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Question about a Catholic litany

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lori4dogs

New Member
The above is your answer to the following question:
[/i]
It is the second time that you just beat around the bush and avoid answering Biblical questions. Why would that be? Care to try again?

You know and I know that the Church has always interpreted those passages differently than YOU do. No question about it. However, the church has interpreted them the same from the time they were canonized. Before that, there was the oral tradition. I believe Sola Scriptura is not supported by scripture. You are on a slippery slope by trying every aspect of the Christian faith by it and it alone.

Facts are Facts, DHK: We are SAVED through GRACE by FAITH. The Holy Church, Tradition, and Scripture have always affirmed that. No twisting of the scriptures can change that.

My question is this: Is there any other way to salvation except by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

Care to start yet another thread on Sola Scriptura?
 

saturneptune

New Member
So when a Catholic evangelist gives an invitation where countless people make a decision to accept Jesus Christ into there heart and follow him as their Lord and Savior, you are saying they must be lost because they also plan to attend the many Catholic Churches in our area that will encourage and nurture them in Gods Holy Word.

DHK, I'm glad you don't determine who God determines justified. My bible says I'm saved by grace, through faith. The Catholic Church teaches that!
He is not saying that. They could be saved despite the Catholic Church. The evil is the church itself, not those lead to Jesus. Anyway, as you are well aware, there are several "dos" after faith in Jesus before the Catholic Church considers them "finally" saved.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
Here is my challenge to you DHK and all you anti-Catholics. If you are so secure in your beliefs, allow Catholics back on this board to defend themselves.
Do you really buy DHK's assertion that it was just TOP Apologists promoting recruiting Baptists from this board?? PLEASE! I know quite a few of these 'so called' top apologists and they were just common laymen that got sick and tired of the ridiculous statements regarding supposed Catholic teaching. Ideas like that Catholics believe that after death there is 'some kind of reprieve called Purgatory, or that we worship statues, or statements like 'cookie worship', etc. etc.

You told me before you kicked the Catholics off this board and when I said they were having considerable success, you told me that that was 'a bit over the board'. In another post you admitted they had some success but you kicked them off none the less. What are you afraid of? The best discussions ever on these boards were from years ago when you didn't censor non-Baptist doctrines.

I'm really surprised you allow Matt Black to continue posting. There are other Baptist contributors that keep you in line as well. Won't mention there names here because I think you may soon ban them as well.
 

Amy.G

New Member
How does the Catholic church interpret these verses?


Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
He is not saying that. They could be saved despite the Catholic Church. The evil is the church itself, not those lead to Jesus. Anyway, as you are well aware, there are several "dos" after faith in Jesus before the Catholic Church considers them "finally" saved.

They are being saved because the Holy Spirit is working within His Holy Catholic Church/and outside His church (even Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God, etc.) to bring the message of salvation through faith in Christ shed blood on the Cross. Period!
 

saturneptune

New Member
You know and I know that the Church has always interpreted those passages differently than YOU do. No question about it. However, the church has interpreted them the same from the time they were canonized. Before that, there was the oral tradition. I believe Sola Scriptura is not supported by scripture. You are on a slippery slope by trying every aspect of the Christian faith by it and it alone.

Facts are Facts, DHK: We are SAVED through GRACE by FAITH. The Holy Church, Tradition, and Scripture have always affirmed that. No twisting of the scriptures can change that.

My question is this: Is there any other way to salvation except by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

Care to start yet another thread on Sola Scriptura?
First of all the "church" interpreting something is a New Testement church, not your band of thugs. You said the essence of the evil seething from the infrastructure right in the middle of your post when you said "you are on a slippery slope by trying every aspect of the Christian faith of it and it alone." Faith in Jesus Christ is all there is. No amount of holy water, hail marys, lighted candles, sprinklings, priests in a phone booth, papal authority, talking to lifeless statues of dead sinners, or prayers for the dead are going to change that. There is one mediator and one alone between us and God, and that is Jesus Christ. If I did require a mediator, a Catholic priest would be the last choice. That aspect alone makes the Catholic Church a heresey.
 

saturneptune

New Member
They are being saved because the Holy Spirit is working within His Holy Catholic Church/and outside His church (even Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God, etc.) to bring the message of salvation through faith in Christ shed blood on the Cross. Period!
The Lord chose them, the the definition of outside His church is the Catholic Church.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
How does the Catholic church interpret these verses?


Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I'm a born-again Catholic Christian. Washed in the blood of the Lamb. I cling to Romans 10:9 like every Catholic Christian should.
 

saturneptune

New Member
Here is my challenge to you DHK and all you anti-Catholics. If you are so secure in your beliefs, allow Catholics back on this board to defend themselves.
Do you really buy DHK's assertion that it was just TOP Apologists promoting recruiting Baptists from this board?? PLEASE! I know quite a few of these 'so called' top apologists and they were just common laymen that got sick and tired of the ridiculous statements regarding supposed Catholic teaching. Ideas like that Catholics believe that after death there is 'some kind of reprieve called Purgatory, or that we worship statues, or statements like 'cookie worship', etc. etc.

You told me before you kicked the Catholics off this board and when I said they were having considerable success, you told me that that was 'a bit over the board'. In another post you admitted they had some success but you kicked them off none the less. What are you afraid of? The best discussions ever on these boards were from years ago when you didn't censor non-Baptist doctrines.

I'm really surprised you allow Matt Black to continue posting. There are other Baptist contributors that keep you in line as well. Won't mention there names here because I think you may soon ban them as well.
I have a better idea. Give us the address of a Catholic forum or a Catholic apologists forum, your best theological minds, let us on there and we will leave your theology on the ash heaps of history.
 

saturneptune

New Member
I'm a born-again Catholic Christian. Washed in the blood of the Lamb. I cling to Romans 10:9 like every Catholic Christian should.
No one said you were not born again. If you express faith in the Lord Jesus, you are saved by the grace of God. You would not have express faith without the Lord touching you. The Catholic Church is irrelevent in salvation.
 

Amy.G

New Member
I'm a born-again Catholic Christian. Washed in the blood of the Lamb. I cling to Romans 10:9 like every Catholic Christian should.

You didn't answer the question. How does the Catholic church interpret John 3:3 and 3:5?

What does it mean to be born again?

My mother in-law is Catholic and gets mad when someone talks about being born again. She says she doesn't have a clue what that means.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You didn't answer the question. How does the Catholic church interpret John 3:3 and 3:5?

What does it mean to be born again?

My mother in-law is Catholic and gets mad when someone talks about being born again. She says she doesn't have a clue what that means.
It seems that Lori doesn't have a clue what it means either. I have asked her three times now (at least), and I either receive "beat around the bush" answers, or "moderator-bashing," which she should know is against the rules to begin with.

So, Lori, for the umpteenth time, What does it mean to be born again?
I'm not asking if you are born again?
How is a person born again? What does it mean?
 

saturneptune

New Member
It seems that Lori doesn't have a clue what it means either. I have asked her three times now (at least), and I either receive "beat around the bush" answers, or "moderator-bashing," which she should know is against the rules to begin with.

So, Lori, for the umpteenth time, What does it mean to be born again?
I'm not asking if you are born again?
How is a person born again? What does it mean?
Kind of pierces the whole question, doesn't it? This is the exact result of an organization that does not encourage individual reading of Scripture.
 
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Thinkingstuff

Active Member
I totally disagree with both postions on history. Something preserved the NT Church, and it sure was not the Catholic. There is no merit to having a detailed history of evolving evil.

Forget the history for a second. Look at the two churches today. The Catholic Church is totally devoid of anything similiar to the Gospel. The Baptist faith preaches the Gospel of the Bible without any addendums. The contrast is quite clear. Gospel and no Gospel. So, if it was not the Baptist faith of today that carries the banner for the NT church, then which church does? It certainly is not the Catholic.

Sorry to disagree with you. However, history is history and can be verified. On the other hand if we do a comparison I can only speak to my experience. As a child the Catholic Church did not seem to help my spirituality. As a born again baptist my life changed dramatically for the better. However, since that time I've met Catholics that demonstrate a life that resembles how Christ encourages us to live. And I feel that I can fellowship with these. Yet many more seem secular. On the other hand My church is going through problems though I attribute it to human nature. So I can see the same thing happening in Catholic Churches.
 

Agnus_Dei

New Member
You didn't answer the question. How does the Catholic church interpret John 3:3 and 3:5?

What does it mean to be born again?

My mother in-law is Catholic and gets mad when someone talks about being born again. She says she doesn't have a clue what that means.
How many times Amy is the phrase "born again" used in Holy Scripture? Certain Protestant Evangelical communities have adopted this phrase as there own and market the phrase to get people confused regarding their salvation. We only see the phrase used in one chapter of the whole Bible, yet those on Pentecost didn't ask Peter, what they must do to be "born again"...they asked Peter what they must do to be "saved", b/c that's what Peter was preaching on salvation.

Here's my response to the "born again" phrase that I got from when I was in my Orthodox Catechesis class:

When Nicodemus came to Jesus by night, the Lord's first words presented him with a challenge: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a person is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

The Greek adverb translated here as "anew" is anothen, which is deliberately ambivalent. Literally it means "from above," but this expression may be taken in two ways: It can mean "from on high" or "from the top." If the latter sense is understood, the meaning is "anew" or "again." (One thinks of our English idiom, "let's take it again from the top.") That is to say, there are two aspects to this birth: It is new, and it is from on high. Very early John's gospel had spoken of this rebirth: "But to as many as received Him He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (1:12-13).

Nicodemus, in his bewildered response to Jesus' assertion, understands it simply to mean "again": "How can a man be born when he is old? Is he able to enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" (emphasis added) When Jesus answers this question, however, it is the spiritual manner of this rebirth—-the "from above"—-that receives the accent: "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (3:4-6).

In the preaching of John the Baptist, there was a contrast between baptism with water and baptism with the Holy Spirit: "I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit"(Mark 1:8; cf. Matthew 3:11). This contrast is also found in the Fourth Gospel with respect to Baptism: "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes in the Holy Spirit'" (1:32-33).

In the conversation with Nicodemus, however, both aspects of the rebirth are spoken of—-both the water and the Spirit. John clearly has in mind here the theology of Christian baptism. In this Christian mystery, there is no real distinction between baptism in water and baptism in the Holy Spirit. There is only "one Baptism" (cf. Ephesians 4:5).

This double aspect of renewal was already spoken of in prophecy: "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you" (Ezekiel 36:25-27).

Jesus' words to Nicodemus, however, stress the Spirit more than the water, because the gift of the Holy Spirit distinguishes Christian baptism from that of John. Jesus goes on: "What is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again'" (John 3:6). The distinction now is not between water and the Spirit, but between flesh and the Spirit. The flesh is that which dies, whereas the Spirit gives life. Later in John, Jesus says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and life" (6:63).

What, then, does it mean to be reborn in the Spirit? According to Jesus' words, it certainly involves Baptism. Clearly, however, it involves more, as Jesus indicates when He says, "The Spirit breathes where He wills, and you hear His voice, but cannot tell where He comes from and where He goes. Thus is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (3:8).

Our Lord suggests here an incomprehensible mystery involved in man's rebirth. It can be recognized, but it transcends understanding. As the Spirit's activity, man's rebirth cannot be explained. Both its origin and its goal—-"where He comes from and where He goes"—-elude man's scrutiny. Only Jesus Himself can legitimately speak of what the Spirit does: "We speak what We know and testify what We have seen" (3:11). This mystery of man's rebirth, however, can be taken as the implied subject matter of John's whole gospel.

In XC
-
 

Agnus_Dei

New Member
Forget the history for a second. Look at the two churches today. The Catholic Church is totally devoid of anything similiar to the Gospel. The Baptist faith preaches the Gospel of the Bible without any addendums. The contrast is quite clear. Gospel and no Gospel. So, if it was not the Baptist faith of today that carries the banner for the NT church, then which church does? It certainly is not the Catholic.
You can't just "forget" history, to do so you begin making stuff up. Without history, how do YOU know that what the Baptist church preaches today is the gospel that was preached in the first, second and third Centuries? How do YOU know, without history, that your interpretation of Holy Scripture is the same as the Baptist's of the First, Second or Third Centuries? Without history, how can YOU know for certain that your Baptist church today hasn't added any addendums to the Gospel or watered it so far down that your Gospel today is unrecognizable from the Gospel of the Early Church?

So, if it was not the Baptist faith of today that carries the banner for the NT church, then which church does? It certainly is not the Catholic.
I was born and raised a Baptist, was taught that my particular Baptist Church was the NT Church. It wasn't until I got older...married and started a family did I really get serious about my faith. IF the Baptist Church was the NT Church, there had to be record of this in history...there had to have been men who knew the Apostles and wrote of their experiences (and this was without even know who any of the Church Fathers were or even if they existed).

First I searched within the Baptist Church and nothing. As a matter of fact anything earlier than the Reformation really got murky and eventually became all assumptions.

I knew that Roman Catholic Church claimed to be the NT Church, so maybe the Baptist Church misunderstood the RCC, so I investigated the RCC and took a RCIA class to learn more. Almost convinced, but still some hurdles where hard to me to jump regarding a few Catholic dogmas.

I decided to start at the beginning, instead of working my way backwards...Here I eventually discovered the NT Church, the Early Church Fathers, the Apostolic Church Father's the Ecumenical Councils of the Church...the Great Schism, which resulted in the spilt of the Five Patriarchates, when the Patriarchate of Rome became known as the Roman Catholic Church and the other Four became known as the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Here I found the NT Church, and I became an Orthodox Christian 2 years ago, after a 5 year long journey.

In XC
-
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You didn't answer the question. How does the Catholic church interpret John 3:3 and 3:5?

What does it mean to be born again?

My mother in-law is Catholic and gets mad when someone talks about being born again. She says she doesn't have a clue what that means.
Not a Catholic but I think they would say that one is indeed born-again (although this term is only used in this chapter IIRC and also there is an argument for saying that it only pertains to Jews, not Gentiles) if one is a Christian but - and this is where they differ from evangelicals - (v.5) this is both by baptism (water) and faith (the Spirit).

What do you mean by the term and how would you interpret Jn 3:3-5?
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
You didn't answer the question. How does the Catholic church interpret John 3:3 and 3:5?

What does it mean to be born again?

My mother in-law is Catholic and gets mad when someone talks about being born again. She says she doesn't have a clue what that means.

If your seeking information (im not sure) they think they are born again when they are baptized as babies. So, the water does it and the faith of the priest/parents, et.
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
In the preaching of John the Baptist, there was a contrast between baptism with water and baptism with the Holy Spirit: "I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit"(Mark 1:8; cf. Matthew 3:11). This contrast is also found in the Fourth Gospel with respect to Baptism: "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes in the Holy Spirit'" (1:32-33).

In the conversation with Nicodemus, however, both aspects of the rebirth are spoken of—-both the water and the Spirit. John clearly has in mind here the theology of Christian baptism. In this Christian mystery, there is no real distinction between baptism in water and baptism in the Holy Spirit. There is only "one Baptism" (cf. Ephesians 4:5).

This double aspect of renewal was already spoken of in prophecy: "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you" (Ezekiel 36:25-27).

Jesus' words to Nicodemus, however, stress the Spirit more than the water, because the gift of the Holy Spirit distinguishes Christian baptism from that of John. Jesus goes on: "What is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again'" (John 3:6). The distinction now is not between water and the Spirit, but between flesh and the Spirit. The flesh is that which dies, whereas the Spirit gives life. Later in John, Jesus says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and life" (6:63).

What, then, does it mean to be reborn in the Spirit? According to Jesus' words, it certainly involves Baptism. Clearly, however, it involves more, as Jesus indicates when He says, "The Spirit breathes where He wills, and you hear His voice, but cannot tell where He comes from and where He goes. Thus is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (3:8).

Our Lord suggests here an incomprehensible mystery involved in man's rebirth. It can be recognized, but it transcends understanding. As the Spirit's activity, man's rebirth cannot be explained. Both its origin and its goal—-"where He comes from and where He goes"—-elude man's scrutiny. Only Jesus Himself can legitimately speak of what the Spirit does: "We speak what We know and testify what We have seen" (3:11). This mystery of man's rebirth, however, can be taken as the implied subject matter of John's whole gospel.
Water is symbolic, just as "baptism with fire" as appears in Matthew's version. You can see this symbolic/spiritual meaning of water in Eph 5:26.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If your seeking information (im not sure) they think they are born again when they are baptized as babies. So, the water does it and the faith of the priest/parents, et.
Yes, but that faith has to be 'ratified' as it were by the child as s/he grows up. Part of the point of Catholic confirmation is to provide an opportunity for the young adult to express that faith and affirm for him/herself the faith promises made by the parents at baptism.
 
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