Question about a Catholic litany

[Thinkingstuff]

Water is symbolic, just as "baptism with fire" as appears in Matthew's version. You can see this symbolic/spiritual meaning of water in Eph 5:26.

Just a note. Weren't there tongues of fire on Pentecost? Or was that just a symbolic referrence? Maybe the Pillar of fire was also a symbol or the burning bush, or the brand of fire. None of these things actually occured because they were most likely symbolic spiritual meaning.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Yes, but that faith has to be 'ratified' as it were by the child as s/he grows up. Part of the point of Catholic confirmation is to provide an opportunity for the young adult to express that faith and affirm for him/herself the faith promises made by the parents at baptism.

Yes, but the act of being born again has nothing to do with the child. It is not their personal faith, but the faith of the parents/priest and by the water that it is believed a person is born again.

 

[Matt Black]

True, but it does have to be subsequently affirmed - 'confirmed' - by the child in Catholic soteriology; Catholics don't believe in OSAS.

Eric, if it's all symbolic, why do any of us - Baptist, Catholic, Anglican, etc - baptise in/with water?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

True, but it does have to be subsequently affirmed - 'confirmed' - by the child in Catholic soteriology; Catholics don't believe in OSAS.

Eric, if it's all symbolic, why do any of us - Baptist, Catholic, Anglican, etc - baptise in/with water?

Has it ever been confirmed with the individual to not be born again? If so, and they lost their born again, how many times can a person be born again again.

 

[lori4dogs]

No amount of holy water, hail marys, lighted candles, sprinklings, priests in a phone booth, papal authority, talking to lifeless statues of dead sinners, or prayers for the dead are going to change that. There is one mediator and one alone between us and God, and that is Jesus Christ.

Catholics can't talk to lifeless statues (they are forbidden to do so), holy water is a means to remind us of our baptism into Christ, lighting candles does not effect whether or not we have salvation. They are simply a symbol of a prayer. And yes, there is only ONE mediator between us and God and that is Jesus Christ. We confess to God before a priest (how does that scripture go? Oh, confess your sins one to another so that you might be healed). BTW, the Catholic Church teaches that once you die you are either saved or not saved. No amount of praying for someones soul is going to pursuade God to bring you out of hell if that is where you are bound. READ THE CATHECHISM, IT IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR YOU HAVE NOT!

 

[Matt Black]

Has it ever been confirmed with the individual to not be born again? If so, and they lost their born again, how many times can a person be born again again.

I don't understand your first question - please clarify - and your second question might as well be addressed to any Arminian, mightn't it?

 

[DHK]

No amount of holy water, hail marys, lighted candles, sprinklings, priests in a phone booth, papal authority, talking to lifeless statues of dead sinners, or prayers for the dead are going to change that. There is one mediator and one alone between us and God, and that is Jesus Christ.

Catholics can't talk to lifeless statues (they are forbidden to do so), holy water is a means to remind us of our baptism into Christ, lighting candles does not effect whether or not we have salvation. They are simply a symbol of a prayer. And yes, there is only ONE mediator between us and God and that is Jesus Christ. We confess to God before a priest (how does that scripture go? Oh, confess your sins one to another so that you might be healed). BTW, the Catholic Church teaches that once you die you are either saved or not saved. No amount of praying for someones soul is going to pursuade God to bring you out of hell if that is where you are bound. READ THE CATHECHISM, IT IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR YOU HAVE NOT!

I think it is abundantly clear that you haven't. Either that or you take sections of it out the entire context and make them say the opposite of what they are really saying.

Neither have you endeavored or even tried to answer: What it means to be born again?
Afraid of what the Scripture teaches, are you?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I don't understand your first question - please clarify - and your second question might as well be addressed to any Arminian, mightn't it?

Sure I will clarify.

It is believed by RCs that a baby is born again by water and the faith of the parents/priests. As you said, this is later confirmed (and either affirmed or no) by the individual.

If it (being born again) is not confirmed...then is the conlusion that they lost their born-again-ness and must be born again, again? I am assuming it would not be concluded that they were never born again otherwise it would impugn the doctrine.

As for Arminians who believe they can become un-born again, I do not know. I am not an Arminian of any kind.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

No amount of holy water, hail marys, lighted candles, sprinklings, priests in a phone booth, papal authority, talking to lifeless statues of dead sinners, or prayers for the dead are going to change that. There is one mediator and one alone between us and God, and that is Jesus Christ.

Catholics can't talk to lifeless statues (they are forbidden to do so), holy water is a means to remind us of our baptism into Christ, lighting candles does not effect whether or not we have salvation. They are simply a symbol of a prayer. And yes, there is only ONE mediator between us and God and that is Jesus Christ. We confess to God before a priest (how does that scripture go? Oh, confess your sins one to another so that you might be healed). BTW, the Catholic Church teaches that once you die you are either saved or not saved. No amount of praying for someones soul is going to pursuade God to bring you out of hell if that is where you are bound. READ THE CATHECHISM, IT IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR YOU HAVE NOT!

I would say, being someone who says they are Roman Catholic, that you have very Protestant/Evangelical leaning beliefs. Many of us have studied the teachings of Rome and find a much different story than what your describing.

 

[DHK]

No amount of holy water, hail marys, lighted candles, sprinklings, priests in a phone booth, papal authority, talking to lifeless statues of dead sinners, or prayers for the dead are going to change that. There is one mediator and one alone between us and God, and that is Jesus Christ.

You need to quit the Catholic Church. Stop making false statements about the Catholic; and learn what the Catholic Church teaches. Honestly with your beliefs you would be better off outside of the Catholic Church, not as one of the reformers inside of it. Let's examine some of your statements:

1. Have you ever prayed through the rosary? There are 53 Hail Mary's in the rosary. I have prayed through it many times. Each time one prays a "Hail Mary," then Mary becomes an intercessor. It is a false statement for you to say that Jesus is the one mediator between the Catholics and God. If anything Mary is more of a mediator. She is the Redemptrix in the RCC. There are many prayers that adore her, and worship her as God. She takes the place of God or becomes another god. Look at other prayers that are offered to her. In the past Bob Ryan and others have posted many that have been offered to her. She is an object of worship, adoration, and the reverence that belongs only to God. She is treated as omniscient and omnipresent--attributes that belong only to God. Mary, in the Catholic Church is indeed an intercessor. It is a false statement to say there is only one mediator--Jesus Christ.

2. When I was younger I prayed to other "saints" as well: St. Christopher, the patron saint of travel for example. They also are intercessors or mediators. Please come to realize that praying to the dead is condemned in the Bible.

3. And what about these "lifeless statues"? Have you ever prayed going through the stations of the cross, stopping at each one. I have. Why pray in front of each one? The Bible describes that as idolatry. You deny this happens. You know little of the RCC. Praying before a lifeless statute is done on a regular basis. I used to do in, and now I realize that it is pure idolatry, condemned in the Ten Commandments. It is a graven image, which God commanded not to bow down before. The RCC ignores these commands. Your above statements show your ignorance of the Catholic Church.

Catholics can't talk to lifeless statues (they are forbidden to do so),

And yet they do it anyway. It is a regular practice.

holy water is a means to remind us of our baptism into Christ,

Try again. One enters into the church, dips their hand into "holy water", making the sign of the cross at the same time and "blesses themself." I have news for you. Only God can give you that blessing. The RCC is proud and lifted up thinking that they can bestow blessings upon themselves with H2O, all the while leaving God out of the picture. It is rote practice done without thinking. Been there; done that.

lighting candles does not effect whether or not we have salvation. They are simply a symbol of a prayer.

It is part of the liturgy of the mass. It appeals to the emotion aspect of the being. If you ask the common person, why light the candles they wouldn't know--maybe to give more light. What makes you think it is a symbol of prayer. Where does the Bible teach that?

And yes, there is only ONE mediator between us and God and that is Jesus Christ.

Then why pray to Mary?

We confess to God before a priest (how does that scripture go?

There is no such Scripture, as the Scripture teaches that all believers are priests before God, and every believer has the right to come straight before the throne of God. If there is only one mediator then do away with the priests completely. Now you are contradicting yourself.

Oh, confess your sins one to another so that you might be healed).

Confession of sins to anyone won't heal anyone. Taking scripture out of context doesn't score you any brownie points. It only shows your ignorance of the Word of God. When was the last time you were healed because you went to a confessional?

BTW, the Catholic Church teaches that once you die you are either saved or not saved. No amount of praying for someones soul is going to pursuade God to bring you out of hell if that is where you are bound. READ THE CATHECHISM, IT IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR YOU HAVE NOT!

No it does not teach that. It teaches that all who have mortal sin on their soul will go to hell, and the rest (which have venial sin--almost all of us) will end up in purgatory. Almost no one will go straight to heaven. The reason indulgences are sold is to help get loved ones out of purgatory sooner. The reason one prays through the rosary more times than necessary is to help people get out of purgatory.

You don't know much about the Catholic Church do you?

 

[lori4dogs]

DHK: There is no such Scripture,

James 5:16

The reason indulgences are sold is to help get loved ones out of purgatory sooner.
And what church is selling these today?

Then why pray to Mary?
I ask Mary to intercede for me. Just like you ask people to intercede for you.

Where does the Bible teach that? Why does the Bible have to teach that? Are the pews you sit in, the hymnals you sing from, the pulpit you preach from, the banners you hang from your walls, the crosses you hang in front of your Baptist churches in the Bible some where??

If you ask the common person, why light the candles they wouldn't know--maybe to give more light. Big assumption DHK

 

[lori4dogs]

To the poster who asked for a Catholic forum in which people on this board may visit and (hopefully) be respectful in asking questions about the Catholic faith, I suggest you try:
http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&sou

It is the Catholic Answers website and has a forum which will ACCURATELY answer your questions. In the past, people who have provided links to Catholic websites have been chastized so I hope I'm not crossing the line in providing this one.

God bless!

 

[lori4dogs]

Well, that link didn't work for me. Try this one and click on the forum link:

http://www.catholic.com/

 

[DHK]

DHK: There is no such Scripture,

James 5:16

It is one verse that is taken out of its context. Look at the entire context:

James 5:14-16 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The entire context is one who has a serious sickness and has come to the elders or pastors of the church that he/she might be especially prayed over and anointed with oil (a symbolic act). The context indicates that the sickness has been brought upon by some specific sin, and is a divine judgment (if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven him). The passage then goes on and warns such people to keep their hearts with God. If you have sinned against your brother go to him and confess that fault to him, that you may be healed or avoid the judgment of God.

Do we have an example of this in Scripture? Yes. Check 1Cor.11:30
The Corinthians were making a mockery of the Lord's Table. God judged them for it. The verse says:
For this cause many of you are weak, many sick, and many of you are dead.
That was God's judgment upon the Corinthian Church for abusing the Lord's Table. They had to make things right to avoid the judgement of God. The verse is in the context of divine healing. It is not in the context that you were using it. You can't rip a verse out of its context and make it say something different than what it was intended to say.

The reason indulgences are sold is to help get loved ones out of purgatory sooner.
And what church is selling these today?

Was the practice officially rescinded? Show me in the catechism.

Then why pray to Mary?

I ask Mary to intercede for me. Just like you ask people to intercede for you.

"Hail Mary full of grace pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death amen."
The RCC prays TO Mary. You ask people to pray FOR you. There is a difference. Will you pray TO me. Will you make me your God? How many other people do you pray TO? But you do pray TO Mary. Thus she is your intercessor, your mediator, one that comes between you and God. This is blasphemy. You have made her a god.

Where does the Bible teach that? Why does the Bible have to teach that? Are the pews you sit in, the hymnals you sing from, the pulpit you preach from, the banners you hang from your walls, the crosses you hang in front of your Baptist churches in the Bible some where??

Because the Bible does teach what a candle or light does represent, and you go against that imagery just making it up as you go along. If you are making it up why not start your own religion? You can have your own cult with your own followers. '

Matthew 5:14-16 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

There was a reason that Jesus said this:
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

If you ask the common person, why light the candles they wouldn't know--maybe to give more light.

Big assumption DHK

Try it and see. I go door to door and talk to people. Where I live the area is mostly Catholic. They are Biblically illiterate, and mostly ignorant of their own religion as well.

 

[saturneptune]

No amount of holy water, hail marys, lighted candles, sprinklings, priests in a phone booth, papal authority, talking to lifeless statues of dead sinners, or prayers for the dead are going to change that. There is one mediator and one alone between us and God, and that is Jesus Christ.

Catholics can't talk to lifeless statues (they are forbidden to do so), holy water is a means to remind us of our baptism into Christ, lighting candles does not effect whether or not we have salvation. They are simply a symbol of a prayer. And yes, there is only ONE mediator between us and God and that is Jesus Christ. We confess to God before a priest (how does that scripture go? Oh, confess your sins one to another so that you might be healed). BTW, the Catholic Church teaches that once you die you are either saved or not saved. No amount of praying for someones soul is going to pursuade God to bring you out of hell if that is where you are bound. READ THE CATHECHISM, IT IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR YOU HAVE NOT!

It is pathetic when a Catholic apologist does not know his or her own doctrine.

 

[lori4dogs]

Wow, now I'm a Catholic apologist. I am just an ex-Baptist who found that the history of the Early Church and the writings of the Early Church Fathers were amazingly in line with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. I also find that the majority of Baptist I talk to know almost nothing of the early church (outside the book of Acts) or anything of the Early Church Fathers.

What is pathetic is that you think you DO know Catholic doctrine. You have demonstrated time and time again that you do not. You claim you have read the catechism and yet make absurd statements that suggest you must have skipped reading vast portions of it.

 

[lori4dogs]

DHK, I commend you for going door to door. I don't doubt you run into many Catholics who either don't know the faith they claim or the scriptures that support it. It is not enough to just know what you believe, you need to know why you believe it. But it isn't just Catholics who are ignorant of the scriptures is it?? Plenty of Baptist, Methodist, etc. are nominal at best.

If you are leading people to make a decision for Jesus I don't care what denomination they claim. I fully support you in that and my prayers go with you.

Although I identify myself often as a 'born again Catholic' I do so because it invites conversation. Many people in the area I live equivicate 'born again' with the Ted Haggards, Jimmey Swaggert, and Jim Bakkers of recent years and not with the scriptural mandate that we must be 'born again'. A good book that fully explains our Catholic position on this scriptural mandate is: "Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic" by David B. Currie. Good Reading!

 

[DHK]

DHK, I commend you for going door to door. I don't doubt you run into many Catholics who either don't know the faith they claim or the scriptures that support it. It is not enough to just know what you believe, you need to know why you believe it. But it isn't just Catholics who are ignorant of the scriptures is it?? Plenty of Baptist, Methodist, etc. are nominal at best.

If you are leading people to make a decision for Jesus I don't care what denomination they claim. I fully support you in that and my prayers go with you.

Although I identify myself often as a 'born again Catholic' I do so because it invites conversation. Many people in the area I live equivicate 'born again' with the Ted Haggards, Jimmey Swaggert, and Jim Bakkers of recent years and not with the scriptural mandate that we must be 'born again'. A good book that fully explains our Catholic position on this scriptural mandate is: "Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic" by David B. Currie. Good Reading!

I don't want a book. I have over 2,000 of them!
I want to hear what you believe.
What does it mean to be born again? How is a person born again?

 

[saturneptune]

But it isn't just Catholics who are ignorant of the scriptures is it?? Plenty of Baptist, Methodist, etc. are nominal at best.

The difference is that Baptists, Methodists, etc who are ignorant of the Scriptures are ignorant because of individual laziness. Catholics are ignorant of the Scripture (if that is what you call Catholic writings outside the Inspired Word) because the Catholic Church in all their theological wisdom does not encourage individual Scripture study.

Now, why dont you answer the question, what does it mean to be born again?

 

[saturneptune]

Wow, now I'm a Catholic apologist. I am just an ex-Baptist who found that the history of the Early Church and the writings of the Early Church Fathers were amazingly in line with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. I also find that the majority of Baptist I talk to know almost nothing of the early church (outside the book of Acts) or anything of the Early Church Fathers.

What is pathetic is that you think you DO know Catholic doctrine. You have demonstrated time and time again that you do not. You claim you have read the catechism and yet make absurd statements that suggest you must have skipped reading vast portions of it.

Since your church is so rich in history (a really go foundation for a relationship with the living God), how do you justify calling Peter the first pope, when his writings, doctrine and actions and nothing in common with the baloney coming out of the Vatacin for the past 1500 or so years?