Question about Calvinism

[AFJ]

You probably see a lot of philosophy in the position right now (as evidenced by your post), but most after adopting Calvinism don't.

I don’t necessarily think that I am going with philosophy but I am asking a logical question and that is, if God knows that X and Y are going to happen to reach Z, could it happen any other way than X and Y?

Isiah 41:21-24(ESV)
Set forth your case, says the Lord; bring your proofs, says the King of Jacob. Let them bring them, and tell us what is to happen. Tell us the former things, what they are, that we may consider them, that we may know their outcome; or declare to us the things to come. Tell us what is to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods; do good, or do harm, that we may be dismayed and terrified. Behold, you are nothing, and your work is less than nothing; an abomination is he who chooses you.

Basically God is proclaiming that the test of a false god and the true God is that He knows what will happen in the future. There can’t be any possibility of Him being wrong about any moment in time or else He would cease to be God.

 

[DaveXR650]

This is one readon why I believe these discussions are merely philosophical. We can't know the mind of God.

Completely so and I see very little practical value except that it's a comfort to know that God is ultimately in control. But that doesn't mean our road can't get pretty bumpy in the mean time.

 

[DaveXR650]

By your last comment "because he not only is looking into the future but making it so" you are stating Calvinistic determinism and thus making God responsible for all the good or evil that occurs.

Yes, that is what is happening by a logical train of thought. But be careful with making God responsible if you mean more by that than "allowing" or not preventing evil to occur. But you are correct, there are some Calvinists who clearly believe that God is directly causal of evil. I don't and I have reasons for my belief. Now if by "evil" you include calamity and disaster then you simply cannot deny that and still say you read your Bible.

 

[JonC]

I don’t necessarily think that I am going with philosophy but I am asking a logical question and that is, if God knows that X and Y are going to happen to reach Z, could it happen any other way than X and Y?

Isiah 41:21-24(ESV)
Set forth your case, says the Lord; bring your proofs, says the King of Jacob. Let them bring them, and tell us what is to happen. Tell us the former things, what they are, that we may consider them, that we may know their outcome; or declare to us the things to come. Tell us what is to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods; do good, or do harm, that we may be dismayed and terrified. Behold, you are nothing, and your work is less than nothing; an abomination is he who chooses you.

Basically God is proclaiming that the test of a false god and the true God is that He knows what will happen in the future. There can’t be any possibility of Him being wrong about any moment in time or else He would cease to be God.

No. It couldn't happen any other way.

 

[kyredneck]

Pilate that ordered the crucifixion

Pilate didn't 'order' the crucifixion. If anything, he was more likely coerced.

12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this man? or why fasten ye your eyes on us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.
14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3

27 For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. Acts 13

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: Acts 2

24 So when Pilate saw that he prevailed nothing, but rather that a tumult was arising, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this righteous man; see ye to it.
25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Mt 27

 

[AFJ]

No. It couldn't happen any other way.

Since we’re in agreement, let’s take that example and replace “X” with a man named Dan and “Y” with a man named Kevin and “Z” with the final judgement. If God knows what happens at the final judgement and if He knows that Dan is going to Heaven and Kevin is going to Hell, can it happen any other way except that Dan will inevitably be saved and Kevin will inevitably be lost?

 

[kyredneck]

if God knows.... that Dan is going to Heaven and Kevin is going to Heaven or Hell

Why the ambiguity with Kevin? The question doesn't make sense.

 

[JonC]

Since we’re in agreement, let’s take that example and replace “X” with a man named Dan and “Y” with a man named Kevin and “Z” with the final judgement. If God knows what happens at the final judgement and if He knows that Dan is going to Heaven and Kevin is going to Hell, can it happen any other way except that Dan will inevitably be saved and Kevin will inevitably be lost?

No. All things are predestined to occur as God knows they will occur. That is inherent in "omniscience". If they occurred differently then God is not omniscient.

This was Jonathan Edward's argument - that Calvinism and its offshoot (Arminianism) hold the same conclusion about events. They differ on issues of the "mind of God".

 

[AFJ]

Why the ambiguity with Kevin? The question doesn't make sense.

I am using two different individuals in my example. One will be saved and the other will be lost.

 

[AFJ]

If they occurred differently then God is not omniscient.

I agree, so I'm confused as to why you're rejecting my example now. We agreed earlier that if X and Y have to happen to get to Z then it absolutely cannot occur any differently. I only changed the X and the Y to two individuals, one saved and one lost.

 

[kyredneck]

I only changed the X and the Y to two individuals, one saved and one lost.

No, one was saved, and the other was saved or lost - originally...it appears you've edited it so that it now makes sense.

disregard

 

[JonC]

I agree, so I'm confused as to why you're rejecting my example now. We agreed earlier that if X and Y have to happen to get to Z then it absolutely cannot occur any differently. I only changed the X and the Y to two individuals, one saved and one lost.

I'm not rejecting your example. Thus far I agree with you.

 

[JonC]

No, one was saved, and the other was saved or lost - originally...it appears you've edited it to make sense. disregard.

Yea....I was hoping Kevin had a chance too.

 

[AFJ]

Yea....I was hoping Kevin had a chance too.

So would you still agree that Kevin would have to remain lost no matter what because God knows that he will eventually end up in Hell?

 

[Reynolds]

As someone who is not a Calvinist currently, but open to becoming one, I have been presented with a straightfoward question that I have not been able to refute with confidence.

Most Christians will agree that God is all-knowing of future events. Therefore, if God knows every action that I will ever do, can I do anything but what God knows? If I say no, then am I falsifying God's infallible knowledge of the future?

Let me provide a practical example:
Let's say that I hold to a free will position and I confess that God knows what I will have for dinner on Christmas this year. How does God know that? How many free will actions of myself and countless others have to happen to lead to me having dinner on Christmas exactly as God has predicted? Every day between now and Christmas I have to commute 20 miles to my job. If someone exercises their free will, gets drunk, crashes into me and send me Home early before Christmas, has that person's free will now invalidated God's infallible knowledge of the future?

In the past I have said God's knowledge of the future is based on foreknowledge and that He did not necessary determine the future. In other words, when God created time itself, He must have looked down the tunnels of time and, at least temporarily, He was not all-knowing. If God did not determine all events in history, who did? Are they all uncaused? If they are uncaused, how can God have knowledge of them if they are theroetical?

I'll ask my original question again this way. If God knows between now and to the end of time every single person who will ever be saved and who will be lost, can it happen any differently than what God knows or can we exercise our free wills to change the outcome?

Free Will is an illusion. Sin nature, human nature, genetics, and nurture leave no room for true free Will.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, that is what is happening by a logical train of thought. But be careful with making God responsible if you mean more by that than "allowing" or not preventing evil to occur. But you are correct, there are some Calvinists who clearly believe that God is directly causal of evil. I don't and I have reasons for my belief. Now if by "evil" you include calamity and disaster then you simply cannot deny that and still say you read your Bible.

I know that you have said you are a calvinist and yet say you do not agree with divine determinism. But the WCF and the LBCF are clear that God determines all thing so that does not leave you any wiggle room whether you call yourself a calvinist/reformed/PB. So we see that it is your WCF/LBCF that makes God the author of evil not scripture. The calvinist theology does not leave you the option of "allowing" or not preventing evil to occur.

So either the calvinist view is correct or scripture is correct it cannot be both.

As one that does not follow the calvinist theology I can say evil that befalls man can include calamity and disaster because I trust scripture whereas you must deny your stated theology. This is something that I see many calvinists do quite often as they understand the problems their theological view presents.

 

[Silverhair]

Free Will is an illusion. Sin nature, human nature, genetics, and nurture leave no room for true free Will.

If man has no free will then man has no responsibility.

 

[JonC]

So would you still agree that Kevin would have to remain lost no matter what because God knows that he will eventually end up in Hell?

No. Not that "he would have to" but that "he would".

 

[AFJ]

No. Not that "he would have to" but that "he would".

Okay we can say that "he would" remain lost. Logically it follows then that if God has infallible knowledge that he is going to hell, he would remain lost for the rest of his life. Would you agree?

 

[DaveXR650]

I know that you have said you are a calvinist and yet say you do not agree with divine determinism.

I believe that grace can be resisted, and I don't believe in a limited atonement. I also don't believe that God created millions of people for the sole and primary purpose that they would burn in Hell forever. Having said that, if I can still be a Calvinist then I am one.

The calvinist theology does not leave you the option of "allowing" or not preventing evil to occur.

Of course it does. Why would you make such a moronic statement. Don't try to dig through Edwards, that idea can be found in Sproul's little paperback "Chosen by God". If you can't see the difference between God making a man sin and knowing a man will sin and allowing that action to continue to completion then I don't know what to say to you. Sometimes I don't know if you are just pulling my leg or if you really are that dense.

This is something that I see many calvinists do quite often as they understand the problems their theological view presents.

Scripture verses alone can support all the points of the TULIP. At the worst, from scripture they can all be deduced. I do think Calvinism has some flaws that I have mentioned above. I also think Edwards has the best writing on free will if you are interested in such things, which @AFJ seems to be. But I am not encouraging him to become a Calvinist. It has flaws, it can get you in hot water with your local church, and most important of all, it appears to no longer be "cool". It is so 2015! All the cool kids now are leaving the Young, Restless and Reformed for Roman or Eastern Catholicism.