Y
Yelsew
Guest
I asked this before, but don't see a reply.
Could someone please provide me with the requested information?
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Purgatory Or The Judgment Seat of Christ?
- Thread starter Ray Berrian
- Start date
Yelsew:
Duoay Rheims
2 Maccabees 12:1-47
You can start with the need to pray for the dead.
God Bless
http://unbound.biola.edu/
Duoay Rheims
2 Maccabees 12:1-47
You can start with the need to pray for the dead.
God Bless
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The word purgatory is not in the Bible NOR is it in the book of Maccabees.
The reference to 2Macc 12 finds no mention of indulgences, or "souls suffering after death" or even any mention of anyone BEING dead that the RCC would say "was in Purgatory".
Why - because Idolatry is considered by the RCC to be "a mortal sin". All the dead in 2Macc 12 died while practicing idol worship and that is the very sin for which the offering is made - and for which the RCC claims NO soul would qualify for Purgatory NOR would any indulgence (if it had been mentioned in 2Macc 12) apply in that case.
So having nothing to appeal to - the RCC appeals to 2Macc12 "anyway".
In Christ,
Bob
The reference to 2Macc 12 finds no mention of indulgences, or "souls suffering after death" or even any mention of anyone BEING dead that the RCC would say "was in Purgatory".
Why - because Idolatry is considered by the RCC to be "a mortal sin". All the dead in 2Macc 12 died while practicing idol worship and that is the very sin for which the offering is made - and for which the RCC claims NO soul would qualify for Purgatory NOR would any indulgence (if it had been mentioned in 2Macc 12) apply in that case.
So having nothing to appeal to - the RCC appeals to 2Macc12 "anyway".
In Christ,
Bob
GraceSaves
New Member
Bob,
Mortal sin requires that the person who committed the grave sin had full knowledge and consent of will to do so, was not acting under undue pressure, but out of desire to make the act. Being a grave act itself does not constitute a mortal sin.
God bless,
Grant
Mortal sin requires that the person who committed the grave sin had full knowledge and consent of will to do so, was not acting under undue pressure, but out of desire to make the act. Being a grave act itself does not constitute a mortal sin.
God bless,
Grant
OK, so at the end, we all agree that we will be judged by Our Lord before going to heaven?
Now, if we are going to be judged by Our Lord, and let's say that the judgement will take 2 seconds. In those two seconds, are we going to be in heaven or in hell?
In those 2 seconds, how are we suppose to feel when we see our life in retrospective and realized the good and the bad things we did and didn't do?
Thanks
Armando
Now, if we are going to be judged by Our Lord, and let's say that the judgement will take 2 seconds. In those two seconds, are we going to be in heaven or in hell?
In those 2 seconds, how are we suppose to feel when we see our life in retrospective and realized the good and the bad things we did and didn't do?
Thanks
Armando
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Because one man believed it you think the whole of jewish belief practiced it? Remember in I Mac it is described that many occultic practices were introduced among the Israelites. With 15 years to mature, prior to the events of II Mac 12, such a belief that one should pray for the dead could easily have become widely "acceptable" among the Jews.
Is there evidence that such was widely practiced among the Jews?
Is this the only place in Jewish literature where
it occurs?
Is there prophetic guidance for it to happen?
If not, then I would suggest that this isolated event bears no divine authority to support it.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Do you think that having someone praying for the remission of your sins is going to change the condition of your faith? it is after all is said and done, that Faith is the means of salvation, the difference between Heaven and hell.
neal4christ
New Member
That is not a good basis for an argument. I don't agree with purgatory, but I wouldn't start from this point to argue against it. There are other things that we hold to that we give names to that are not found in the Bible.
Neal
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Actually - it was the entire "list" that I gave - not just the fact that there is no mention of Purgatory (either in word or in doctrine) in all of scripture OR in the book of Maccabees.
The Trinity has at least "The Name of the Father, the Name of the Son and the Name of the Holy Spirit" identifying the THREE.
But Purgatory does NOT have "suffering in non-hell after Death, Indulgences to free the dead who are suffering, the Dead who have NOT committed mortal sin SUFFERING after death" or ANYTHING about a spiritual bank of suffering applied to the account of the dead who have not committed mortal sin.
ALL of the key points UNIQUE to purgatory - are missing.
That was the point that was made - and it remains.
In Christ,
Bob
The Trinity has at least "The Name of the Father, the Name of the Son and the Name of the Holy Spirit" identifying the THREE.
But Purgatory does NOT have "suffering in non-hell after Death, Indulgences to free the dead who are suffering, the Dead who have NOT committed mortal sin SUFFERING after death" or ANYTHING about a spiritual bank of suffering applied to the account of the dead who have not committed mortal sin.
ALL of the key points UNIQUE to purgatory - are missing.
That was the point that was made - and it remains.
In Christ,
Bob
neal4christ
New Member
Bob, I see your point and even agree with it. My point was that personally I wouldn't bring up the fact that the word 'purgatory' is not in Scripture. That is all.
Not trying to ruffle your feathers. 
Neal
Neal
Glen Seeker
New Member
Bob,
Anytime one turns away from God, however slightly, that in itself hampers the flow of His graces into ones life. Now, if a person completely rejects God and abandons all that comes from Him, that person is cut off from the "family" of God and is lost in his own perdition. That's my view on venial and mortal sin.
I don't believe that the soldiers in 2Macc. turned away from or abandoned God completely, they just wanted a little help from another 'god' if that god had any power at all.
Sort of like the foxhole atheist who says, "Oh God, if there is a God. Save my soul if I have a soul."
The soldiers in 2Macc. were wearing amulets under their armor. I know that this offense was thought of as grave in the time of Judah however, I am not aware that the wearing of an amulet is considered a mortal sin in the Catholic Church. Murder...yep, that's a biggie. Lucky charms? Don't think so.
Anytime one turns away from God, however slightly, that in itself hampers the flow of His graces into ones life. Now, if a person completely rejects God and abandons all that comes from Him, that person is cut off from the "family" of God and is lost in his own perdition. That's my view on venial and mortal sin.
I don't believe that the soldiers in 2Macc. turned away from or abandoned God completely, they just wanted a little help from another 'god' if that god had any power at all.
Sort of like the foxhole atheist who says, "Oh God, if there is a God. Save my soul if I have a soul."
trying2understand
New Member
That the word purgatory is not in the Bible should not be a reason to reject the doctrine.
After all the word Trinity is not in the Bible either. Do you also reject the doctrine of the Trinity for that reason?
Y
Yelsew
Guest
That the word purgatory is not in the Bible should not be a reason to reject the doctrine.
After all the word Trinity is not in the Bible either. Do you also reject the doctrine of the Trinity for that reason? </font>[/QUOTE]Can you reject God the Father's presence, and The Holy Spirits presence at the Baptism of Jesus? All three known personages of Holy God manifested at the same time in the same place before eye-(ear)-witnesses.
Show us where, in scriptures, that purgatory is presented in a similar manner, for all to see.
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Show us where, in scriptures, that purgatory is presented in a similar manner, for all to see.
St. Paul tells us of the man who "will be saved, but only as through fire" and such a man "will suffer loss" (1 Cor 3:15).
Catholics just put a name to what St. Paul is describing. We call it "Purgatory". We could call it "Perelandra", and that would work. Or, we could call it "Venus" or "Pookey" or we could have selected from a seemingly infinite list of names.
Irregardless of what we call it, the process of being saved as by fire, suffering loss started with St. Paul, not the Catholic Church.
St. Paul tells us of the man who "will be saved, but only as through fire" and such a man "will suffer loss" (1 Cor 3:15).
Catholics just put a name to what St. Paul is describing. We call it "Purgatory". We could call it "Perelandra", and that would work. Or, we could call it "Venus" or "Pookey" or we could have selected from a seemingly infinite list of names.
Irregardless of what we call it, the process of being saved as by fire, suffering loss started with St. Paul, not the Catholic Church.
This is not just Jewish literature. It is part of the word of God. “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;” 2 Timothy 3:16 The Protestants took out the 7 books from the Old Testament at the Protestant Reformation.
God Bless
1 Cor 3:11 is speaking of the foundation of our faith.
Building upon that will require a fiery furnace (judgement) to reveal the faults.
Works are tried, judged and found either worthy or unworthy.
Salvation is still based on faith.....the trying of our faith works patience.
It's the faulty foundations that will not support reward.
Faith is ALWAYS rewarded with grace.
"Whosoever believes in ME shall never die"
Vs 15 does not refer to salvation BY fire . It is speaking of works being
burned. The final result is that the man is still saved as vs 15 reveals.
He suffers loss of rewards; not loss of salvation.
God is not in the business of giving and taking back.
Jesus came that "all men might be saved".
He didn't come to steal salvation from men.
Building upon that will require a fiery furnace (judgement) to reveal the faults.
Works are tried, judged and found either worthy or unworthy.
Salvation is still based on faith.....the trying of our faith works patience.
It's the faulty foundations that will not support reward.
Faith is ALWAYS rewarded with grace.
"Whosoever believes in ME shall never die"
Vs 15 does not refer to salvation BY fire . It is speaking of works being
burned. The final result is that the man is still saved as vs 15 reveals.
He suffers loss of rewards; not loss of salvation.
God is not in the business of giving and taking back.
Jesus came that "all men might be saved".
He didn't come to steal salvation from men.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
You are entirely correct Singer, but let me give an illustration to Carson. My sister's family, with 4 small children, one a month old infant, the others approximately 12 months apart, suffered a devastating fire that took their home; a wood frame, wood siding, wood floor, wood roof structure. Their garage was attached to the house and their car was in the garage. The fire occured at night, starting in the room adjacent to the garage. The family had been in bed for about an hour, but managed to escape from the house with their lives, dressed in night clothes. That is all that survived the fire, everthing else was lost. The family was devastated! That is the illustration provided in scripture for the judgement of works. The person is not tested 'in' fire, but 'by' fire. My sister's family survived, as if from fire, but had to start over with nothing. Their investment in a home and automobile went up in smoke and flame, leaving only ashes and significant indebtedness. The nearest fire department was 30 minutes away!Originally posted by Singer:
1 Cor 3:11 is speaking of the foundation of our faith.
Building upon that will require a fiery furnace (judgement) to reveal the faults.
Works are tried, judged and found either worthy or unworthy.
Salvation is still based on faith.....the trying of our faith works patience.
It's the faulty foundations that will not support reward.
Faith is ALWAYS rewarded with grace.
"Whosoever believes in ME shall never die"
Vs 15 does not refer to salvation BY fire . It is speaking of works being
burned. The final result is that the man is still saved as vs 15 reveals.
He suffers loss of rewards; not loss of salvation.
God is not in the business of giving and taking back.
Jesus came that "all men might be saved".
He didn't come to steal salvation from men.
Do you think that having someone praying for the remission of your sins is going to change the condition of your faith? it is after all is said and done, that Faith is the means of salvation, the difference between Heaven and hell. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, let's try again. Let's assume that I am saved by faith. Am I not going to be judged by Our Lord at the end of times? Or would I automatically be in heaven without being judged at all? If I being judged, during that period, would I be in heaven or hell?
Thanks