no they don't. You stand apart from scripture in your perversion
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Pushing your beliefs on others
- Thread starter evangelist6589
- Start date
- Status
teachinghe penal substitution of the Cross, and God election are perversions?
your warped misunderstanding of election is the perversion
Ummm....
Bible version is not "based" on anything.
Bible version is derived from the bible, rightly divided.
Your perversion is based on the vain philosophies of men who were trying to discover truth after becoming disillusioned with the Roman Catholic Church.
Now, I can't really blame them for their errors, but you come along 500 years later and should know better
What errors did they have then?
I believe the Gospel should be shared so that at the least the name of Christ will be presented. That would be seed that could be watered. Many of these types have a very distorted view of the Bible, God, the church, etc. I think approaching with anything other than Christ will only feed their misconception. Any truth of Christ gives the Spirit of God something He can use to work on the heart.
There is no other option. Scripture makes it clear that salvation is not something that any man can achieve through effort, and it is not something any man can maintain/retain by effort.
It is a gift.
And when the final roll is called, it wil remain true...only the Elect will be/are saved.
That is precisely my point, lol.
Maturity is an altogether different topic from salvation itself. Maturity works within the framework of salvation, it is not a cause for either attaining, retaining, or maintaining.
While I would agree we can see a salfvific nature to those who receive the Word of God (good ground), that again has nothing to do with salvation being something attained to by the hearer. Keep in mind that the Word of God in this parable is given to the entire world.
We see the same concept given by the Writer of Hebrews:
Hebrews 6:7-8
King James Version (KJV)
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
The same thing is given unto men, the Word of God/Gospel, yet the result varies.
It does not imply that the ones receiving the Word of God, in or of themselves...contribute to the result.
So "the Elect" are the mature among believers?
And I would have to understand how you mean "Not every believer will win the prize," as to whether you are meaning "the prize" is salvation or not. While I take the view that men can "believe" without being regenerate/d, we do not call those men "believers." Devils believe, and tremble, doesn't make them believers in the Biblical sense.
Again, as already noted, the term "the Elect" holds an eternal perspective, rather than a temporal. Meaning, from the eternal perspective, one might be a member of the Elect, but not yet saved in this world.
And in the eternal perspective, there is no option for a single member of the Elect to go into eternal separation.
I don't diminish the "need for endurance and maturity," from a perspective of the Cause of Salvation, Scripture simply does not present this concept.
I would ask for a Scriptural basis for the demand of endurance and maturity on the believer, and how it shows this to be a stipulation for maintaining or retaining salvation.
God bless.
Think that our friend needs to rexamine Romans 8!
The natural man can only respond to the provision given to all men through the Ministry of the Comforter, Who supernaturally enlightens men to their condition.
The only "free will" any man will ever exercise in regards to the provision of salvation is, as was stated...
...is to reject the truth.
This is what Peter speaks about here:
2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
That is the very ministry that Christ spoke of in John 14 and 16. It is the same rejection of the Holy Ghost seen here:
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Men are born out of relationship with God. Jesus Christ is the Provision for men being reconciled to God. The Holy Ghost is the One Who enlightens the natural man to the Truth that he might be saved through yielding to the Truth.
Natural man will not, as was stated, turn to God of his own accord, because he is blinded to the truth by his very nature. But, within his nature is very much the capacity, and proclivity...to reject God and the Truth.
God bless.
It's a difficult subject. Best not to let the discussion break down to animosity. Both sides need to understand what the other side believes and why they believe it.
Romans 8 is an indisputable Biblical statement to the inability of man in regards to relationship with God, that is true, however, we must also understand how men were able to be in relationship with Him in the Old Testament Eras. When we place that in a proper context we begin to understand the Sovereignty of God a little better, I believe.
God bless.
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. Deut. 30:11-20
So God set life or death in front of the Israelites and implored them to choose. But you're saying that this is impossible for us to do.
26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” Ezekiel 18:11-32
So God commands that we repent, that we turn and live, that we get a new heart, but you're saying that it's impossible to do this! So God tells us to do something that we aren't equipped to do? Really?
And I would agree with that, but (and you knew that was coming)...
...it does not happen apart from the Revelation of God to men.
And that is exactly what the text you present represents: we have God revealing His will to men. He is still doing that today, but now He is doing this through the Ministry of the Comforter. In the Old Testament the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not yet revealed, and the promises of God not yet bestowed. In this Age those promises have been made available to men, and the rejection that takes place now is not a rejection of the will of God revealed to men by men, but the revelation of His will directly to the individual him/herself.
That is why there is no forgiveness for this sin, because they are rejecting forgiveness itself. Again, that is within the capacity of natural man, but discovering the truth through his own effort is not. That is a strict truth that is quoted in Romans 8. It is not sometimes men do not seek God, it is a matter that no man (within his natural state) seeks after God. After religion, yes. Men can respond to the internal witness God gives all men, and acknowledge His existence by the very nature of Creation itself, but, there is a difference between specific and general revelation and what that accomplishes in man's life.
For example:
Romans 2:11-16
King James Version (KJV)
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
These Gentiles were not eternally redeemed for obeying the revelation of God's will in their lives. Eternal Redemption was achieved by Christ Alone and awaited the day in which He would redeem those who, by faith, had obeyed God.
We see that made clear here:
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
By His Offering of Himself He obtained eternal redemption for us. Again, the point is, men were never eternally redeemed by obedience to the Law, and that is the context of the passage you have provided.
God bless.
Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 5 pm Pacific.
This thread will be closed sometime after 5 pm Pacific.
I understand what you are saying, but my point was only that an "offer" of something that isn't possible (I.e. salvation for the non-elect) is not a true offer. If Christ did not die for someone, then that person is incapable of receiving forgiveness, as there is no provision for the atonement for his sins.
I understand that one could say that the non-elect person wouldn't choose Christ anyway, and that's a fair point. Nevertheless, the "offer" to a non-elect person would be unintentionally misleading at best and blatantly duplicitous at worst. It is only a real offer if the offer, if accepted, will come to pass.
In the non-elect man's case, even hypothetically if God changed his heart and made him want to accept Christ, that wouldn't matter if Christ had not died for him.
I look at this line of debate as pointless, really, because we can see a logical acknowledgement of what we might call "given" in many of them.
For example, it is true to say "Only the Elect will be saved," but as I have pointed out, that is a given from the eternal perspective. Kind of like saying only the people thrown in the lake get wet.
It's just a fact that God so loved the world...not the Church.
And I hate to say it but these types of debates are specific to Systematic Theologies.
Me, I like to point out where both Calvinist and Arminian are in error.
They could say that but I don't think Scripture would let us uphold that view. There are numerous passages where we see men "believe" yet are made clear to be men who have not been saved. It is the Comforter that enlightens the natural mind to the Truth of the Gospel of Christ, and within that ministry there is a time frame, there is no demand for an immediate response. And within this timeframe it is obvious from statements from Hebrews and from Peter that men can become associated with the Church apart from yielding and being made regenerate.
That should be a sobering thought to all of us, and the very reason why we see warning given in Scripture to examine ourselves.
Christ taught this as well. For example, the Parable of the Tares presents what is genuine and what is not side by side and indistinguishable. We are taught to examine fruit, whether it be bad or good.
So again, when we examine issues like these, if we simply bring more into the equation and balance the teachings we have, we find a far more complicated issue than that which is usually debated.
And this is simply speculative reasoning which issues forth from debating Doctrinal positions of Systematic Theology/ies. If we simply stick with what Scripture teaches debates like these would cease and we could get about the business of learning Biblical Theology, which always triumphs over the Doctrines men establish and (seek to) maintain.
God bless.
Goodpoint, as we need to have a biblical theology in this area, as goodto trace how God dealt with sinners from Adam forward to Jesus...
Think that we can benffit from having both a Biblical and systematic theology in tjhe church, but even more importantly, need to just read and know the Bible better!I look at this line of debate as pointless, really, because we can see a logical acknowledgement of what we might call "given" in many of them.
For example, it is true to say "Only the Elect will be saved," but as I have pointed out, that is a given from the eternal perspective. Kind of like saying only the people thrown in the lake get wet.
It's just a fact that God so loved the world...not the Church.
And I hate to say it but these types of debates are specific to Systematic Theologies.
Me, I like to point out where both Calvinist and Arminian are in error.
They could say that but I don't think Scripture would let us uphold that view. There are numerous passages where we see men "believe" yet are made clear to be men who have not been saved. It is the Comforter that enlightens the natural mind to the Truth of the Gospel of Christ, and within that ministry there is a time frame, there is no demand for an immediate response. And within this timeframe it is obvious from statements from Hebrews and from Peter that men can become associated with the Church apart from yielding and being made regenerate.
That should be a sobering thought to all of us, and the very reason why we see warning given in Scripture to examine ourselves.
Christ taught this as well. For example, the Parable of the Tares presents what is genuine and what is not side by side and indistinguishable. We are taught to examine fruit, whether it be bad or good.
So again, when we examine issues like these, if we simply bring more into the equation and balance the teachings we have, we find a far more complicated issue than that which is usually debated.
And this is simply speculative reasoning which issues forth from debating Doctrinal positions of Systematic Theology/ies. If we simply stick with what Scripture teaches debates like these would cease and we could get about the business of learning Biblical Theology, which always triumphs over the Doctrines men establish and (seek to) maintain.
God bless.
And the one word that presents itself first when we look at "how God has dealt with man from Adam forward to Jesus" is grace.
It was grace that did not demand eternal separation for men like Abraham and David who died offering up only the deaths of others, their own deaths not exacted because Christ had not yet atoned for their sins on an eternal basis. It was grace that gives all men revelation of God that they might come into obedience to His Will.
But what I see often is a merging and blending of Old and New Testament concepts to the point where the distinctions that exist are lost, and the resulting Theology fails to place the differing provisions given to differing economies in a proper context.
God bless.
If it were possible for there to be a Systematic Theology that the Church could derive from Scripture and come into agreement with, then yes, that would be a good thing. The problem I see, though, is that whatever that Systematic Theology was...it would interfere with what most want to believe is true.
We have the truth of the Word of God as our guide, yet refusal to embrace a concept of error on our part demands a separation between differing groups of Christians. I think it very reasonable for many to want an ordered system of belief in regards to Scripture, and that this is why men adopt Systems that are available. I think this is why many are attracted to the Catholic Church, because we would think that if anything is going to be orderly in this world...it would be Christianity, right? Particularly when we are commanded to be orderly, lol, and in agreement.
But it's no different, I feel, than how most of us choose which fellowship we are going to attend: we look around until we find a group that...agrees with us.
God bless.
- Status