Question for free willers

[npetreley]

You are correct that the quote is not in reference to salvation. But is it not true that God makes one differ from another? Is it not also true that we have nothing that we did not receive from God?

Given that these statements are true (regardless of the context of the quote), then how can anyone claim that the definining attribute which caused them to make the right decision was their own, and not given to them by God?

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Let's get right down to why free willers can't give a straight answer to this question. As far as I can see, there is very limited range of possible answers that support free will.


1. The difference is that I was somehow more inclined to choose rightly than the other person.

Okay, no problem with that one, yet. The problem is when you try to explain WHY you were more inclined.


2a. I made the difference. I had something the other person lacked, whether it be an attitude, knowledge, enlightenment, openness, intelligence, wisdom, etc. This is the only honest answer a free willer can give and still stick with free will. To me be the glory, for I was the turning point of my own salvation.

Unfortunately, the Bible answer to the question "For who made one to differ from another?" is God. So this answer, though honest from the perspective of the free willer, is wrong. When you make the answer right, you end up with election, not free will. If God makes one person differ from another, and that difference is responsible for one person choosing rightly, and another person choosing wrongly, then what you have is salvation by God's election, not by your own free will.


2b. Environment. (I was raised differently, I had different life experiences, etc.)

This basically attributes to "good luck" your condition of being more inclined than the next person. Although I do recall one person claiming this was the case, I don't think the average free willer is about to attribute his or her salvation to having been lucky enough to have grown up in the right environment, having been lucky enough to have lived through the right good or bad experiences that shaped him/her toward being more inclined, etc.

Now, this is palatable if you say that God was in control of your environment and circumstances. That takes the random chance out of it. But if you say that God was in control, then you have said that God chose to make your environment more favorable to the right choice than another person's environment. Once again, that's called salvation by God's election, not by your own free will.

--------------

If you free willers have better answers, I'm dying to hear them.

...or
3. We are not to know the answer to this here on earth, and won't know til we get to Heaven. Do you guys try to figure out EVERYTHING? Just accept that every individual is programmed differently. This doesn't mean God programs men to refuse His Gift, but He draws and reaches each of us using different means in SPITE of how we are programmed.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by webdog:
Just accept that every individual is programmed differently. This doesn't mean God programs men to refuse His Gift, but He draws and reaches each of us using different means in SPITE of how we are programmed.

But then the defining difference comes down to the fact that one is saved and another is not because they are programmed differently. God reaches out to both, but due to the difference in their programming, one responds and another does not.

I don't agree with this, but assuming it is true, who did the programming?

 

[webdog]

But then the defining difference comes down to the fact that one is saved and another is not because they are programmed differently.

No it doesn't. I comes down to the fact that the Gift is presented before you. God doesn't force it upon anybody.

God reaches out to both, but due to the difference in their programming, one responds and another does not.

Not due to differences in programming...differences in their heart and it's condition toward the reaching out.

I don't agree with this, but assuming it is true, who did the programming?

It depends. If it's a sin I commit, is it God? Ultimately when you peel back the layers of calvinism, it is, making God the author of sin. This is false doctrine.

I used to hate broccoli. Did God program me to hate broccoli? If you say yes, you have a problem because a couple years ago I started liking it. Did God decide that He no longer wanted me to hate broccoli and gave me new taste buds? I hardly doubt it. This is God's permissive will...our free will. He allows us to make our own decisions...He doesn't force us...in accordance to His will.

 

[BroShane]

Originally posted by npetreley:
You are correct that the quote is not in reference to salvation. But is it not true that God makes one differ from another?

It depends on what difference you are talking about.

Is it not also true that we have nothing that we did not receive from God?

Again, it depends. If you have a cold, did God give it to you?

Given that these statements are true (regardless of the context of the quote)...

No, context is king here. A text without a context is a pretext. The position you are putting forth here says that just because something is true in one context it must also be true in all contexts. This is not always the case - many times yes, but many times no.

...then how can anyone claim that the definining attribute which caused them to make the right decision was their own, and not given to them by God?

The two parts of your statement do not agree since the first part can not be true. Since the first can not be true, you can not use it to bolster, or to give proof, of the second part of your statement.

Simply, you used this verse out of context, it has no bearing on the discussion.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by BroShane:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
You are correct that the quote is not in reference to salvation. But is it not true that God makes one differ from another?

It depends on what difference you are talking about.

Is it not also true that we have nothing that we did not receive from God?

Again, it depends. If you have a cold, did God give it to you?

Given that these statements are true (regardless of the context of the quote)...

No, context is king here. A text without a context is a pretext. The position you are putting forth here says that just because something is true in one context it must also be true in all contexts. This is not always the case - many times yes, but many times no.

...then how can anyone claim that the definining attribute which caused them to make the right decision was their own, and not given to them by God?

The two parts of your statement do not agree since the first part can not be true. Since the first can not be true, you can not use it to bolster, or to give proof, of the second part of your statement.

Simply, you used this verse out of context, it has no bearing on the discussion. </font>[/QUOTE]So, are you suggesting that it is ok for God to make people differ from one another after they are saved but not before they are saved? Do we somehow lose our free will after we are saved? Your position is silly.

 

[BroShane]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BroShane:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
You are correct that the quote is not in reference to salvation. But is it not true that God makes one differ from another?

It depends on what difference you are talking about.

Is it not also true that we have nothing that we did not receive from God?

Again, it depends. If you have a cold, did God give it to you?

Given that these statements are true (regardless of the context of the quote)...

No, context is king here. A text without a context is a pretext. The position you are putting forth here says that just because something is true in one context it must also be true in all contexts. This is not always the case - many times yes, but many times no.

...then how can anyone claim that the definining attribute which caused them to make the right decision was their own, and not given to them by God?

The two parts of your statement do not agree since the first part can not be true. Since the first can not be true, you can not use it to bolster, or to give proof, of the second part of your statement.

Simply, you used this verse out of context, it has no bearing on the discussion. </font>[/QUOTE]So, are you suggesting that it is ok for God to make people differ from one another after they are saved but not before they are saved? Do we somehow lose our free will after we are saved? Your position is silly. </font>[/QUOTE]What is silly is that my position has not been for or against free will - it has been that the verse used was used out of context and has no bearing on the discussion.

What is silly is that what I wrote can not be read for what it says but, rather, it must have some sinister other meaning.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by BroShane:
Again, it depends. If you have a cold, did God give it to you?

Apples and oranges. In both cases (salvation and the quote) we're talking about our attributes -- intelligence, wisdom, openness, etc. We're not talking about viruses. What attributes do you have that you gave yourself? What attribute do you have that was not given to you by God?

Originally posted by BroShane:
The position you are putting forth here says that just because something is true in one context it must also be true in all contexts. This is not always the case - many times yes, but many times no.

Many times, yes. And in this case, it is yes. Otherwise, show me how it is possible for you to have attributes like intelligence, wisdom, openneess to the Gospel, etc., that you gave yourself and show me how it is you did not receive these things from God.

In other words, instead of quibbling about where the quote came from, answer the questions I posed in the original post.

1. What is it that makes you different from the person who is not saved such that you made the free will choice to accept the Gospel, and he/she made the free will choice not to accept it?

2. Who made the difference?

Or you can continue to dodge these questions by quibbling about the quote.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by webdog:
Not due to differences in programming...differences in their heart and it's condition toward the reaching out.

Okay, first you said the difference was that everyone is programmed differently. Now you've changed your mind and say the difference is the condition of the person's heart.

I won't continue to play this game of "keep switching the reasons until you give up" but I will play it just this once.

Now answer the questions: What was different about the condition of your heart than the condition of the heart of the person who rejected the Gospel?

Who made that difference?

 

[BroShane]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Or you can continue to dodge these questions by quibbling about the quote.

Again, for all those who are having trouble understanding me (perhaps I have yet to make myself clear), my intent was not to take part in beating this dead horse yet another time, but to show the verse was not used correctly. I did so by showing it's context and giving the correct usage for the verse.

So, the verse is my "quibble," not the 10,000th rehash of this debate. The verse was used incorrectly and no amount of trying to change the subject will change that.

It was used wrongly to make a point not borne by the text. It's quite simple.

Many times, yes. And in this case, it is yes. Otherwise, show me how it is possible for you to have attributes like intelligence, wisdom, openneess to the Gospel, etc., that you gave yourself and show me how it is you did not receive these things from God.

Yet another example of expecting me and everyone else to accept what you say simply because you say it. You keep trying to tie these two issues together when they aren't realted. I showed you why it was wrong and used the verses that surround it to show you how it was wrong. But, just because you say it's right (with no scriptural rebuttal), we're supposed to take your word for it and accept a premise that is not borne by the text.

I believe I have made my point (many times over). By continuing to press for me to take part in a debate that I have not entered you have a cozy way of avoiding the issue I raised.

It was wrongly used. Period.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by BroShane:
What is silly is that my position has not been for or against free will - it has been that the verse used was used out of context and has no bearing on the discussion.

What is silly is that what I wrote can not be read for what it says but, rather, it must have some sinister other meaning.

OK, re-reading your posts, maybe I jumped to conclusions. You are right about the context that it is not specifically talking about anything to do with salvation. It is talking to believers who were lifted up in pride because of certain things they had been able to do or believe. And Paul says to them "each man's praise will come from God, for who made you differ from one another?"

My point in my sarcastic questions was that the answer to Paul's question as to who made one Corinthian believer a leader and another a follower, who made one Corinthian believer someone who really understood the Word and another someone who didn't quite get it, is GOD. That is the answer. God did all that.

SO, in relation to this thread, is it ok for God to do that kind of stuff to believers and not ok for Him to do it to unbelievers? That is where I think this verse fits in to the discussion.

 

[Brother Bob]

So God not only predestinated you Calvinists to go to Heaven [personal attack edited]

Maybe you are not predestinated after all but have made a mistake in thinking that you are and really never been anywhere. It is possible, for if God predestinates to go to Heaven or Hell, He also could predestinate some to just think they are going to Heaven when in reality God really predestinated them for Hell.

Just a thought Betcha this will get a response!!!

[ March 28, 2006, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Calvibaptist]

Since you are calling me an idiot, I will assume that God predestined you to do it, so I won't get upset.

 

[Calvibaptist]

I could easily argue that God predestines me to make an idiot of myself occasionally just to keep me humble, which I know I need.

A classic case of God ordaining the ends (my eventual humility) and the means (making an idiot of myself).

 

[Brother Bob]

touche

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I don't know if this answers the question originally posted but maybe it will help in some way.This is my personal testimony.
When I was a young person I went to church,mostly a Free Methodist church and a Bible church.I remember many Sundays the preacher would preach,the alter call would come,I would be so deeply convicted I would be in tears while gripping the pew in front of me as hard as I could to keep from going forward,which I did'nt.As time went by my family fell apart,my father and mother divorced everything I saw convinced me if there was a god this god was not kind or loving and was only out to get me.I joined the army went to nma and all of the usual places soldiers go but more then that my heart became so hardened through bad living and my education (I went to a lot of night school Uof Md,LACC,USAFI,AND CLEP, if God was so smart why did'nt he come to guys like me for some wise counsel.I became as close to a full blown athiest as it is possible to get.I was the sinners sinner.I am not proud today how I lived my life then.

One night in February of 1978 I went to bed cold sober and went to sleep.While asleep a voice came to me with a picture who said ,"This is my Son you can believe in Him".That woke me straight up.It was as real as the computer I am sending this message to you on.You may be one of those people that don't believe things like that happen,I am here to tell you things like that do happen.I knew right then and there God was making Himself REAL to me.I knew that I had led such a reprobate life that if I did'nt do something right then and there that God was going to let me go my own way.I knew right then that there was a God,a heaven,a hell and it was my time to make a choice.At that momment I believed in God,I believed Jesus Christ was His Son but satan and his angels know that much.The question is what was I going to do now that I knew straight from God Himself.I chose Jesus,I got on my knees and asked Christ in my heart as best as I could.It took me three weeks before I could talk to anybody about what had happened to me.I believe to this day God made Himself real to me and left the choice as to what to do about it up to me.When God makes Himself real to us the choice is ours heaven or hell.

The difference between me and Ted Turner is I have already made my choice.I am hoping Ted has not made his final choice yet,as far as I know his life on earth is not over yet.

 

[npetreley]

One night in February of 1978 I went to bed cold sober and went to sleep.While asleep a voice came to me with a picture who said, "This is my Son you can believe in Him". That woke me straight up. It was as real as the computer I am sending this message to you on. You may be one of those people that don't believe things like that happen, I am here to tell you things like that do happen. I knew right then and there God was making Himself REAL to me.

God did what? He made Himself real to you? Think about what it is you're saying. I know very well that these things happen, by the way.

The difference between me and Ted Turner is I have already made my choice.

Is that really the difference? What if God gave Ted Turner a special revelation like He did for you? Do you think that would make a difference? I am not pretending to have the answer to that question, but it's worth asking if you want to figure out how to answer MY questions.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

First part, of course I have given much thought about what happened to me.I have thought about it for over 30 years.God did not say 6to me now that you know I am real you have no choice but to accept my Son as your Savior.At that time as well as now I felt that it was either accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior or He would not bother with me again,I would literally be left to my reprobate mind.However you may notice the choice was mine to make.The choice was given by God.I am a whosoever will.

As to Ted Turner you may be right but I sure hope not. I have prayed for him from time to time.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
Not due to differences in programming...differences in their heart and it's condition toward the reaching out.

Okay, first you said the difference was that everyone is programmed differently. Now you've changed your mind and say the difference is the condition of the person's heart.

I won't continue to play this game of "keep switching the reasons until you give up" but I will play it just this once.

Now answer the questions: What was different about the condition of your heart than the condition of the heart of the person who rejected the Gospel?

Who made that difference? </font>[/QUOTE]The difference is obvious that he is a better person than Ted Turner, and always has been. He, therefore, has much to brag about his salvation since it was he who made all the difference in his own salvation.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Calvibaptist]

I am a Calvinist. I believe that God chose me before the foundation of the world because this is what the Bible says.

My experience, as much as I can remember it, is that I chose Him. I recognized my sinfulness because someone told me I was a sinner and I knew it from my experience. I didn't want to go to hell to burn forever. So I pled with God to forgive me and "asked Jesus into my heart."

This is my experience. Now that I am a believer, I read the Bible and it tells me that I am one of the elect and that God chose me as a vessel of mercy to the praise of the glory of His grace. I take my experience and I put it along side the Bible and see they both peacably coexist.