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Question to consider
- Thread starter glad4mercy
- Start date
glad4mercy
Active Member
The sheep are the elect of God, while the goats are those still lost in their sins!
So to be a goat means you are still lost in your sins. Are they lost in their sins because of their will or because of God's will?
glad4mercy
Active Member
Thank you for the link. I have tremendous respect for Mr. Sproul. But Ultimacy doesn't mean two things happen in exactly the same manner. Equal Ultimacy ( if we correctly define ultimacy) means that that outcomes are equally certain, which you believe. I always wonder why some Calvinists claim the don't believe in equal Ultimacy when their definition of the words is inaccurate.
glad4mercy
Active Member
So to be a goat means you are still lost in your sins. Are they lost in their sins because of their will or because of God's will?
Is a reprobate doing God's will by rejecting Jesus and perishing?
Where you doing the will of God by believing in Jesus?Is a reprobate doing God's will by rejecting Jesus and perishing?
The lost will keep on rejecting Jesus to save them, as that is per their very natures to do such, is not their outcome certain and ultimate then?Thank you for the link. I have tremendous respect for Mr. Sproul. But Ultimacy doesn't mean two things happen in exactly the same manner. Equal Ultimacy ( if we correctly define ultimacy) means that that outcomes are equally certain, which you believe. I always wonder why some Calvinists claim the don't believe in equal Ultimacy when their definition of the words is inaccurate.
glad4mercy
Active Member
Where you doing the will of God by believing in Jesus?
Yes. That doesn't answer my question though.
glad4mercy
Active Member
The lost will keep on rejecting Jesus to save them, as that is per their very natures to do such, is not their outcome certain and ultimate then?
It is certain in the mind of God who foreknows all things, but it is contingent in time, for He said unless you repent, you will likewise perish and these things I say to you that you might believe.
It is against our fallen nature to trust and love Jesus. But what is impossible with man is possible with God.
God is able to save anyone, but He chooses to save those who believe, and He does not save them against their will. But the Grace changes many wills.
glad4mercy
Active Member
I guess there is only one question left, at least that I can think
of.
If the Gospel call goes out to all, and powerful grace is extended to all,why doesn't everyone come?
Listen to what the scripture says.
So then God mercies whom He will and whom He will He hardens...
What does this passage say? Does it say that they were unable to respond to God's grace because they are children of Adam excluded from God and rejected before they were born?
No. It says they are hardened. (Passive verb receiving the action of hardening)
If it was just a matter of their nature in Adam, WHAT NEED WOULD THERE be FOR GOD TO HARDEN THEM.
This is not a hardness based on Adam. This is a judicial hardness based on their own unbelief. Look at all the passages in the Bible about judicial hardness
For the apostle said the Gentiles obtained righteousness without seeking while the unbelieving Jews did not obtain righteousness for the simple reason that they did not attain it through faith
So they were not rejected because God excluded them before they were born. They were rejected because they stumbled at the rock of offense and sought justification by works of the Law instead of faith.
The whole point of Romans in the first place. Justified by faith not Law.
And you Calvinists take the Jacob/Esau passage to teach UE. But that is not Paul's point. Jacob represents those of faith and Esau represents those who strive for Law righteousness
A similar analogy as the one Paul uses in Galatians with Isaac and Ishmael
That is why the apostle said it is not based on works or what one does, or how hard he runs
This way it fits the flow of the book.
of.
If the Gospel call goes out to all, and powerful grace is extended to all,why doesn't everyone come?
Listen to what the scripture says.
So then God mercies whom He will and whom He will He hardens...
What does this passage say? Does it say that they were unable to respond to God's grace because they are children of Adam excluded from God and rejected before they were born?
No. It says they are hardened. (Passive verb receiving the action of hardening)
If it was just a matter of their nature in Adam, WHAT NEED WOULD THERE be FOR GOD TO HARDEN THEM.
This is not a hardness based on Adam. This is a judicial hardness based on their own unbelief. Look at all the passages in the Bible about judicial hardness
For the apostle said the Gentiles obtained righteousness without seeking while the unbelieving Jews did not obtain righteousness for the simple reason that they did not attain it through faith
So they were not rejected because God excluded them before they were born. They were rejected because they stumbled at the rock of offense and sought justification by works of the Law instead of faith.
The whole point of Romans in the first place. Justified by faith not Law.
And you Calvinists take the Jacob/Esau passage to teach UE. But that is not Paul's point. Jacob represents those of faith and Esau represents those who strive for Law righteousness
A similar analogy as the one Paul uses in Galatians with Isaac and Ishmael
That is why the apostle said it is not based on works or what one does, or how hard he runs
This way it fits the flow of the book.
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He grants anew heart/mind to those whom Jesus died for, and who died in their stead and took on their sin debt/penalty in full.It is certain in the mind of God who foreknows all things, but it is contingent in time, for He said unless you repent, you will likewise perish and these things I say to you that you might believe.
It is against our fallen nature to trust and love Jesus. But what is impossible with man is possible with God.
God is able to save anyone, but He chooses to save those who believe, and He does not save them against their will. But the Grace changes many wills.
Pharaoh was already hard against God, and the Lord just continued to harden Him still further, to use Him in order to show of his mighty works with Israel!I guess there is only one question left, at least that I can think
of. If the Gospel call goes out to all, why are some unable to come. Listen to what the scripture says.
So then God mercies whom He will and whom He will He hardens...
What does this passage say? Does it say that they were unable to respond to God's grace because they are children of Adam excluded from God and rejected before they were born?
No. It says they are hardened.
If it was just a matter of their nature in Adam, WHAT NEED WOULD THERE be FOR GOD TO HARDEN THEM.
This is not a hardness based on Adam. This is a judicial hardness based on their own unbelief.
For the apostle said the Gentiles obtained righteousness without seeking while the unbelieving Jews did not obtain righteousness for the simple reason that they did not attain it through faith
So they were not rejected because God excluded them before they were born. They were rejected because they stumbled at the rock of offense and sought justification by works of the Law instead of faith.
The whole point of Romans in the first place. Justified by faith not Law.
And you Calvinists take the Jacob/Esau passage to teach UE. But that is not Paul's point. Jacob represents those of faith and Esau represents those who strive for Law righteousness
That is why the apostle said it is not based on works or what one does, or how hard he runs
This way it fits the flow of the book.
glad4mercy
Active Member
Pharaoh was already hard against God, and the Lord just continued to harden Him still further, to use Him in order to show of his mighty works with Israel!
Is Adam to blame for Pharoah's hardness or is Pharoah. Let's not make excuses for Pharoah. Remember, Jesus said that if Sodom and Gomorrah had seen His miracles, they would have repented. Why are some more hardened than others, being all children of Adam? Hardening caused by THEIR own actions, not Adams.
So some are mercied and some are hardened. But the ones who are hardened are the reason for the judgement of hardening.
Sodom was not even as hard as some of the religious leaders of that day. What does that tell you? Here's what it tells me. To Him who has will more be given, but to him that doesn't, even what he has Will be taken away.
glad4mercy
Active Member
He grants anew heart/mind to those whom Jesus died for, and who died in their stead and took on their sin debt/penalty in full.
Jesus said Sodom would have repented if they had seen His miracles. So what does that tell you human inability. It tells me that God's grace trumps human inability except when certain degrees of hardness is added to natural inability
And the degree of hardness is not Adams blame. Ok, blame moral inability apart from grace on the Fall, but the hardness that rejects the grace of God is ones own doing
That's why God had to smash and crush some of us to get our attention, reminds me of Jonah
Jesus stated that God fulfilled prophecy, by making sure the Jews would not have their eyes and minds opened to Him, as they ere deaf and dumb to His parables. correct?Is Adam to blame for Pharoah's hardness or is Pharoah. Let's not make excuses for Pharoah. Remember, Jesus said that if Sodom and Gomorrah had seen His miracles, they would have repented. Why are some more hardened than others, being all children of Adam? Hardening caused by THEIR own actions, not Adams.
So some are mercied and some are hardened. But the ones who are hardened are the reason for the judgement of hardening.
Sodom was not even as hard as some of the religious leaders of that day. What does that tell you? Here's what it tells me. To Him who has will more be given, but to him that doesn't, even what he has Will be taken away.
All of us are spiritual dead in our sin natures, so dead is dead.Jesus said Sodom would have repented if they had seen His miracles. So what does that tell you human inability. It tells me that God's grace trumps human inability except when certain degrees of hardness is added to natural inability
And the degree of hardness is not Adams blame. Ok, blame moral inability apart from grace on the Fall, but the hardness that rejects the grace of God is ones own doing
That's why God had to smash and crush some of us to get our attention, reminds me of Jonah
glad4mercy
Active Member
Yes. Was this hardness caused by Adam
Yes. Was this hardness caused by Adam and the Fallor was it the result of something else in addition?
,
Jesus stated that God fulfilled prophecy, by making sure the Jews would not have their eyes and minds opened to Him, as they ere deaf and dumb to His parables. correct?
Yes. Was this hardness caused by Adam and the Fallor was it the result of something else in addition?
,
glad4mercy
Active Member
All of us are spiritual dead in our sin natures, so dead is dead.
What is the biblical definition of spiritual death?
From what I read, it is relational seperation from God that results in dead works and sin. Are you denying that there are degrees of hardness and receptivity in sinners?
Go to a place where they have never heard the Gospel and compare it to people who have heard the Gospel a billion times and rejected it. Do you think there will be a difference between them, or are they all equally hardened, being dead?
The Lord did not permit them to get out of their hardened self inflicted states...Yes. Was this hardness caused by Adam
Yes. Was this hardness caused by Adam and the Fallor was it the result of something else in addition?
,
glad4mercy
Active Member
But what made them
But was the increasing hardness because of Adam or because of their own doings? Were they born hardened or did they become hardened?
Don't get me wrong. God can save anyone, no matter how hard. But sometimes hardness is a judgement because of what you did, not what someone else did
The Lord did not permit them to get out of their hardened self inflicted states...
But was the increasing hardness because of Adam or because of their own doings? Were they born hardened or did they become hardened?
Don't get me wrong. God can save anyone, no matter how hard. But sometimes hardness is a judgement because of what you did, not what someone else did
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All of them would be in the same boat, as those who are spiritual dead will be rejecting Jesus as the Savior. There will degrees of punishment though,a s God is fair and Just in all of His decisions!What is the biblical definition of spiritual death?
From what I read, it is relational seperation from God that results in dead works and sin. Are you denying that there are degrees of hardness and receptivity in sinners?
Go to a place where they have never heard the Gospel and compare it to people who have heard the Gospel a billion times and rejected it. Do you think there will be a difference between them, or are they all equally hardened, being dead?