Puritanism

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do understand. I don't agree with you. I do not believe that salvation is coming to the realization that they have been justified . Belief is a condition of justification. It is not meritorious, but it is essential or else you will not be justified. Faith is not a work. It is set apart as opposed to works in scripture.

Belief is a condition of justification. Is it really? Is that the only condition or are there more that have to be reviewed in order to be justified? Then is justification a one time thing and associated with eternal salvation or does it have worldly reprocutions?

 

[DaveXR650]

Sorry but it is meritorious when you make it a condition for Justification before God, doesnt matter if you dont agree. Also you give ones act of believing more preeminence in the matter of Justification before God than the Blood of Christ, good luck with that in the day of Judgment.

God chose in his salvation of men to have faith be what links us to the benefits He has provided. Some compare it to a hand reaching out or to "closing with Christ". For two rational beings to have an interaction there must be - an interaction. Even the way you describe it there is this interaction. We believe the this interaction consists of the person coming to Christ by faith. That is explained in the Bible as something very specific and unique. Come unto to me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest - I believe it is a stretch to say there is merit in coming.

Now I think the way you believe on this will have an effect on how you might share the gospel or how a preacher might preach. But you and the hyper-Calvinists and the PB's are as near as I can tell relying on the blood of Christ and his imputed righteousness same as me which is why I considers all these groups Christian brothers.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

By you saying Christs death isnt Justification before God, to me is unbelief to what Christs death actually accomplished, just being honest with you friend

I compliment you And completely agree.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God chose in his salvation of men to have faith be what links us to the benefits He has provided. Some compare it to a hand reaching out or to "closing with Christ". For two rational beings to have an interaction there must be - an interaction. Even the way you describe it there is this interaction. We believe the this interaction consists of the person coming to Christ by faith. That is explained in the Bible as something very specific and unique. Come unto to me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest - I believe it is a stretch to say there is merit in coming.

Now I think the way you believe on this will have an effect on how you might share the gospel or how a preacher might preach. But you and the hyper-Calvinists and the PB's are as near as I can tell relying on the blood of Christ and his imputed righteousness same as me which is why I considers all these groups Christian brothers.

There you go…at least admit it that you are fearful that your mode of operation is being disrupted! What, no salvation via preaching the gospel ..heaven forbid!

 

[DaveXR650]

Belief is a condition of justification. Is it really? Is that the only condition or are there more that have to be reviewed in order to be justified? Then is justification a one time thing and associated with eternal salvation or does it have worldly reprocutions?

Yes. It really is a condition in the sense that without faith and until you come by faith you are not saved. And the Bible is very clear and repeatedly says that faith is unique in this. So much that we say you are saved by faith "alone" to make sure everyone understands the unique position faith occupies in our salvation.

It is a one time thing but when it happens changes occur so that other things will certainly follow. Humans are capable of looking back and evaluating those things that follow and examining ourselves to see whether we are in the faith. That is why verses such as that and verses like "If you love me keep my Commandments" have meaning to us. Because we can evaluate ourselves to see if we are doing so. If no changes occurred when you believed you can know that you do not really believe and have not been born again.

 

[DaveXR650]

There you go…at least admit it that you are fearful that your mode of operation is being disrupted! What, no salvation via preaching the gospel ..heaven forbid!

I don't understand what you are saying. I've always wanted to say this "Unpack that".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

By now you must note that your label of hyper Calvinist isn’t accurate… because we don’t operate like Calvinists. Nor do we emulate SBC, Missionary Baptists, Free Will Baptists, Presbyterians, Reformed types, Methodists etc.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't understand what you are saying. I've always wanted to say this "Unpack that".

Of course you don’t…. You’ve spent your life studying conventional theology, never Old School Theology. So figure it out for yourself… get stepping.

 

[DaveXR650]

Of course you don’t…. You’ve spent your life studying conventional theology, never Old School Theology. So figure it out for yourself… get stepping.

I don't have time right now. I have to get ready for church. If I don't show up the Puritans will probably hang me for forsaking the assembly our ourselves together.

 

[JonC]

Okay then, thats what Justified them before God, His death for them. Simple. Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Thats the object of Faith, Ones Justification by the Blood of Christ.

Isa 53:11
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

By you saying Christs death isnt Justification before God, to me is unbelief to what Christs death actually accomplished, just being honest with you friend

I appreciate your honesty. I wish more could be honest (and take honest criticism) without taking offense.

This is what Paul says in Romans (a letter written to Christians in Rome):

Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

We are justified by the blood of Christ (on that we agree).

Our disagreement is whether the lost who will believe are justified before they believe.

I think we are not justified until we are "in Christ".

 

[JonC]

Tell us then, what is Justification and is it eternal, temporal or does it have varied elements?

Justification is the state of either being made or being declared (depending on denomination) righteous.

I believe it is both (God declared us righteous because we are, in Christ, righteous....clothes in His righteousness).

Is it eternal? No, of course not. Nobody is by nature righteous. We are only righteous in Christ.

But it is everlasting.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't have time right now. I have to get ready for church. If I don't show up the Puritans will probably hang me for forsaking the assembly our ourselves together.

Here is a thought, go visit another church… perhaps a change in prospective would help your knowledge to expand. The Puritans will be appeased by a check.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Justification is the state of either being made or being declared (depending on denomination) righteous.

I believe it is both (God declared us righteous because we are, in Christ, righteous....clothes in His righteousness).

Is it eternal? No, of course not. Nobody is by nature righteous. We are only righteous in Christ.

But it is everlasting.

Then Christ can declare them that are righteous right out of the gate… but he did not come to this earth for the righteous, he came for the sinners. I believe we are all sinners, made righteous or otherwise.
Question: was the thief on the cross made righteous? Then how about… let’s see, Saul, David, Samson etc. how would you categorize them?

 

[Brightfame52]

God chose in his salvation of men to have faith be what links us to the benefits He has provided. Some compare it to a hand reaching out or to "closing with Christ". For two rational beings to have an interaction there must be - an interaction. Even the way you describe it there is this interaction. We believe the this interaction consists of the person coming to Christ by faith. That is explained in the Bible as something very specific and unique. Come unto to me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest - I believe it is a stretch to say there is merit in coming.

Now I think the way you believe on this will have an effect on how you might share the gospel or how a preacher might preach. But you and the hyper-Calvinists and the PB's are as near as I can tell relying on the blood of Christ and his imputed righteousness same as me which is why I considers all these groups Christian brothers.

I must be honest, you turn faith/believing into a meritorious work to gain Justification before God friend.

 

[Brightfame52]

jonc

We are justified by the blood of Christ (on that we agree).

I cant see us agreeing on that since you also said earlier

Yes. Christ died for the sins of man on the Cross. But Christ dying for our sins is not Justification.

 

[DaveXR650]

I must be honest, you turn faith/believing into a meritorious work to gain Justification before God friend.

I am aware that you believe that but you are wrong. A meritorious work would be something that would somehow put God at an obligation for a service rendered to justify us. Throwing yourself on His mercy or resting or relying upon Him solely for our salvation does not do that. But faith is required on our part. The Bible says so and it also carefully and repeatedly distinguishes that from works so you don't have a right to go beyond what the Bible says and declare it a work.

It's a slightly different subject but that's the reason I believe that faith is not a work even in the case of the Arminian or free will advocates. It is simply not a work, as a matter of definition. Now the more Calvinistic your theology, and the more you go on faith itself being a gift, and the more you lean towards an actual regeneration occurring before you believe the easier this concept is. But I'm saying to you that by any proper definition of what faith really is - it simply is not a work. Period.

 

[kyredneck]

If people believe men are justified before they are born then it's an opportunity to provide a biblical reference.

If you were to choose a single Bible reference that best unveils the Trinity, what would it be?

 

[Brightfame52]

I am aware that you believe that but you are wrong. A meritorious work would be something that would somehow put God at an obligation for a service rendered to justify us. Throwing yourself on His mercy or resting or relying upon Him solely for our salvation does not do that. But faith is required on our part. The Bible says so and it also carefully and repeatedly distinguishes that from works so you don't have a right to go beyond what the Bible says and declare it a work.

It's a slightly different subject but that's the reason I believe that faith is not a work even in the case of the Arminian or free will advocates. It is simply not a work, as a matter of definition. Now the more Calvinistic your theology, and the more you go on faith itself being a gift, and the more you lean towards an actual regeneration occurring before you believe the easier this concept is. But I'm saying to you that by any proper definition of what faith really is - it simply is not a work. Period.

When you condition Justification before God by something you do, by default it is a meritorious work. Not only that you disregard the blood of Jesus Christ alone to be the grounds of ones Justification before God.

 

[DaveXR650]

When you condition Justification before God by something you do, by default it is a meritorious work. Not only that you disregard the blood of Jesus Christ alone to be the grounds of ones Justification before God.

No. That is incorrect. And it doesn't matter if you up the controversy from just a theological debate by making false claims of what I am saying. You have claimed that I disregard the blood of Jesus alone to be the grounds for justification.

Now let me try to make this very clear to all you on here who have made all kinds of comments about what constitutes an attack and who is too sensitive. Back in post 262 I said this:

But you and the hyper-Calvinists and the PB's are as near as I can tell relying on the blood of Christ and his imputed righteousness same as me which is why I considers all these groups Christian brothers.

But you won't give me even that much consideration. No, in your eyes I disregard the blood of Christ. This is why debate cannot seem to stay friendly and why we can't really learn from each other. You happen to be wrong in this. If you are correctly representing some theological system then they are wrong too on very important, core issues.

 

[kyredneck]

When you condition Justification before God by something you do, by default it is a meritorious work. Not only that you disregard the blood of Jesus Christ alone to be the grounds of ones Justification before God.

Careful, Bright, you're 'attacking' him. He's very delicate and sensitive to 'attacks'.