Question about a Catholic litany

[lori4dogs]

Lori sarcastically asked: "And what Catholic Church still teaches about indulgences today?" Lori is the Catholic, and she ought to know.

I believe I said sell indulgences, not teach about them. If I didn't, that is what I meant.

 

[DHK]

Lori sarcastically asked: "And what Catholic Church still teaches about indulgences today?" Lori is the Catholic, and she ought to know.

I believe I said sell indulgences, not teach about them. If I didn't, that is what I meant.

You can tell me whether nowadays they are sold or given away. I don't know since I haven't asked. I was in a Catholic Church a year ago for my mother's funeral. I didn't appreciate the mass being said. I didn't appreciate the priest trying to "pray my mother into heaven." She was either saved or lost. The decision was already made. There was nothing he could do about it. His prayer was worthless as far as that was concerned. All the liturgy and ceremony was just a play on the people's emotions. It was shameful. There were no words of comfort that he could give. The only comfort that a person can give comes from the Word of God, which Catholic priests are woefully ignorant of. I suppose that is why they have simple readings. They are unable to expound--give the clear sense of the Word.

However, that being the case, according to your Catechism indulgences are still being used. So whether sold, given away, or marketed under the black market--they are used. You don't get off on a technicality. Go and read Martin Luther's account of going to Rome, while still a priest of good standing in the Catholic Church, when he saw the priests in all of their corruption making such a great profit off of the selling of indulgences. They trade money for the souls of mankind. What a farce!

 

[lori4dogs]

You can tell me whether nowadays they are sold or given away. I don't know since I haven't asked. I was in a Catholic Church a year ago for my mother's funeral. I didn't appreciate the mass being said. I didn't appreciate the priest trying to "pray my mother into heaven." She was either saved or lost. The decision was already made. There was nothing he could do about it. His prayer was worthless as far as that was concerned. All the liturgy and ceremony was just a play on the people's emotions. It was shameful. There were no words of comfort that he could give. The only comfort that a person can give comes from the Word of God, which Catholic priests are woefully ignorant of. I suppose that is why they have simple readings. They are unable to expound--give the clear sense of the Word.

However, that being the case, according to your Catechism indulgences are still being used. So whether sold, given away, or marketed under the black market--they are used. You don't get off on a technicality. Go and read Martin Luther's account of going to Rome, while still a priest of good standing in the Catholic Church, when he saw the priests in all of their corruption making such a great profit off of the selling of indulgences. They trade money for the souls of mankind. What a farce!

DHK: You know better! You know that the Catholic Church doesn't teach that a persons soul can be saved after they die. You say she was either saved or lost. The Catholic Church AGREES with that completely AND YOU KNOW IT! You have been involved in the debates for years on this board and this has been pointed out to you by way of the catechism on a number of times. For you to insinuate that the Catholic Church teaches that your mother could be 'prayed into heaven instead of going to hell is deception on your part. Shame on you!

And as far as going and reading, how 'bout you do the same. You say you have over 2,000 books. Bet none of them are written from a Catholic view.
You see, I have a lot of books as well and they range from Charles Stanley to Scott Hahn and Karl Keating.

 

[DHK]

DHK: You know better! You know that the Catholic Church doesn't teach that a persons soul can be saved after they die. You say she was either saved or lost. The Catholic Church AGREES with that completely AND YOU KNOW IT! You have been involved in the debates for years on this board and this has been pointed out to you by way of the catechism on a number of times. For you to insinuate that the Catholic Church teaches that your mother could be 'prayed into heaven instead of going to hell is deception on your part. Shame on you!

I know better. You know better. I am only relating to you what I observed. So why didn't the Catholic priest know better. Was this his way of "comforting" the others that were lost, and knew not the gospel, a gospel that he could not preach, a gospel that the RCC does not preach. Don't get angry at me. I am only a messenger reporting at what I observed and heard just over one year ago. This wasn't some twenty years ago; it was just over one year ago. You cannot pray a person into heaven, so why would a Catholic priest try and do so? Don't "shame on me," for telling you the truth. Go tell your priests.

And as far as going and reading, how 'bout you do the same. You say you have over 2,000 books. Bet none of them are written from a Catholic view.
You see, I have a lot of books as well and they range from Charles Stanley to Scott Hahn and Karl Keating.

I have the Catholic Catechism, Vatican II proclamations, City of God by St. Augustine, and a number of current books written by current authors of the RCC. I have a section devoted to world religions, of which the RCC is but one of them.

 

[Eric B]

Just a note. Weren't there tongues of fire on Pentecost? Or was that just a symbolic referrence? Maybe the Pillar of fire was also a symbol or the burning bush, or the brand of fire. None of these things actually occured because they were most likely symbolic spiritual meaning.

Eric, if it's all symbolic, why do any of us - Baptist, Catholic, Anglican, etc - baptise in/with water?

But none of us use literal fire also. In Acts, it was actually "tongues like as of fire". Water symbolizes the "washing"; so it can be literally used, but it does not do the spiritual (not literal) washing (of sins).

 

[Matt Black]

It effects our spiritual death and resurrection, as Rom 6 makes clear. I think, picking up on your post, that we need to distinguish between the sacrament and the matter used in the sacrament. Literal water does not save, does not spiritually wash us from sin etc. But baptism does, and baptism without literal water is not baptism. Similarly, bread and wine do not communicate Christ to us. But the Eucharist does, and a Eucharist without bread and wine is no Eucharist.

The difference is that Baptists, Methodists, etc who are ignorant of the Scriptures are ignorant because of individual laziness. Catholics are ignorant of the Scripture (if that is what you call Catholic writings outside the Inspired Word) because the Catholic Church in all their theological wisdom does not encourage individual Scripture study.

Er...yes it does. My late Catholic grandmother used to read four Scripture passages on her own every morning before she had breakfast. She had a Bible in her bedroom and another one in her living room.

 

[Matt Black]

Look at this nonsense from catholicdoors.com. Notice, they deny praying to Mary, but "to Jesus through Mary." In a previous post, it was claimed by one of the know it alls of Catholic doctrine that 1. They did not pray to dead saints 2. That there was one mediator between us and God, that being Jesus Christ. Now, I would like to know if the bood of Hebrews is in the Bible the Catholics read. Also, I would like to know why we are not only using a local rotten to the core priest as a go between to Jesus, now we are going through Mary. Why are these other characters in the picture when only Jesus Christ is our Mediator?

Notice how they say not "Mary through Jesus, or Jesus and Mary." Mary is now an intercessor to God for the benefit of mankind. Now why is that? I thought that was the role of Jesus Christ, our living, risen Lord. It is all a word game, so they can say praying to Mary does not equate to God. The fact is the only One who is worthy of our worship and prayers is a being who is the Creator. Why would anyone pray to a created being, equal with God or not? Mary was like any other human being, no doubt used by God for a mighty purpose, but still a sinner in need of a Savior.

Hmmm....methinks you are misunderstanding the difference between a mediator and an intercessor. A mediator stands between sinful humanity and the perfect God to bring those two parties together. That role is properly and solely attributed to Jesus Christ by virtue of Him being 100% God and 100% Man and His atoning work on the Cross. An intercessor, theologically speaking, is someone who intercedes through prayer with the Godhead - including the Second Person ie: Jesus - on our behalf, sometimes effectively adding his/her prayers to our own. So, if you're ill and you ask me to pray for your healing, by so doing I will be interceding with God on your behalf. I'm not mediating anything, because I am incapable of thus usurping Christ's work, but I am making intercession for you.

 

[Matt Black]

Since when does rebirth take place at baptism? [/qb]

Since the Apostle Paul dictated Romans 6, for example.

[qb]The Bible is in complete harmony, and it is made quite clear that salvation is by faith alone, not works.[/qb]

Yes it is in complete harmony and I guess the Apostle James didn't get your memo (James 2:14-26)

 

[Matt Black]

The problem is, the catechism does not teach that.[/qb]

Er...yes it does. As TS has stated, those destined for Hell go straight there, not via Purgatory, and no amount of post-mortem prayer for them can prevent that - they have made their decision to knowingly reject Christ in this life and must bear the consequences of that for all eternity. All those in Purgatory are Heaven-bound only, their sanctification being perfected by the Holy Spirit, just as our sanctification is in progress through Him in this present life.

 

[Matt Black]

Another aspect of all this which I have never been able to pin down on paper, is a discussion I had with a Catholic church official last time I went to a baptism for a distant family member. It is the concept of the local church. The term "local Catholic Church" was mentioned above.

As I understood what this person told me, there is no per se local church roll. You are a member of the greater Catholic Church and in theory, a member of any church you worship at any given point in time. There is no membership or letter transfer from one church to another.

Of course, Baptist churches are all autonomous, and generally only accept letters from churches of like faith and order. Even in the Protestant denominations, even though they high a heirachy, require some kind of letter of transfer, or statement of faith. There is a definite local church identity in both cases.

Since I do not know for sure, is there such thing as a local Catholic Church with their own membership rolls and requiring a letter in good standing to go from one church to another? The New Testement churches Paul wrote his letters to were local churches carrying out God's will and spreading the Gospel. Do the Catholics look at their church as one big Universal Church? This is an honest question, as I do not know for sure.

Yes, there is a parochial electoral role, but being on it just gives you the right to vote in Parochial Church Council meetings and alerts the priest to the fact that you exist (oh, and it also is of legal benefit if you want to get married in the parish). It has no theological effect though: it's generally assumed in practice that if you go up to receive Communion at any Mass anywhere in the world that you are a card-carrying communicating member of the Catholic Church unless shown to the contrary - it's very much regarded as a matter between the individual and God.

 

[saturneptune]

Since the Apostle Paul dictated Romans 6, for example. Yes it is in complete harmony and I guess the Apostle James didn't get your memo (James 2:14-26)

Pure baloney and a total lack of understanding of Scripture. James, the whole book of James, says faith without works is dead. Works are a RESULT of faith, not a means to achieve faith or salvation. Ever heard of the cart before the horse? That is one of those little play on words that makes the Catholic Church the evil entity that it is. If there is no works, there was never any faith or salvation to start with.

As far as your comments on Baptism and Communion, they are also a word game. Water, bread, and wine are symbols. There is no physical magic to it. The only thing that differs from this statement and your first ridiculous one is that a misunderstanding of the first one affects people's eternal destiny.

This shows a total lack of understanding of Scripture.

 

[saturneptune]

Hmmm....methinks you are misunderstanding the difference between a mediator and an intercessor. A mediator stands between sinful humanity and the perfect God to bring those two parties together. That role is properly and solely attributed to Jesus Christ by virtue of Him being 100% God and 100% Man and His atoning work on the Cross. An intercessor, theologically speaking, is someone who intercedes through prayer with the Godhead - including the Second Person ie: Jesus - on our behalf, sometimes effectively adding his/her prayers to our own. So, if you're ill and you ask me to pray for your healing, by so doing I will be interceding with God on your behalf. I'm not mediating anything, because I am incapable of thus usurping Christ's work, but I am making intercession for you.

Word games, and word games that are spreading a false Gospel. We have One Mediator,or Intercessor, and His name is Jesus Christ. That is it, end of story. Reread Hebrews. You pray to a Creator, NOT created beings for intervention. You can take Peter, Paul, Mary, (good group), Patrick, Thomas, James, Joseph, Willie, Waylan, and the boys, sell their statues for a buck, and buy a cup of coffee.

If prayer needs are there for intercession, it is though Jesus Christ, the Creator, to the Father, the Creater, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, the Creator.

You have got to be kidding. And as far as the difference between intercession and mediation, that goes for your rotten to the core priests also.

 

[saturneptune]

I know better. You know better. I am only relating to you what I observed. So why didn't the Catholic priest know better. Was this his way of "comforting" the others that were lost, and knew not the gospel, a gospel that he could not preach, a gospel that the RCC does not preach. Don't get angry at me. I am only a messenger reporting at what I observed and heard just over one year ago. This wasn't some twenty years ago; it was just over one year ago. You cannot pray a person into heaven, so why would a Catholic priest try and do so? Don't "shame on me," for telling you the truth. Go tell your priests.
I have the Catholic Catechism, Vatican II proclamations, City of God by St. Augustine, and a number of current books written by current authors of the RCC. I have a section devoted to world religions, of which the RCC is but one of them.

No you do not. You need to learn your own faith.

 

[Matt Black]

Pure baloney and a total lack of understanding of Scripture. James, the whole book of James, says faith without works is dead. Works are a RESULT of faith, not a means to achieve faith or salvation. Ever heard of the cart before the horse? That is one of those little play on words that makes the Catholic Church the evil entity that it is. If there is no works, there was never any faith or salvation to start with.

I was referring in particular where James says that we are NOT saved by faith alone. This is the ONE place in the Bible where it talks about salvation and faith alone in the same sentence and the result ain't sola fide...

As far as your comments on Baptism and Communion, they are also a word game. Water, bread, and wine are symbols.

Says who, and on what basis?

This shows a total lack of understanding of Scripture.

Really? And on what do you base your allegedly superior understanding of Scripture?

 

[saturneptune]

It is beyond my wildest imagination that someone who labels themselves as part of the Baptist faith (regardless of stripe) can within a few posts declare the following:
1. a belief in regenerational Baptism
2. a belief in transubstitution
3. a belief in some other mediator/intercessor than Jesus Christ
4. a total misunderstanding of the relationship between faith and works, the idea of works leading to faith or salvation. This one is dangerous to eternal destiny.
5. putting any stock in sinful beings, whether it be for prayer, intercession, or any other purpose. They are all sinful, created beings, no better or worse than you or me.

 

[Matt Black]

Word games, and word games that are spreading a false Gospel.

Neither word games nor so easily dismissed, either.

We have One Mediator,or Intercessor, and His name is Jesus Christ.

Yep, 100% true, fine with that.

That is it, end of story.

So you don't ask people to pray for you when you're having a hard time? What's the point of church, then, of fellowship?

Reread Hebrews.

Already have and agree with it.

You pray to a Creator, NOT created beings for intervention.

Correct. So?

If prayer needs are there for intercession, it is though Jesus Christ, the Creator, to the Father, the Creater, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, the Creator.

I ask again: I presume therefore you never ask people to pray for you, since clearly that would detract from the role of Jesus Christ in your schema?

And as far as the difference between intercession and mediation, that goes for your rotten to the core priests also.

'Scuse me? What's with the insults? Sounds to me that you know you haven't got much of a case if you're stooping to this kind of language...

 

[saturneptune]

I was referring in particular where James says that we are NOT saved by faith alone. This is the ONE place in the Bible where it talks about salvation and faith alone in the same sentence and the result ain't sola fide...

Says who, and on what basis?

Really? And on what do you base your allegedly superior understanding of Scripture?

You bet it is. From the garbage you just posted, I would put more faith in a Dr Suess book than what you just typed. You DO NOT understand James. We are saved by faith alone. No works means no faith. That is exactly what it says. Why is that so hard to understand? Making verses isolated apart from being in harmony with the rest of the Bible is going to split the gates of hell wide open.

 

[Matt Black]

It is beyond my wildest imagination that someone who labels themselves as part of the Baptist faith (regardless of stripe) can within a few posts declare the following:
1. a belief in regenerational Baptism
2. a belief in transubstitution
3. a belief in some other mediator/intercessor than Jesus Christ
4. a total misunderstanding of the relationship between faith and works, the idea of works leading to faith or salvation. This one is dangerous to eternal destiny.
5. putting any stock in sinful beings, whether it be for prayer, intercession, or any other purpose. They are all sinful, created beings, no better or worse than you or me.

To whom are you referring?

 

[Matt Black]

You bet it is. From the garbage you just posted, I would put more faith in a Dr Suess book than what you just typed. You DO NOT understand James. We are saved by faith alone. No works means no faith. That is exactly what it says. Why is that so hard to understand? Making verses isolated apart from being in harmony with the rest of the Bible is going to split the gates of hell wide open.

I repeat my question: on what basis do you claim (other than arrogance) that your understanding of Scripture (James in particular) is superior to mine?

 

[saturneptune]

Neither word games nor so easily dismissed, either. Yep, 100% true, fine with that. So you don't ask people to pray for you when you're having a hard time? What's the point of church, then, of fellowship? Already have and agree with it. Correct. So?
I ask again: I presume therefore you never ask people to pray for you, since clearly that would detract from the role of Jesus Christ in your schema?

'Scuse me? What's with the insults? Sounds to me that you know you haven't got much of a case if you're stooping to this kind of language...

People who we ask to pray for us are alive on this earth. They are not dead saints as deemed by an evil entity here on earth as authorized prayer warriors. The only Mary I may ask to pray for me is Sister Mary that is in the choir.

I have got to say, this is the worst lack of understanding of Scripture I have seen on this board.