Rev. Lowery
New Member
BTW its not a contridiction we are just to dumb to see it the way God does.
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Question for free willers
- Thread starter npetreley
- Start date
I don't think a lot of folks have considered all the factors, especially "Law/Justice",
God's law and Jesus death for all sin, "REQUIRES" God to honor the "LAW and "EVERY SIN" Jesus died for, plus God's personal will that none should perish, to give at least "ONE CALL" to every human.
And God is "FAITHFUL" to keep his word, man is the "problem" in the effort to save all men, not God.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
If God "changes their will", then why are many called but only a few respond??</font>[/QUOTE]I think you changed the verse a little. It doesn't say that only a few respond, it says:
Matthew 22
Joseph Botwinick
If God "changes their will", then why are many called but only a few respond??</font>[/QUOTE]I think you changed the verse a little. It doesn't say that only a few respond, it says:
Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Doesn't make any difference how you slice it,
If God doesn't give the faith to change the will of those who perish,
and does give faith to those who are saved,
then God is working "AGAINST" his stated will that not any should perish.
the evidence is that the required faith "IS NOT" the result of "God's will", but man will to chose whom he will believe/Serve.
OK, re-reading your posts, maybe I jumped to conclusions. You are right about the context that it is not specifically talking about anything to do with salvation. It is talking to believers who were lifted up in pride because of certain things they had been able to do or believe. And Paul says to them "each man's praise will come from God, for who made you differ from one another?"
My point in my sarcastic questions was that the answer to Paul's question as to who made one Corinthian believer a leader and another a follower, who made one Corinthian believer someone who really understood the Word and another someone who didn't quite get it, is GOD. That is the answer. God did all that.
SO, in relation to this thread, is it ok for God to do that kind of stuff to believers and not ok for Him to do it to unbelievers? That is where I think this verse fits in to the discussion. </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you, I appreciate it.
In relation to the thread, I have no interest in taking part.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
If God "changes their will", then why are many called but only a few respond??</font>[/QUOTE]I think you changed the verse a little. It doesn't say that only a few respond, it says:
Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Doesn't make any difference how you slice it,
If God doesn't give the faith to change the will of those who perish,
and does give faith to those who are saved,
then God is working "AGAINST" his stated will that not any should perish.
the evidence is that the required faith "IS NOT" the result of "God's will", but man will to chose whom he will believe/Serve. </font>[/QUOTE]You don't like the word "Chosen" in that verse, do you?
Joseph Botwinick
But you can't get to the "CHOSEN" unless you "BELEIVE".Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
You don't like the word "Chosen" in that verse, do you?
Joseph Botwinick [/QB]
FAITH in Jesus "preceeds" everything else.
God calls all to be chosen, but all isn't "Chosen", against the stated will of God that all be "Chosen".
You can't cross a bridge until you get to it.
Rev. Lowery
New Member
I didn't say the Bible supports both views well, only that it supports..........for those that look hard the Bible can support almost anything if you try to apply your own fallible views on it.
Its spiritually cold at the extremes of the 2 side I prefer to stay in the warm center of Gods Grace, Mercy, and Love.
And to the OP no one will be able to answer your question to your liking unless they agree with you.
Can two people walk together and not be in agreement? Can the Christian community win souls for Christ ........Oh wait there's no point in anything cause if its meant for you to be saved you will be.......*sarcasm*
Its spiritually cold at the extremes of the 2 side I prefer to stay in the warm center of Gods Grace, Mercy, and Love.
And to the OP no one will be able to answer your question to your liking unless they agree with you.
Can two people walk together and not be in agreement? Can the Christian community win souls for Christ ........Oh wait there's no point in anything cause if its meant for you to be saved you will be.......*sarcasm*
1. What is the difference between you and the unbeliever such that you chose to trust Christ and the unbeliever did not?
Love of the Truth and believing the promises of God by which He drew me into faith freely by the circumstances He allowed.
2. Who made that difference?
God gave every man the measure of faith and the freedom to seek Him with a promise of salvation and love of all; it’s not that difficult for one to know Him if you ask. God in His grace allowed us a choice- read the verse very carefully and think about your wind of doctrine (Eph 4:14) :
(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.
Happy now?
P.S.
(Luk 14:11) For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Brother Bob
New Member
Benjamin:
I am afraid you will get a negative answer for there are those that will never be satisfied. He has received the answer several times but keeps saying
quote:
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Originally posted by npetreley:
Was I right, or was I right? 6 pages and still not a single straight answer from the free willers.
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hoping he will make us mad enough to say something Calvinistist.
His OP says a lot about this Post and what he already thinks of us and will continue to do so. This is not about trying to reason with one another, it is about trying to convert us to their way of thinking which will never work.
I am afraid you will get a negative answer for there are those that will never be satisfied. He has received the answer several times but keeps saying
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by npetreley:
Was I right, or was I right? 6 pages and still not a single straight answer from the free willers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hoping he will make us mad enough to say something Calvinistist.
His OP says a lot about this Post and what he already thinks of us and will continue to do so. This is not about trying to reason with one another, it is about trying to convert us to their way of thinking which will never work.
In the sense that God "Foreknew" everything that is going to happen, it might as well be "predestine", because it is going to occur,
On the other hand, it's going to occur as the results of man reaping what he sowed through his actions, God's not responsible for man's sin or his belief/unbelief.
So the future is not "set in stone", for the world or any person, "Foreknowledge" can change as demonstrated in the OT, destroying Israel making a nation from Moses.
If the world/man was "predestine" then the will of God that none should perish would have "ENDED" with the writing of the "lamb's book",
man could not and would not be held "accountable" for any of his actions from that point forward, but we know that he is, so evidently, the names were written based on "Foreknowledge" of man's actions rather than "God's predestination".
God's will for none to perish and man's responsibility still exist today, predestination would have ended both.
IT IS, BUT IT AINT is a little "PRINCIPLE" of understanding scripture that few have "mastered".
"IT IS" "TRUE" that God knows the future,
BUT IT AINT "TRUE" God predestined that future and it can't be changed.
The "PATH" is "NARROW", but either side you step off, you're still "off the path".
Why do you have a love of truth but another person doesn't? You haven't really answered the question. You told me why YOU chose to trust Christ, but you didn't explain why the other person didn't. I will have to assume from your answer that the other person does not have a love of truth.
Your answer here does not address my questions. In the first place, in this second answer, you're saying there is no difference, which is not an answer to the question "who made the difference"?
In the second place, you didn't fully answer the first question, so your qualification of who made the difference doesn't have anything to do with the first answer.
So let's try this again.
Either change your first answer, or let's assume that your answer is that the difference is that you have a love of truth but another person does not.
If this is not your answer, qualify your answer to the first, and then answer the second.
Who made that difference? Given that my assumption for your first answer is correct, who gave you the (greater?) love of truth that the other man lacks?
Calvibaptist
New Member
I haven't read the last two pages of this thread yet. I will after I respond here, and will probably find that this answer has already been given.
Romans 9 is all about salvation. Paul ends Romans 8 by saying that nothing can separate God's elect (his words, not mine) from the love of Christ. We are eternally secure because of the promise of God.
The whole reason that Romans 9 follows after Romans 8 is because what Paul has just said about our security and God's faithfulness is called into question by the fact that a majority of Jews have rejected the Messiah and are (IMPORTANT - PAY ATTENTION) unsaved. So Paul asks the question of how the Jews being unsaved fits in with God's faithfulness to His Word.
The answer? God never promised that every physical descendant of Abraham would receive salvation. But notice that Paul doesn't then go into a big treatise on faith, personal choice, and free-will. He goes into an entire chapter-long discussion about God's sovereign choice, using different illustrations to show that God has the right to choose some and not others.
Now, while none of these stories, in and of themselves, seem to relate to salvation in their Old Testament context, that is exactly what Paul uses them to talk about in the context of Romans 9. If they do not relate to salvation, then there was no need for Paul to write verses 1-5. Pay attention to those verses. They form the basis for the stories Paul refers to, to see why he uses them. He is definitely talking about individual salvation.
Calvibaptist
New Member
You keep talking about "Calvin's doctrine of "SOME" being predestined" as if the words election and predestination are not in the Scriptures. I challenge you to do a word study on those words and see that they are not something Calvin made up, but plainly taught in the Scriptures.
Calvibaptist
New Member
1. What is the difference between you and the unbeliever such that you chose to trust Christ and the unbeliever did not?
Love of the Truth and believing the promises of God by which He drew me into faith freely by the circumstances He allowed.
2. Who made that difference?
God gave every man the measure of faith and the freedom to seek Him with a promise of salvation and love of all; it’s not that difficult for one to know Him if you ask. God in His grace allowed us a choice- read the verse very carefully and think about your wind of doctrine (Eph 4:14) :
(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.
Happy now?
P.S.
(Luk 14:11) For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. </font>[/QUOTE]You guys are hilarious. Calvinists don't say you do nothing. YOU must repent and believe in order to be saved. We all agree to that, so stop saying Calvinists believe you do nothing.
What we are looking for is the ultimate cause of YOU repenting and believing and someone else not repenting and believing. We believe the Bible says it is God. Because of your view of free-will, you must say that you believe it is something in that person that ultimately caused them to repent and believe. That gives man the credit for salvation. That is the problem we have with your view.
Calvibaptist
New Member
Now you're getting somewhere...
How can something future occur as the results of a man who doesn't yet exist doing something? Does that person go back in time and do something so that the future event can occur?
I'm sorry, but the Bible disagrees with you and other people who espouse this view called Open Theism.
Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
It doesn't sound to me like the God who described Himself to Isaiah had any problem with a changing future. He declared the end from the beginning. He declared from ancient times things that are not yet done. He says, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure."
This is the sovereign God of Calvinists. If you don't like it, you have a problem with Him.
Let me ask you a question: Does God desire that all men would be saved? Your answer is yes. So, taking that in accord with the last verse I quoted where God says He does ALL His pleasure, why aren't all men saved? The answer - God hasn't set up a system whereby all men will be saved. He hasn't decreed it.
We all believe this unless we are universalists. The only remaining question is "why aren't all men saved?" Your answer - free-will. My answer - the sovereignty of God. Either way, your little argument about God not being willing that any should perish causes your view just as many problems as you think it causes ours.
Unbiblical reasoning
And yet, somehow the Bible talks about both...
And I just showed you a verse in Isaiah that says that God did predestine the future. How can you suggest that God didn't predestine the future when the Bible uses the word predestine? What about the cross? That happened according to the forordination of God.
Acts 2:22-23 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know -- 23 "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
How could prophets ever give predictions if the future could change based on man's free-will decisions? God would have no control over the future, man would.
CHEAT SHEET:
Okay, people have provided what they think are answers. I don't question their sincerity. I believe they are sincere in their responses. When someone says something like "the difference is that I love the truth and the other person doesn't" I think that's a valid answer. But then you notice that the person doesn't answer the second question in accordance with the first. Who made the difference such that you would love the truth and the other person doesn't?
You could answer, "I prefer the truth and the other person doesn't." Again, a valid answer. But then you have to answer the question, who made the difference such that you prefer the truth and the other person doesn't?
So here's a very simple cheat sheet for free willers that gets right to the heart of the issue and answers the questions with the true answers:
Q1. Why did you choose to accept the Gospel and another person reject it?
A1. Because we are different.
Q2. Who made the difference?
A2. God.
Okay, people have provided what they think are answers. I don't question their sincerity. I believe they are sincere in their responses. When someone says something like "the difference is that I love the truth and the other person doesn't" I think that's a valid answer. But then you notice that the person doesn't answer the second question in accordance with the first. Who made the difference such that you would love the truth and the other person doesn't?
You could answer, "I prefer the truth and the other person doesn't." Again, a valid answer. But then you have to answer the question, who made the difference such that you prefer the truth and the other person doesn't?
So here's a very simple cheat sheet for free willers that gets right to the heart of the issue and answers the questions with the true answers:
Q1. Why did you choose to accept the Gospel and another person reject it?
A1. Because we are different.
Q2. Who made the difference?
A2. God.
Calvibaptist
New Member
Is that what you were looking for? You could have saved us all a lot of trouble (and 7 pages of posting) if you would have just given out the answers first!