Question about a Catholic litany V2...

[Alive in Christ]

Agnus...

"oh, so AiC has some early 15th Century baptist writing on this matter...please, by all means post such material for the class...

The evidence is the scriptures.

We are speaking of the doctrine of imputed rightiousness.

At the moment a person is born of the Spirit and sealed into the body of Christ, they recieve the gift of imputed rightiousness. The sinless perfection of Christ is imputed to them...as a gift.

Every sin the person has ever commited, or ever will commit, is completely forgiven.

This took place on the cross of course.

This truth renders the Catholic and Orthodox views of....

"Hope so, think so, maybe so, if I'm good enough"

...forgiviness of sins as being complete error and nonsense.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The evidence is the scriptures.

Oh, per your interpretation I suppose?

We are speaking of the doctrine of imputed rightiousness. At the moment a person is born of the Spirit and sealed into the body of Christ, they recieve the gift of imputed rightiousness. The sinless perfection of Christ is imputed to them...as a gift.

Again, show the class any early Church document that proves Holy Scripture alludes to Simul iustus et peccator (at once justified and sinful) as Luther was say...

The Orthodox Church and the Fathers of the Church have never understood the term "righteousness" in a forensic sense as do you and the Roman Catholic Church...there's just no patristic forerunner to the Reformed concepts of either imputed righteousness or forensic justification.

However, the fact that God's Son died on the Cross for our sins does not negate the necessity of spiritual effort on our part—taking up our cross; dying to the vain things of this world—in short, "enduring to the end" as our Savior said. And put conversely, these Scriptural admonitions obviously do not undercut the efficacy of our Lord's supreme sacrifice.

In XC
-

 

[Alive in Christ]

AgnusDei...

"Again, show the class any early Church document that proves Holy Scripture alludes to Simul iustus et peccator (at once justified and sinful) as Luther was say..."

You consider Gods scriptures to be subservient to, and inferior to, that which is not Gods inerrant scriptures???

I would re-think that view if I were you.

God scriptures are living, and active and sharper than a 2 edged sword.

The Orthodox Church and the Fathers of the Church have never understood the term "righteousness" in a forensic sense as do you and the Roman Catholic Church...

I have no part of the Roman false cult, nor the equally in error Orthodox

there's just no patristic forerunner to the Reformed concepts of either imputed righteousness or forensic justification.

The scriptures of God speak for themselves.

"However, the fact that God's Son died on the Cross for our sins does not negate the necessity of spiritual effort on our part—taking up our cross; dying to the vain things of this world—in short, "enduring to the end" as our Savior said.

I agree with that. However, that would apply to rewards or loss of rewards...not our justification.

And put conversely, these Scriptural admonitions obviously do not undercut the efficacy of our Lord's supreme sacrifice.

If you REALLY believe that, than why are you advocating justification by works, which God condemns?

 

[lori4dogs]

Hi AiC:
Doesn't the Bible makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.

James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
Heb 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.
James 2:20-22
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
1 Cor 3:8
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.
Col 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.

(BTW, I am up to 5 dogs now, all rescues. Getting pretty hairy around here!)

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I have no part of the Roman false cult, nor the equally in error Orthodox

Then tell me, what, if anything did we inherit from Adam?

I agree with that. However, that would apply to rewards or loss of rewards...not our justification

Once again, your view of Justification is that of a legal declaration...and the legal framework for understanding Justification really hinges on the concept of justice as understood in the pagan Greek culture of St. Paul. But St. Paul was not only familiar with the Greek culture, but also St. Paul was familiar with his Jewish heritage and culture as well...so with this in mind, how do you view the word Justification mentioned in Romans?

The word dikaiosune, (justice), is a translation of the Hebraic word tsedaka. This word means the divine energy which accomplishes man’s salvation. It is parallel and almost synonymous to the other Hebraic word, hesed, which means (mercy), (compassion), (love),and to the word emeth which means (fidelity),(truth). This gives a completely other dimension to what we usually conceive as justice. This is how the Church understood God’s justice. This is what the Fathers of the Church taught of it - God is not just, with the human meaning of this word, but we see that His justice means His goodness and love, which are given in an unjust manner, that is, God always gives without taking anything in return, and He gives to persons like us who are not worthy of receiving.

The Orthodox sees justification primarily in an eschatological manner. Justification is both present and future, eliciting submission in loving response to the unmerited love of God by those who would respond in faith. So, for the Orthodox Christian, it is this imparted righteousness, (dikaiosune), (instead of a juridical justification) that is culminated eschatologically in the fullness of time through the mercy of God by our loving response, in faith to Him.

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

Hi AiC:
Doesn't the Bible makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.

Let me answer this (though AIC might as well)
Not necessarily. Salvation is a one time event. Works follow salvation as a result of it, but are never a part of it.

James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

A great passage often taken out of context.
Notice the last verse that is posted. That is the key to it all. Demonstrate your faith to me without your works (can't be done). And I will demonstrate my faith to you from (by in KJV) my works.
--In other words true believing faith in Christ (a one time event) is demonstrated by works. Works always follow faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--The Bible doesn't contradict itself. We are justified by faith, and not by works (See also Eph.2:8,9).

1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

This verse is directed at believers after a wonderful discourse on the resurrection. What then does "therefore" refer back to? Therefore...
Whenever you see a "therefore" look before to see why for the "therefore" is there for. That is the general rule.
And before the therefore is a discussion of the resurrection.
In light of the resurrection, "my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye
know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."
--It isn't talking about salvation at all. It is speaking about our service for the Lord.

Heb 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.

And so? Again he is speaking of our service for Him; not our salvation.

James 2:20-22
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

What kind of translation are you using that uses such crude language?
Faith was completed by the works. Again we looked at this passage first. The key verse is here:

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
--Works follows faith. Faith is proven to be genuine because works follows it. But we are not the judge of that. God is.

Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

And so he will. What has that to do with you or me. You are not God. Salvation is still of faith.
The next verse says:
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
He was speaking to Jews, and what the Jews were looking for--not heaven, but the Kingdom. The Kingdom will come when Christ comes in His glory. This hasn't happened yet.

1 Cor 3:8
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.

Again this is speaking of believers. We will receive reward in heaven according to our labor on earth--nothing to do with salvation.

Col 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.

Again, it is speaking of reward for believers only. It has nothing to do with salvation. Paul is speaking to believers, but he is not speaking of salvation.

 

[Zenas]

At the moment a person is born of the Spirit and sealed into the body of Christ, they recieve the gift of imputed rightiousness. The sinless perfection of Christ is imputed to them...as a gift.

Every sin the person has ever commited, or ever will commit, is completely forgiven.

This is garbage. It saddens me when I see that someone has fallen into the cult of Charles Stanley.

"When He died on the Cross, He took care of all of our sin. You say, 'You mean to tell me that if a person takes their own life, after all these things that you just talked about, all these sins, that that person is forgiven?' Yes! A believer who commits suicide is 'already forgiven'. Now I didn't say it was going to be good for him, but he is forgiven in advance. Pardoned of that sin. No matter what you do as a Child of God, you are forgiven. Murder, stealing, adultery, worshiping idols....all forgiven in advance!"--Charles Stanley.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Zenus...

The cult of Charles Stanley??

Bless your heart.


Here is a scripture for you...

"The Lord has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all"

What in the world to you think that means? Only the sins that are confessed and "repented" of? And only AFTER they are confessed and repented of?

And what do you think Christ meant when he cried "it is finished"?? All the "pain and suffering" is finished?

Not hardly. He meant that the totality of forgiviness, for every sin commited from Adams 1st one, to the last sin commited before the end of all things...HAS BEEN FORGIVEN.

The penalty for every sin ever commited is DEATH, and when Christ died that death every sin ever commited...past present and future...was pardoned.

Then...when a person comes to their senses and cries out to Christ for new life...the very life of Christ indwells them, and His perfect rightiousness and sinlessness is imputed to them.

PRAISE GOD FOREVER MORE

Sure, God expects us to be better people...and we will be, through His indwelling, and through His very life being expressed through us.

"for it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me

I wish I could post more scripture, but I'm using my piddly little lap top while my big one is being worked on. Its hard to copy and "cut and paste" with this little finger pad thingy.

Thankfully...DHK is filling in with lots of scripture than I cant do for the time being.

 

[DHK]

This is garbage. It saddens me when I see that someone has fallen into the cult of Charles Stanley.

Who is Charles Stanley? What does he believe? I don't know, and I don't really care.

But I do care what the Bible says:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.
--No condemnation! Isn't that a wonderful promise.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
--I am confident. Are you?

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--No conditions attached, are there?

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--Need I am emphasize salvation is not of works!

How can it be?
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Oh for the wonderful grace of the Lord Jesus Christ!
Just accept it by faith. Isn't it evident that His grace and works cannot go together?

Do I need to say more?
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Oops, I went and did it. I said more any way. Couldn't help myself. It is so clear here that a man is made righteous without any works whatsoever.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK,

With you being in Canada I guess you arent familiar with Charles Stanley.

He has been the senior pastor of a very large Baptist church in Atlanta for years and years. For the past 25 or 30 years or so he has taught the great truths of the scriptures through a radio and television ministry.

He is so far from being a "cult" that the very thought of it is quite ridiculous.

Praise the Lord

 

[lori4dogs]

Charles Stanley, as an author, is probably best known for his book 'Eternal Security,Can You Be Sure'. As the senior pastor of a 12,000 member Baptist church in Atlanta and twice elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention, he has lots of influence here in the states as well as global recognition, being found in every nation in some form via TV, radio and/or the distribution of his books.

I really like his writing style.

 

[Marcia]

Oh, per your interpretation I suppose?

Again, show the class any early Church document that proves Holy Scripture alludes to Simul iustus et peccator (at once justified and sinful) as Luther was say...

The Orthodox Church and the Fathers of the Church have never understood the term "righteousness" in a forensic sense as do you and the Roman Catholic Church...there's just no patristic forerunner to the Reformed concepts of either imputed righteousness or forensic justification.

The Bible teaches forensic justification, being declared righteous through faith in Christ.

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ Rom. 5:1

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. Rom. 5:9

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor. 6:11

nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. Gal 2:16

Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. Gal. 3:24

In context, the verses above speak of this justification which occurs at the moment of faith. It does not mean that one is sinless, only declared righteous.

Sanctification is the process of growing in Christ, the ongoing process of becoming more holy and Christlike through the power of the Holy Spirit.

James speaks of justification in terms of our faith being justified by works; iow, our faith is displayed in our works, therefore, the works justify the faith before men. But man is not justified by works for salvation. The context of James makes that clear.

However, the fact that God's Son died on the Cross for our sins does not negate the necessity of spiritual effort on our part—taking up our cross; dying to the vain things of this world—in short, "enduring to the end" as our Savior said. And put conversely, these Scriptural admonitions obviously do not undercut the efficacy of our Lord's supreme sacrifice.

Spiritual effort and enduring to the end are part of sanctification, the ongoing process of becoming more like Christ.

 

[Grace&Truth]

Interesting debate, but I wanted to add a verse to refute Purgatory and also add to what has already been mentioned above.

(Heb 1:3) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

If He (Jesus) Purged all our sin then what more could be purged in Purgatory? NONE, He did it all. also after He did this (It is finished) He sat down on the right hand of the Father- so there is no more sacrifice or ongoing sacrifice. Again it is finished.

 

[Alive in Christ]

"when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

And the purging of our sins is referred to in the past tense.

The purging (forgiviness) of our sins is clearly being described as a past tense already accomplished fact.

 

[Zenas]

Reply to Alive in Christ and DHK regarding the cult of Charles Stanley:

If, at the moment of being saved, all your sins are forgiven--past, present and future--what is the point of 1 John 1:9? Or for that matter James 5:16? How can you ask for forgiveness of sins that are already forgiven?

As far as Stanley is concerned, he did great work in rescuing the SBC from a drift toward liberalism. But for him and other like minded Southern Baptists, the SBC today would be in a state of moral and financial decline just like the "main line" Protestant denominations. I used to watch him regularly on TV and much admired him. Then I heard a sermon very similar to the one I quoted above and lost all confidence in him. His church is certainly not a cult but to believe like he does concerning eternal security is definitely cultic. It is a dangerous doctrine that can easily lead to licentiousness.

 

[DHK]

Reply to Alive in Christ and DHK regarding the cult of Charles Stanley:

If, at the moment of being saved, all your sins are forgiven--past, present and future--what is the point of 1 John 1:9? Or for that matter James 5:16? How can you ask for forgiveness of sins that are already forgiven?

The epistle of First John was written to believers and for believers. Throughout John uses the pronouns "we", "us", "our" etc., including himself as one of the believers, and as the verses applicable to himself as well.
Thus:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
--we confess
--our sins
--forgive us
--our sins
--cleanse us

There are five personal plural pronouns where John includes himself. John is not an unbeliever, and the verse does not refer to salvation. It refers to the ongoing sanctification of the believer.

My child will always be my child no matter what happens. When my child lies to me it hinders our relationship. That relationship is restored when my child confesses that lie to me, and I am faithful to him and forgive him for what he has done. This is the relationship between a believer to his Heavenly Father. It has nothing to do with salvation, but with a restored relationship with God. John had never lost his salvation.

As far as Stanley is concerned, he did great work in rescuing the SBC from a drift toward liberalism. But for him and other like minded Southern Baptists, the SBC today would be in a state of moral and financial decline just like the "main line" Protestant denominations. I used to watch him regularly on TV and much admired him. Then I heard a sermon very similar to the one I quoted above and lost all confidence in him. His church is certainly not a cult but to believe like he does concerning eternal security is definitely cultic. It is a dangerous doctrine that can easily lead to licentiousness.

I don't really care what the SBC does. And I don't really care about Charles Stanley. I say that because they are not my standard. The Bible is. It is my only standard. If you must know I am IFB, separate from any association of Baptists. The Bible alone is my authority. It is the Bible that teaches eternal security. Stanley is only teaching what the Bible has taught for centuries. If you don't believe in this very Scriptural doctrine then perhaps the shoe is on the other proverbial foot, and it is you who has the cultic theology. What is good for goose is good for the gander.

One cannot simply deny the Scriptures just because they don't believe in a certain doctrine:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Without posting any other verse, would you like to expound on the one above?

 

[Matt Black]

In context, the verses above speak of this justification which occurs at the moment of faith. It does not mean that one is sinless, only declared righteous.

Sanctification is the process of growing in Christ, the ongoing process of becoming more holy and Christlike through the power of the Holy Spirit.



Spiritual effort and enduring to the end are part of sanctification, the ongoing process of becoming more like Christ.

OK, I'll repeat the question I asked on the previous thread: how and when are we made sinless and made like Christ and what if that process is incomplete at the point of death?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Agnus...





The evidence is the scriptures.

We are speaking of the doctrine of imputed rightiousness.

At the moment a person is born of the Spirit and sealed into the body of Christ, they recieve the gift of imputed rightiousness. The sinless perfection of Christ is imputed to them...as a gift.

Every sin the person has ever commited, or ever will commit, is completely forgiven.

This took place on the cross of course.

This truth renders the Catholic and Orthodox views of....

"Hope so, think so, maybe so, if I'm good enough"

...forgiviness of sins as being complete error and nonsense.

I think to understand the Catholic and EO position and Possibly the Anglican position on this you have to understand Theosis. The process to which we aquire the mind of Christ. Their point of view is that this life is a process in which we by obeying God and devoting ourselves to be his disciples our minds become more Christ like. The question is this. By the time we die have we completed this process? From what my father has mentioned about Purgatory its the burning away of the vestiges of anything that hasn't conformed to Christ and by burned he suggest that its a renewal of the Covenant which has always been symbolozed by fire which is indicative ofthe presence of God. I have to admit there is something alluring about this consept. However, there is no indication of this in scripture and is only attained by Tradition. How then is the theif on the cross explained? Is paradise in reality the fire (covenant fire indicating God's presence) of purification or is it the promise. Or Do our spirits automatically perseive Christ in totality thus anything not conformed to christ falls away as we shrug off this mortal coil?

 

[Matt Black]

It is perhaps alluded to in Scripture eg: I Cor 3:12-15, although I accept that it needs Tradition to give that particular interpretation to that passage.

 

[Jim1999]

I think part of the problem we have understanding some doctrines is our concept of time. We can only understand what we see, feel, touch. When, in fact, many doctrines have their activation in eternity. This is why we can say, we have been saved, we are being saved and ultimately will be saved.....and yet, when we receive Christ as Saviour we are saved.

It would be interesting to sit down with a Roman Catholic, Anglican and have each doctrine explained.

For example, ask some Anglicans what they understand about infant baptism. Instead we argue on what we think they teach!

Cheers,

Jim