Question to consider

[Joel.alexander]

QUOTE="glad4mercy, post: 2415773, member: 12954"]It was up to Shem, Ham, and Japheth to pass down the knowledge to their children, who in turn pass it down to their children, down the line. But man ended up corrupting the knowledge and choosing to serve the creature rather than the Creator.

It's just like today. If we don't teach our children, our grandchildren or great grandchildren may grow up in a dark place. And if we dont carry the gospel to the world, many people will not have a preacher to hear.

Nevertheless, they had natural revelation which they suppressed, so they are without excuse. Everyone receives a measure of light that they reject, and the lost will be judged accordingly[/QUOTE]
Good answer.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Yes, anyone who perishes does not perish because God willed it, but rather because they themselves willed it.

I do not believe in double predestination.

What you believe and what the Bible says are two different things.

The Bible teaches that the elect are chosen before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Can you produce the verse(s) where the Bible says people have free will unto salvation?

 

[atpollard]

On what basis does God damn sinners? Please provide scriptural citations for your answer. This question is a challenge to all Calvinists.

John 3:16-20 NASB

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.​

WHY DOES HE 'NOT BELIEVE'?

John 10:26-31 NASB

26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

(Only His Sheep hear and follow and obtain eternal life. Some do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep.)​

John 6:43-44 NASB

43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

(It is the FATHER who chooses His sheep by drawing them to Jesus.)​

Romans 10:8-10 NASB

8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

(It is the condition of the heart that seperates those who believe from those who don't believe.)​

Ezekiel 36:26 NASB

“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

(It is GOD who provides the new heart ... removing the dead 'heart of stone' and giving a living 'heart of flesh'.)​

Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

(The faith to believe that God raised Christ from the dead is a gift from God. Those to whom it is given, are His Sheep.)​

 

[glad4mercy]

What you believe and what the Bible says are two different things.

The Bible teaches that the elect are chosen before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Can you produce the verse(s) where the Bible says people have free will unto salvation?

What you believe and what the Bible says are two different things.

The Bible teaches that the elect are chosen before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Can you produce the verse(s) where the Bible says people have free will unto salvation?

You gave good verses for election ( which I believe in), but not for double predestination. And I NEVER argued for free will unto salvation. No one comes to Jesus apart from the pre-faith work of the Father through the Holy Spirit

 

[glad4mercy]

John 3:16-20 NASB

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.​

WHY DOES HE 'NOT BELIEVE'?

John 10:26-31 NASB

26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

(Only His Sheep hear and follow and obtain eternal life. Some do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep.)​

John 6:43-44 NASB

43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

(It is the FATHER who chooses His sheep by drawing them to Jesus.)​

Romans 10:8-10 NASB

8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

(It is the condition of the heart that seperates those who believe from those who don't believe.)​

Ezekiel 36:26 NASB

“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

(It is GOD who provides the new heart ... removing the dead 'heart of stone' and giving a living 'heart of flesh'.)​

Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

(The faith to believe that God raised Christ from the dead is a gift from God. Those to whom it is given, are His Sheep.)​

would you mind doing a brief exegesis of John 3:21 for me? I may have something to show you.

 

[atpollard]

would you mind doing a brief exegesis of John 3:21 for me? I may have something to show you.

That seems to be moving pretty far afield of the request you made to all Calvinists, but sure ...

John 3:21 NASB

21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”​

Matthew Henry Commentary on John 3:21

• Secondly, On the other hand, upright hearts, that approve themselves to God in their integrity, bid this light welcome (v. 21): He that doeth truth cometh to the light. It seems, then, that though the gospel had many enemies it had some friends. It is a common observation that truth seeks no corners. Those who mean and act honestly dread not a scrutiny, but desire it rather. Now this is applicable to the gospel light; as it convinces and terrifies evil-doers, so it confirms and comforts those that walk in their integrity. Observe here,
  • 1. The character of a good man.
    • (1.) He is one that doeth truth; that is, he acts truly and sincerely in all he does. Though sometimes he comes short of doing good, the good he would do, yet he doeth truth, he aims honestly; he has his infirmities, but holds fast his integrity; as Gaius, that did faithfully (3 Jn. 5), as Paul (2 Co. 1:12), as Nathanael (ch. 1:47), as Asa, 1 Ki. 15:14.
    • (2.) He is one that cometh to the light. He is ready to receive and entertain divine revelation as far as it appears to him to be so, what uneasiness soever it may create him. He that doeth truth is willing to know the truth by himself, and to have his deeds made manifest. A good man is much employed in trying himself, and is desirous that God would try him, Ps. 26:2. He is solicitous to know what the will of God is, and resolves to do it, though ever so contrary to his own will and interest.
  • 2. Here is the character of a good work: it is wrought in God, in union with him by a covenanting faith, and in communion with him by devout affections. Our works are then good, and will bear the test, when the will of God is the rule of them and the glory of God the end of them; when they are done in his strength, and for his sake, to him, and not to men; and if, by the light of the gospel, it be manifest to us that our works are thus wrought, then shall we have rejoicing, Gal. 6:4; 2 Co. 1:12.

 

[glad4mercy]

That seems to be moving pretty far afield of the request you made to all Calvinists, but sure ...

John 3:21 NASB

21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”​

Matthew Henry Commentary on John 3:21

• Secondly, On the other hand, upright hearts, that approve themselves to God in their integrity, bid this light welcome (v. 21): He that doeth truth cometh to the light. It seems, then, that though the gospel had many enemies it had some friends. It is a common observation that truth seeks no corners. Those who mean and act honestly dread not a scrutiny, but desire it rather. Now this is applicable to the gospel light; as it convinces and terrifies evil-doers, so it confirms and comforts those that walk in their integrity. Observe here,
  • 1. The character of a good man.
    • (1.) He is one that doeth truth; that is, he acts truly and sincerely in all he does. Though sometimes he comes short of doing good, the good he would do, yet he doeth truth, he aims honestly; he has his infirmities, but holds fast his integrity; as Gaius, that did faithfully (3 Jn. 5), as Paul (2 Co. 1:12), as Nathanael (ch. 1:47), as Asa, 1 Ki. 15:14.
    • (2.) He is one that cometh to the light. He is ready to receive and entertain divine revelation as far as it appears to him to be so, what uneasiness soever it may create him. He that doeth truth is willing to know the truth by himself, and to have his deeds made manifest. A good man is much employed in trying himself, and is desirous that God would try him, Ps. 26:2. He is solicitous to know what the will of God is, and resolves to do it, though ever so contrary to his own will and interest.
  • 2. Here is the character of a good work: it is wrought in God, in union with him by a covenanting faith, and in communion with him by devout affections. Our works are then good, and will bear the test, when the will of God is the rule of them and the glory of God the end of them; when they are done in his strength, and for his sake, to him, and not to men; and if, by the light of the gospel, it be manifest to us that our works are thus wrought, then shall we have rejoicing, Gal. 6:4; 2 Co. 1:12.

well you quoted up to John 3:20, so it's actually only one verse removed from what you quoted and two from what I quoted, and in the immediate context of the passage cited in the OP, so I can't imagine how you would think that's far off...

Let me examine your answer and I will reply shortly...

 

[glad4mercy]

That seems to be moving pretty far afield of the request you made to all Calvinists, but sure ...

John 3:21 NASB

21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”​

Matthew Henry Commentary on John 3:21

• Secondly, On the other hand, upright hearts, that approve themselves to God in their integrity, bid this light welcome (v. 21): He that doeth truth cometh to the light. It seems, then, that though the gospel had many enemies it had some friends. It is a common observation that truth seeks no corners. Those who mean and act honestly dread not a scrutiny, but desire it rather. Now this is applicable to the gospel light; as it convinces and terrifies evil-doers, so it confirms and comforts those that walk in their integrity. Observe here,
  • 1. The character of a good man.
    • (1.) He is one that doeth truth; that is, he acts truly and sincerely in all he does. Though sometimes he comes short of doing good, the good he would do, yet he doeth truth, he aims honestly; he has his infirmities, but holds fast his integrity; as Gaius, that did faithfully (3 Jn. 5), as Paul (2 Co. 1:12), as Nathanael (ch. 1:47), as Asa, 1 Ki. 15:14.
    • (2.) He is one that cometh to the light. He is ready to receive and entertain divine revelation as far as it appears to him to be so, what uneasiness soever it may create him. He that doeth truth is willing to know the truth by himself, and to have his deeds made manifest. A good man is much employed in trying himself, and is desirous that God would try him, Ps. 26:2. He is solicitous to know what the will of God is, and resolves to do it, though ever so contrary to his own will and interest.
  • 2. Here is the character of a good work: it is wrought in God, in union with him by a covenanting faith, and in communion with him by devout affections. Our works are then good, and will bear the test, when the will of God is the rule of them and the glory of God the end of them; when they are done in his strength, and for his sake, to him, and not to men; and if, by the light of the gospel, it be manifest to us that our works are thus wrought, then shall we have rejoicing, Gal. 6:4; 2 Co. 1:12.

Ok, so in context of this passage, would you say that coming to Jesus is synonymous with believing in Jesus?

...and would you say that men come to Jesus/ believe on Jesus because they practice truth or that they practice truth because they come to/believe onJesus?

In other words, is coming to/believing on Jesus the cause of them practicing truth or is the fact that they practice truth the determining factor of why they come to and believe on Jesus?

I want to see if your exegesis of this text is consistent with your exegesis of other texts.

 

[atpollard]

well you quoted up to John 3:20, so it's actually only one verse removed from what you quoted and two from what I quoted, and in the immediate context of the passage cited in the OP, so I can't imagine how you would think that's far off...

Your question that I endeavored to answer was ...

“On what basis does God damn sinners? Please provide scriptural citations for your answer. This question is a challenge to all Calvinists.”

John 3:21 has nothing to do with sinners or their damnation. It is a verse about the saved.

 

[atpollard]

Ok, so in context of this passage, would you say that coming to Jesus is synonymous with believing in Jesus?

...and would you say that men come to Jesus/ believe on Jesus because they practice truth or that they practice truth because they come to/believe onJesus?

In other words, is coming to/believing on Jesus the cause of them practicing truth or is the fact that they practice truth the determining factor of why they come to and believe on Jesus?

I want to see if your exegesis of this text is consistent with your exegesis of other texts.

In the context of THIS passage, I would say ‘neither’. It makes no statements of cause and effect, it simply presents statements of fact. He (saint) who practices the truth, comes to the Light because he has no fear of the light revealing his work ... just as the man who did evil avoided the light because he did not want his deeds exposed in the light.

The statement about deeds being wrought in God calls to my remembrance another verse about our good works ...

Ephesians 2:10 NASB For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[glad4mercy]

In the context of THIS passage, I would say ‘neither’. It makes no statements of cause and effect, it simply presents statements of fact. He (saint) who practices the truth, comes to the Light because he has no fear of the light revealing his work ... just as the man who did evil avoided the light because he did not want his deeds exposed in the light.

The statement about deeds being wrought in God calls to my remembrance another verse about our good works ...

Ephesians 2:10 NASB For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Ok, so the statement "you do not believe because you are not my sheep" is a statement of fact in the same manner as John 3:21

And who are Jesus' sheep? The ones who listen to His voice and follow Him. They were not His sheep because they do not listen to His voice.

Also, "all that the Father gives to me will come to me" is also a statement of fact in like manner as John 3:21. The Father gives to Jesus all who will come to Him. Simple statement of fact.

No one can come to me unless the Father draws Him, and I will raise Him up. Simple statement of fact that all who come to Jesus will be raised. It does not say all who are drawn infallibly come, it is talking about who are able to come, is ABILITY from inability

Also it does not say that all who are drawn will be raised up. Again, the drawn part is dealing with human inability. The ones who come are the ones Jesus is talking about when He says I will raise it up.

 

[atpollard]

Ok, so the statement "you do not believe because you are not my sheep" is a statement of fact in the same manner as John 3:21

"because" implies that it is explaining a cause-effect relationship. If Jesus said "My sheep believe and those not of my sheep do not believe" then that would have been a simple statement of fact. Jesus told us why they did not believe ... BECAUSE they were not his sheep.

Also, "all that the Father gives to me will come to me" is also a statement of fact in like manner as John 3:21. The Father gives to Jesus all who will come to Him. Simple statement of fact.

Yes, this was just a statement of fact ... it does not tell us why any of it happens, only that it is so.

No one can come to me unless the Father draws Him, and I will raise Him up. Simple statement of fact that all who come to Jesus will be raised. It does not say all who are drawn infallibly come, it is talking about who are able to come, is ABILITY from inability

I am not sure that I agree with this statement.

"No one can come to me unless the Father draws Him, and I will raise Him up."

Within the greater context of the verse, Jesus is responding to people who are following him around as part of the crowd and listening to the same message as Jesus' disciples ... but these people are grumbling and complaining. It is to this that Jesus responds 'Quit your complaining. No man can come to me unless the Father draws him.' First the Greek word 'draw' implies a compulsion by force like drawing a sword from a scabbard or drawing fish into a boat with a net or dragging Paul to the magistrate. There is no choice implied for the sword or the fish or Paul or the person drawn by the Father. The implication of Jesus comments to the crowd seem to be that they do not believe because they were not drawn by the Father.

Another point is that Jesus seems to promise that He will raise all that the Father draws ... again suggesting that the drawn are those who will be saved only.

So the verse in isolation is a statement of fact, but since it is given in direct response to a statement from the crowd, I think it can be linked to the verses before it to express more. It is part of a response to an implied question.

 

[glad4mercy]

"because" implies that it is explaining a cause-effect relationship. If Jesus said "My sheep believe and those not of my sheep do not believe" then that would have been a simple statement of fact. Jesus told us why they did not believe ... BECAUSE they were not his sheep.


Yes, this was just a statement of fact ... it does not tell us why any of it happens, only that it is so.


I am not sure that I agree with this statement.

"No one can come to me unless the Father draws Him, and I will raise Him up."

Within the greater context of the verse, Jesus is responding to people who are following him around as part of the crowd and listening to the same message as Jesus' disciples ... but these people are grumbling and complaining. It is to this that Jesus responds 'Quit your complaining. No man can come to me unless the Father draws him.' First the Greek word 'draw' implies a compulsion by force like drawing a sword from a scabbard or drawing fish into a boat with a net or dragging Paul to the magistrate. There is no choice implied for the sword or the fish or Paul or the person drawn by the Father. The implication of Jesus comments to the crowd seem to be that they do not believe because they were not drawn by the Father.

Another point is that Jesus seems to promise that He will raise all that the Father draws ... again suggesting that the drawn are those who will be saved only.

So the verse in isolation is a statement of fact, but since it is given in direct response to a statement from the crowd, I think it can be linked to the verses before it to express more. It is part of a response to an implied question.

"because" implies that it is explaining a cause-effect relationship. If Jesus said "My sheep believe and those not of my sheep do not believe" then that would have been a simple statement of fact. Jesus told us why they did not believe ... BECAUSE they were not his sheep.


Yes, this was just a statement of fact ... it does not tell us why any of it happens, only that it is so.


I am not sure that I agree with this statement.

"No one can come to me unless the Father draws Him, and I will raise Him up."

Within the greater context of the verse, Jesus is responding to people who are following him around as part of the crowd and listening to the same message as Jesus' disciples ... but these people are grumbling and complaining. It is to this that Jesus responds 'Quit your complaining. No man can come to me unless the Father draws him.' First the Greek word 'draw' implies a compulsion by force like drawing a sword from a scabbard or drawing fish into a boat with a net or dragging Paul to the magistrate. There is no choice implied for the sword or the fish or Paul or the person drawn by the Father. The implication of Jesus comments to the crowd seem to be that they do not believe because they were not drawn by the Father.

Another point is that Jesus seems to promise that He will raise all that the Father draws ... again suggesting that the drawn are those who will be saved only.

So the verse in isolation is a statement of fact, but since it is given in direct response to a statement from the crowd, I think it can be linked to the verses before it to express more. It is part of a response to an implied question.

So you don't think a person's motivation/purpose for doing something is a cause of their action? The verses in John 3:20-21 is talking about reasons why people do or do not come to the Light. Read them again and see.

So reasons why people do or don't do things have no causal effect on their actions? Is that your claim?

As to your comments on drawing, when God saved you, did He DRAG you kicking and screaming against your will, or did the gracious work of the Spirit work in you to make you willing.

everyone who believes experiences a Spirit wrought heart change ( repentance) that makes them willing to believe

 

[atpollard]

So you don't think a person's motivation/purpose for doing something is a cause of their action? The verses in John 3:20-21 is talking about reasons why people do or do not come to the Light. Read them again and see.

So reasons why people do or don't do things have no causal effect on their actions? Is that your claim?

[John 3:20-21 NASB]

20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."​

The question was: “On what basis does God damn sinners? Please provide scriptural citations for your answer. This question is a challenge to all Calvinists.”

I do not wish to be converted to Arminianism, or to again debate all of the favorite old territory. I know Wesleyan Arminianism as well as most Arminians and I admire much of what Wesley wrote. I simply cannot reconcile it with my own Pauline type conversion.


"So reasons why people do or don't do things have no causal effect on their actions? Is that your claim?"
No, that is not my claim. My claim is that it has no bearing on the basis for God damning sinners. We are saved or damned based on our belief in Jesus Christ ... not our good or evil deeds. It says so right here (among other places):

[John 3:18 NASB]

18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

 

[glad4mercy]

[John 3:20-21 NASB]

20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."​

The question was: “On what basis does God damn sinners? Please provide scriptural citations for your answer. This question is a challenge to all Calvinists.”

I do not wish to be converted to Arminianism, or to again debate all of the favorite old territory. I know Wesleyan Arminianism as well as most Arminians and I admire much of what Wesley wrote. I simply cannot reconcile it with my own Pauline type conversion.


"So reasons why people do or don't do things have no causal effect on their actions? Is that your claim?"
No, that is not my claim. My claim is that it has no bearing on the basis for God damning sinners. We are saved or damned based on our belief in Jesus Christ ... not our good or evil deeds. It says so right here (among other places):

[John 3:18 NASB]

18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

But you forget that John 3:21 is giving THE REASON why people do not come to the Light. Did you agree that coming to the Light is synonymous to coming to Jesus.

People do not come to the Light because their deeds are evil and the Light will expose their deeds.

So the reason why they will not come to the Light is the same reason they will not believe. So it does have bearing

Now you Calvinists say that God gives no opportunity for them to be saved, and that is why they will not believe. But Jesus said " these things I say that you might be saved and gave other reasons why they would not come.

A. If you had believed Moses you would have believed me.

B. You have not the love of God in you

C. You do not have His Word dwelling in you.

D. You seek the Glory of men rather than the Glory that is due to God alone

E. And Steven said " you always resist the Holy Spirit"

F. Paul said they had not attained unto righteousness because they sought it not by faith, but rather by the works of theLaw.

And I am not trying to make you an Arminian. I am putting out the antithesis to your argument to see what happens.

I am not fully settled on the question. So I am testing Calvinism. That's why I'm here.

The best argument you gave was "you do not believe because you are not my sheep". That one does give me pause.

But I believe that sheep are those who are made receptive to the Word of God, right?

And then I remember that John the Baptist was sent ahead to prepare the people for that very purpose. See John 1: 6-7. He came to bear witness of the Light, that all men might believe. God also gave the Law to prepare the people and bring them to Christ.

God knew His Sheep before the foundation of the world. They are His Elect, and will never perish. Those who do not believe are not His sheep, and He does not Know them. "Depart from me, I never knew you.

Blessings

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

You gave good verses for election ( which I believe in), but not for double predestination. And I NEVER argued for free will unto salvation. No one comes to Jesus apart from the pre-faith work of the Father through the Holy Spirit

Thanks for your reply. I don't think that I am understanding you correctly. God is sovereign and He can and does save His elect.

 

[glad4mercy]

Thanks for your reply. I don't think that I am understanding you correctly. God is sovereign and He can and does save His elect.

sorry about the confusion. Of course God has freedom to save whom He will. I thought you were asking me Free will unto salvation (for man) as in "man is free enough initiate his own regeneration

I am neither Pelagian nor semi Pelagian.

The way I understand it God always initiates regeneration. The way He initiates regeneratiin is He convicts and convinces. Man either responds or resists.

The Gospel either draws or repels. The Spirit is either yielded to or resisted.

Those who respond are regenerated by a monergistic act of God.

Calvinists wrongly call this view synergism, but that is a misnomer. Regeneration is an act of God alone, we put no energy or work into it. Receiving a gift is not a work.

Calling it synergism would be like if you asked me if you could build me a house for free, and I say yes, and then when you are finished BUILDING IT ALONE, if I say I helped build the house and put work and effort into it because I received your gracious offer. It is a nonsensical proposition to say that receiving God's gift is synergism

If you use the corpse argument, a corpse cannot reject a gift any more than he can receive it. In addition, it is impossible to reject a gift that is not intended for you.

God saves whom He will, and He wills to save those who believe.

 

[SovereignGrace]

John 3:18. Which did Jesus say?

A. Unbelievers do not believe because they are already condemned (even before they were born)

Or

B. They are already condemned because they do not believe

option B makes unbelief the CAUSE of ones condemnation. A makes unbelief the RESULT of ones condemnation.

Option B is what Jesus said in John 3:18.

Those who do not believe are already condemned. Do not add anything else to this. Those who die lost, died lost because they were unconverted sinners. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Thanks for your reply. I don't think that I am understanding you correctly. God is sovereign and He can and does save His elect.

YES!!! BTW, I love your signature. I have being listening to a CD of his for almost a month now on my way to and from work. It's 'Lyrical Theology Vol. 1'.

 

[Jesus Saves!]

As I've read through about two pages of post, some scripture came to my mind and also my experience with the Lord. I believe all died in Adam. We know all has sinned and come short of Gods glory. I believe many are made alive when they repent and believe in Christ for their only hope of salvation. As a child I was in many Christmas plays at a lot of different churches. I was taught about Jesus all my life. I always believed in him since I was big enough to believe. But, these beliefs weren't unto salvation. I remember hearing the gospel preached many times as a teenager and my heart was broken. Through the preaching, the Holy Ghost revealed unto my heart that I was lost and not the boy everyone said I was. Many times the lov of God would be drawing me and I wouldn't come to him. Then, one time I went to the altar because the Lord was drawing me there. But like Jacob I wrestled with the Lord and wasn't willing to turn from who. I was. The preacher ask me had the lord saved me. I said yes. I tried to read religiously but couldn't get no where. Eventually I was right back out in the world. I had even prayed the sinners prayer, but was still the same. Later in life the Lord took my mother. I started going to church. We were at the piano singing. The pastor was singing too and the Spirit of the Lors begin to pull me to himself. I said in my mind. Lord, now is not the right time, the Spirit was fading from me. A great fear came about me as He moved away like a gentleman. I said in my heart, Lord if you'll wait, I'm coming to you. I layed down the song book and took a few steps before falling in his arms of grace. I didn't quote any prayer, but I was willing to come to him whole heartedly without holding on to self. In a moment the burden of sin was rolled away and I became a new creature in Christ. I know many have different experiences, but I know what happened to me and how it happened. I was afraid this was my last opportunity for Jesus to pass by. Here is the scriptures.
Romans 10:14-18 KJVS
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? [17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [18] But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


2 Peter 3:9 KJVS
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hebrews 2:9 KJVS
[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Acts 2:21 KJVS
[21] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13 KJVS
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Revelation 22:17 KJVS
[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.