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Question to consider
- Thread starter glad4mercy
- Start date
glad4mercy
Active Member
All of them would be in the same boat, as those who are spiritual dead will be rejecting Jesus as the Savior. There will degrees of punishment though,a s God is fair and Just in all of His decisions!
I'm talking about their hardness to or receptivity to the Gospel. Would both groups be the same?
Adam condemned all of us who are found in Adam, and he saves all of us now found in Christ!But what made them
But was the increasing hardness because of Adam or because of their own doings? Were they born hardened or did they become hardened?
Don't get me wrong. God can save anyone, no matter how hard. But sometimes hardness is a judgement because of what you did, not what someone else did
glad4mercy
Active Member
Re. Post 40. How do you explain the fact that if Sodom had seen His miracles it would have repented and still been standing. They were exceedingly wicked, but the people Jesus was talking to were more hardened to the Gospel than Sodom would have been.
Why do you suppose?
Why do you suppose?
glad4mercy
Active Member
Adam condemned all of us who are found in Adam, and he saves all of us now found in Christ!
These points are not being disputed. Gods grace is for those who are lost in Adam so that they may be saved in Christ. So your response does not refute what I'm saying
Joel.alexander
Member
Don't forget that Paul in romans said that Sin is not imputed where there is no law. Romans 5:13.All in Adam are lost, the state that we were physically born into!
Would that mean that before the Mosaic Law, no one had a sin nature?Don't forget that Paul in romans said that Sin is not imputed where there is no law. Romans 5:13.
glad4mercy
Active Member
Would that mean that before the Mosaic Law, no one had a sin nature?
One of the purposes of the Law, besides the purpose of preserving Israel as a distinct nation, is to show people they need a Saviour. The Law acts as a catalyst, causing sin to increase and also causing sin to become exceedingly sinful
The Law is the diagnosis of sin. The Gospel is the cure.
As far as your question, yes people had a. Fallen nature before the Law of Moses. BUT where light increases, so does our accountability to God. When light increases and we reject it, our culpability increases. And our hearts become increasingly darkened.
Also remember that with people who do not have the Law of Moses, they still have a Law. See Romans 1-2
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Joel.alexander
Member
no to me it means , Romans 5:13 hcsbWould that mean that before the Mosaic Law, no one had a sin nature?
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,and death through sin,;in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned. Or have sinned 13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to a person’s account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam’s transgression.
This could be applied in more than one way.
1 Sin was dealt with differently before the law came through Moses. This is a debatable issue because it could imply that those who sinned before Moses gave the Law were not accountable. We would at least have to admit that they were less accountable than people today and that the death spreading to all men was referring specifically to physical death only in verse 12. That makes the most sense to me.
2 a person's sin or sin nature is not taken into account until he is old enough to hear and understand the Law. Either The law of Moses or the law of the conscience because Paul says also in
Romans 7:9-11
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
Together these verses tell me that people younger than the age of reason(babies and young children) are not accountable because they haven't heard or understood any law. Therefore sin or the sinful nature is not reckoned to their account.
glad4mercy
Active Member
no to me it means , Romans 5:13 hcsb
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,and death through sin,;in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned. Or have sinned 13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to a person’s account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam’s transgression.
This could be applied in more than one way.
1 Sin was dealt with differently before the law came through Moses. This is a debatable issue because it could imply that those who sinned before Moses gave the Law were not accountable. We would at least have to admit that they were less accountable than people today and that the death spreading to all men was referring specifically to physical death only in verse 12. That makes the most sense to me.
2 a person's sin or sin nature is not taken into account until he is old enough to hear and understand the Law. Either The law of Moses or the law of the conscience because Paul says also in
Romans 7:9-11
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
Together these verses tell me that people younger than the age of reason(babies and young children) are not accountable because they haven't heard or understood any law. Therefore sin or the sinful nature is not reckoned to their account.
Yes, sin causes physical death, in infants and others who are incapable of knowing right from wrong, due to them being in Adam, but nowhere does the Bible say God imputes sin to them in the sense of eternal punishment.
But the people who lived before the Mosaic Law did have a law. The Law of their conscience, as referred to in Romans 2.
God judges people according to the light they have received. Ubfortunately, no one passes that test on their own, we All fell short, and we all need Jesus. That's why we are to preach the Gospel to every creature, because no other way of salvation
We are sinners because of the Fall, but no one needs to stay that way. The Grace of God has appeared to all men. Therefore, if anyone does not believe, it is by their choice, not Adams. And if anyone perishes, it is nobodies fault but their own
Joel.alexander
Member
Yes, sin causes physical death, in infants and others who are incapable of knowing right from wrong, due to them being in Adam, but nowhere does the Bible say God imputes sin to them in the sense of eternal punishment.
But the people who lived before the Mosaic Law did have a law. The Law of their conscience, as referred to in Romans 2.
God judges people according to the light they have received. Ubfortunately, no one passes that test on their own, we All fell short, and we all need Jesus. That's why we are to preach the Gospel to every creature, because no other way of salvation
We are sinners because of the Fall, but no one needs to stay that way. The Grace of God has appeared to all men. Therefore, if anyone does not believe, it is by their choice, not Adams. And if anyone perishes, it is nobodies fault but their own
Yes you are in agreement with me. I explained that sin is not imputed to babies or those too young to understand. That was one of my arguments.
Romans 2 in my opinion though Is not talking about gentiles before the Law. It's talking about gentiles in general. I'm not sure how you can be so sure Paul is not talking about gentiles of his day. Gentiles not knowing the written Law like the Jews do. I'm not saying that it can't apply to people before the law was given but that is not what Paul is addressing to n Romans 2. There were no Jews before Abraham.
How could Paul be referring to those times before Noah since Adam where there was no Law for anyone and Jews only started after Abraham?
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Joel.alexander
Member
The problem then is what about those people between Noah and Moses. How could they be saved if Abraham was saved through faith. What about the others? It is not an easy question.
glad4mercy
Active Member
Yes you are in agreement with me. I explained that sin is not imputed to babies or those too young to understand. That was one of my arguments.
Romans 2 in my opinion though Is not talking about gentiles before the Law. It's talking about gentiles in general. I'm not sure how you can be so sure Paul is not talking about gentiles of his day. Gentiles not knowing the written Law like the Jews do. I'm not saying that it can't apply to people before the law was given but that is not what Paul is addressing to n Romans 2. There were no Jews before Abraham.
How could Paul be referring to those times before Noah since Adam where there was no Law for anyone and Jews only started after Abraham?
I agree that Paul was referring to Gentiles of His day in Romans 2. But there was unwritten law before the Jews. For example, Abraham said " if fifty righteous people are found (in Sodom)...". Joseph told Potiiphars wife, " how could I do this great evil, and sin against God". Etc
I am not disagreeing with your posts. You and I are in basic agreement. Just adding some bits and pieces here and there
glad4mercy
Active Member
The problem then is what about those people between Noah and Moses. How could they be saved if Abraham was saved through faith. What about the others? It is not an easy question.
They were saved by faith. Everyone who has ever been justified and saved has been justified and saved by faith.
The Law never saved anyone. It was a tool to govern and preserve God's people until the Promised Seed, and also to show people they were/are sinners in need of a Saviour.
Blessings to you
The problem then is what about those people between Noah and Moses. How could they be saved if Abraham was saved through faith. What about the others? It is not an easy question.
Why is it not an easy question?
glad4mercy
Active Member
Why is it not an easy question?
They were saved by faith. Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc were saved by faith, and they already had a sacrificial system, ordained by God in Eden, which did not take away sins ( the blood of bulls and goats never did), but pointed forward to Christ ( though they did not fully know and understand)
They had faith in God and this faith manifested itself in obedience to what God had taught them, and God in His forebearance received them, they walked with God, and their sins too were born by Jesus on the cross
Hallelujah
They were saved by faith. Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc were saved by faith, and they already had a sacrificial system, ordained by God in Eden, which did not take away sins ( the blood of bulls and goats never did), but pointed forward to Christ ( though they did not fully know and understand)
They had faith in God and this faith manifested itself in obedience to what God had taught them, and God in His forebearance received them, they walked with God, and their sins too were born by Jesus on the cross
Hallelujah
I know what they were saved by, I want to know what led him to such a statement.
glad4mercy
Active Member
I know what they were saved by, I want to know what led him to such a statement.
Ok
Joel.alexander
Member
Yes I agree that the well known ones were all saved by faith but what about the others that would have been lost in those times. We're those that didn't know about God that were far away doomed just because they didn't have faith. How would those in other nations all have knew who Jehovah was and recieve a promise to believe in?
My point is that how did they come to faith without a preacher or a command given to them to follow?
My point is that how did they come to faith without a preacher or a command given to them to follow?
glad4mercy
Active Member
Yes I agree that the well known ones were all saved by faith but what about the others that would have been lost in those times. We're those that didn't know about God that were far away doomed just because they didn't have faith. How would those in other nations all have knew who Jehovah was and recieve a promise to believe in?
My point is that how did they come to faith without a preacher or a command given to them to follow?
It was up to Shem, Ham, and Japheth to pass down the knowledge to their children, who in turn pass it down to their children, down the line. But man ended up corrupting the knowledge and choosing to serve the creature rather than the Creator.
It's just like today. If we don't teach our children, our grandchildren or great grandchildren may grow up in a dark place. And if we dont carry the gospel to the world, many people will not have a preacher to hear.
Nevertheless, they had natural revelation which they suppressed, so they are without excuse. Everyone receives a measure of light that they reject, and the lost will be judged accordingly
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