missing? Do you simply "make it up"?
And I previously provided these quotes from scripture:
Purgatory
The Bible commends the practice of praying for the dead.
2 Maccabees 12:46 "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought
to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins."
#1. That is not scripture.
Which is why I put is separate from the others. But for 1500 years of Church history, 2 Maccabees was considered scripture, since it came from the Greek
Septuagint which the early Christians favored. And which was declared as scripture by at least 3 church synods in the later 3rd century.
It was only in the time of the so called "Protestant Reformation" that the
deuterocanonicals were removed by the Protestants.
By what authority did they have to do that, Bob?
#2. It says nothing about the dead suffering while dead.
Did you see my comments about a "spiritual prison" in the quotes I gave? Perhaps later, when you cover that quote…
#3. The people being prayed for are guilty of mortal sin AND the text SAYS that the "reason" they are dead is a direct judgment of God on their mortal sin of idolatry - so EVEN the RCC would not admit them into Purgatory.
Hummmm, the Maccabees quote? Yes, the amulets honoring idols they were wearing on their uniforms. But then, how involved were they in the worship of idols when it may have been a uniform requirement to wear them? Also, even while they may have all been condemned to hell, where prayers for them would not be effective, we do not know that, do we? In other words, they give the dead the benefit of the doubt and are prayed for nevertheless. Are the prayers wasted? No, I think God sees the merit in our being concerned for others, even if they are dead.
#4. That chapter ALSO says that the ONLY benefit of that prayer was with respect to the resurrection and that WITHOUT that resurrection event - the prayer was not doing anything - it was meaningless.
How do you know that, Bob? I pray for the repose of the soul of my deceased father. If he is in heaven, then the benefits of those prayers can go to those in need of them, but if he is in hell, again, the prayers would benefit others not in hell, but still in purgatory. In fact, that is the way I couch my prayers - to benefit others if it will not benefit the principle subject of my prayers.
And "this" from a non-inspired writer - who sees clearly that there is no "benefit" from the prayer while the person is dead.
If you are speaking of 2 Maccabees again, the only Church around with authority has declared the author to have been divinely inspired. And that was believed for the first 1500 years of the Church's existence.
Realizing that you do not accept the deuterocanonicals as OT canon, if there is no further purging after death, why pray for ones who are either in heaven, where no prayers are necessary, or in hell, where such prayers would do no good?
#1 Chapter 12 explicitly says the prayer was worthless for that point - it says that ONLY in the event of the resurrection of the dead - could that prayer have any value at all.
Chapter 12 where? 2 Maccabees? Do you mind quoting the verse(s) I do see the following verse:
"for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death." (verse 44) Indeed so! But if you go on and read "But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought." (verse 45)
Therefore Judas here believed in a forgiveness of sins after death!
A point about that text that the RC position is not comfortable with.
Not to this Catholic! And I have certainly not heard of an "uncomfortable" view of this chapter at all, ever!
I previously said:
The following passages indicate the existence of purgatory.
Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son
of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak
against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in
this world, nor in the world to come."
The implication is, there are sins that can indeed be forgiven "in the world to come."
What you "needed" was a text that said "If someone commits THIS kind of sin it will NOT be forgiven him in THIS world but WILL be forgiven in the world to come".
That does not make sense at all, because if the sin is forgiven in this world, logic says that it is not necessary for a forgiveness be granted to it in the spiritual world, it already being forgiven! If I am in the "State of Grace" and I have no sin on my soul, including the restitution/penance needed for restitution for the sins forgiven, I go straight to heaven when I die! Reminds me of the old Monopoly Game: "Go past purgatory and go straight to heaven!"
You "also needed" a text that said "The world to come happens BEFORE the resurrection of the righteous".
You don't believe in the particular judgment, do you, Bob?
Where did the good thief go when Christ said, "On this day, you will be with me in paradise."? The day after the "on this day," Christ was still in the tomb. The 3rd day, He rose from the dead. Where was the good thief them?
You have none of that - although that would address the salient point of your argument - that critical section that needs to be "proved" rather than "assumed".
I am assuming nothing. But logic tells me that if a sin is pointed out to be so serious as not to be forgivable in the world to come, there must be lesser sins that can be forgiven even them.
Did I ever tell you about 1 John 5:16-17 where the two types of sins are discussed? Sins that are "deadly" and not forgiven here on earth, certainly will not be forgiven in the spiritual realm, will they? What about the sins we may die with that are not "deadly"?
Luke 12:58-60 "And when thou goest with thy adversary to the prince,
whilst thou art in the way, endeavour to be delivered from him: lest he
draw thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the exacter, and the
exacter cast thee into prison. I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence,
until thou pay the very last mite."
Jesus compares an earthly prison with a spiritual prison, where one goes "until thou pay the very last mite."
#1. Nothing about that future prison - indicates that it is NOT the punishment of the wicked described in Rev 20, in Rev 21, in Rev 14:10, in Matt 10:28
Then what prison is Christ speaking of? Christ always relates events here on earth, such as going to an earthly prison, to some sort of a parallel in the spiritual life. Also, do me a favor and exegete the quotes you give in regards to the "prison" I am speaking of.
What you "needed" was a "punishment of the saints" text stating that the saints are "punished in prison after they die - and then they go to heaven".
No such text in all of scripture.
I tell you what, Bob, read the Luke quote above again, and you tell me what it is talking about. What is the "prison" Jesus is talking about here.
I last said:
1 Corinthians 3:13-15 "Every man's work shall be manifest; for
the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be
revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of
what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built
thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he
shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by
fire."
Where is this "loss" suffered? Not in heaven, as that is the place of complete joy! Not in hell, as once you are there, one cannot "be saved."
#1. The "Day of the Lord" is not a reference to the period between death and resurrection in all of scripture.
What is the "day of the Lord" for an individual man, Bob? He speaks of "every man," thus it is something exclusive to him, don't you think?
#2. The text never says that the PERSON is tried in fire or burned in fire.
No, it is his WORKS that are tried and "revealed in fire." But who "suffers loss" here, Bob? Also, if his works "abide" "he shall receive a reward" So for all intents and purposes, it results in the man Christ speaks of that is tried.
(Continued in next post)
THER foundation can be laid" by any teacher. It then goes on to describe the TEACHING of the various evangelists as their work - and shows that it is their TEACHING that is tried and burned acccording to its "value".